Any Buffy fans around to discuss some things that have annoyed me on rewatching?

[MrsBertMacklin]

Posting in Chat because this doesn't warrant a permanent thread. I fully admit to overthinking the issues below, I've been binge watching and may have lost perspective.

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

I appear to have offended you and that wasn't my intention. I'm sorry.

Misogny is a strong word. Wikipedia has it as a 'hatred or strong dislike of women or girls'. I don't think it describes Whedon, or his work. I think you could describe some things as not feminist, or problematic in its depictions of women or whatever, but when you say misogynist, to me that infers an active negative portrayal, and I don't think the intention is there. He says he is a feminist. He has done good work. He has good intentions. To then call him or things that he has done misogynist is, IMO, insulting.

Thanks for saying that, noble, and sorry if I was hasty.

I do agree misogyny is a strong word. I tend to use it to suggest there's a structural problem, rather than a one-off issue. So I'd say the problem is misogyny because it's a wider structure of sexist ways of representing strong women/women's sexuality. But that doesn't mean I think Whedon himself is 'a' misogynist. That's why I haven't called him one.

Joss didn't write Seeing Red, though it was written by a man.Spike is a fundamentally evil character at the time of this act and has no doubt raped women before killing them before.

According to James Marsters (via Wiki) the idea came from a female writer who had tried to force a boyfriend to have sex with her when they were breaking up. Hmmm. It was also supposed to be the trigger for Spike actually being horrified enough at himself to get his soul back. JM acknowledges it didn't really come off.

Buffy, wasn't Spike suffering in s7 not because of the attempted rape alone but because of the hundreds of murders he could now "feel"? Including the two Slayers, of course.

I think it is less of a "take back the abuser" situation than Willow/Tara. Did Buffy and Spike actually have sex in S7? I've forgotten.

Wiki again - in s6, Whedon directed and wrote "Once More With Feeling" but didn't direct or write any other episodes. In s7 he wrote the opening and closing episodes and directed the closing only.

I'm not a huge Whedonista btw and I think there certainly are sexist things in his work that he could have avoided - but some things will be down to others.

I think I'd use sexism or cultural or ingrained sexism. Unthinking sexism is when a generally good guy doesn't fully think through his actions. Misogny, to me is more actively negative. I would question whether someone who is not a misogynist could do something misogynistic.

I have never understood why Spike was so popular. Spike was vile. He was a vampire who raped and killed many people. Then he was chipped so he couldn't continue raping and killing humans, so he satisfied his lust for violence by killing demons instead. This brought him alongside Buffy and friends as they were fighting on the same side, but not for the same reasons. He then develops this all-consuming obsession with Buffy. He resorts to having sex with a robot that looks like her, which is totally grim. She is raised from the dead and is mentally ground down to the point where she actually sleeps with him, but refuses to form a relationship with him because he is vile and beneath her, and she just uses him. His obsession then leads to attempted rape, which, tbh, is not unexpected, because he's a vampire. He then goes off and gets a soul and becomes a gibbering wreck.

I'm not sure why there's a fuss made about the lack of acknowledgement of the rape of Buffy while he was a vampire, but not about the other rapes and murders. They were (relatively) happy to fight alongside a murdering rapist. Unlike Angel he didn't have a soul, he was still the vampire that did all those things.

Then he got a soul. Why should he not be forgiven for past transgressions when Angel was?

IIRC, Angel(us) tortured Dru into insanity whilst in a sexual relationship with her.

There's a weird phenomenon whereby the more feminist a thing is, the more some feminists want to emphasise the ways it fails to be feminist. This thread is a great case in point.

I take your point about terminology, noble. Though I do think a person who isn't a misogynist can do misogynistic things.

I do like Spike as a character. I am aware that's dodgy and conflicted, but I'm also aware it's not particularly uncommon.

NotDavid - yes, true! But I don't think it's weird - it's like we've been saying upthread, there's no fun talking about the ways obviously sexist things are obviously sexist, is there?

Something I like about Spike is that he sends up the smug side of 'good' and makes you think about what the 'tortured hero fighting evil' trope is doing. It's like a snarky commentary on the whole show, that stops it getting too earnest about itself.

Not read thread but here goes:

1. no new slayer after Buffys S 5 death - perhaps because its a mystical death? Thats why Willow can resurrect her and not Tara (in S6). But that is never explained in the show. Plus Faith wasnt made a slayer after death in S1. It was Kendra, Faith called when kendra killed in S2.

1. he looked through ehr file as part of an employer check before employing ehr as counsellor.

1. Mainly Giles I think. Also there is mention that Buffys Mum had insurance but it was mainly spent on medical bills and the summer buffy was dead - early in S6

1. Spike wasnt conned he meant to get his soul, for buffy 'what she deserves' its a mislead spike means she deserves a someone with a soul

1. Yeah good point - terible accent. but then Im also find spike constantly goes all california

6 kennedy - there are no words - except I guess bratty counterpoint to the loveliness of tara. They break up in the comics thank goodness

1. There is mention that hes in spain with his secretary 'living the cliche' and hasnt bothered to call.

And oh god do I miss buffy, Off to buy this months comic later today ;) (and my god Im 40 shouldnt I be too old for trips to forbidden planet)

Oh and on buffy's income there are, of course, her earnings at the Double Meat palace.

Oh, Spike has his moments, this scene in particular made me go all melty, the look in his eyes. But that doesn't change the raping, murdering and having sex with robots issue!

Anya's another one who gets let off the hook for some pretty awful things. Xander was set to marry her! The Scooby gang seem willing to overlook bad stuff in anyone who is useful to them.

Agree re Anya. Her murder of the frat boys was shocking (I think she offered her own life to reverse that ultimately?)

Just been reading thread a bit - I find spike v compelling - and its not just the abs (shirtless spike become a bit of a trope tho) I think its the mix of someone who is evil trying to be good, plus just the joy of having the narky commentary (a role spike shares over the seasons w cordelia and anya).

I think the rape attempt was the shows writers trying to communicate that spike is EVIL. Theres a great bit in S6 when tara and willow and buffy are discussing the hunchback of notre dame and Tara says yes he tries to be good but only to get into his love interests pants and tehrefore no good can come of it and altho we feel for him he cant get the girl. In that sense in S5-6 Spike is the hunchback. Then he gets his soul and that means pain.

I love the re-write of S7. 2 from script to the episode. The script has famous church scene with spike being old spike, nasty and crazy obsessed but in a way unchanged. Joss rewrote it and we have this crazy hurting emerging person who in all the babbling we realise desparately wants forgiveness but cant even ask for it hes so ashamed. Always makes me cry, always.

If you go on buffyworld you can downlodad the scripts - so interetsing. This is the biggest re-write and Im so glad they did it because it just sets a new trajectory for spike.

And Willow is a murderess...

From what I can remember ...

• When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

Doesn't it cause loads of potential slayers around the world to accidentally "activate"? And that is what drives the storyline in season 7?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs.

Buffy does end up working at the Doublemeat palace. She also tries her hand at other jobs (she does a day or two for Xander on his building site that goes wrong, tries working in the Magic Box). And Willow goes to college. Xander ends up doing a lot of the house repairs after Buffy's mum dies in his capacity as a building contractor-type person.

• why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul?

The demon believes that returning Spike's soul will destroy him. And it kinda does (he ends up with severe problems in the school basement). What Spike wants is to return to the old mass murderer Spike who kills slayers for fun, but the demon screws him -- and he ends up a terrible psychological mess.

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance.

I am pretty sure this is covered at one point in an episode. I think he has a new family after Buffy's mum and he split up, and there is obviously the problem with Dawn existing.

You are totally right about Angel's Irish accent, and Kennedy being annoying though.

I must say that this thread has been an eye opener for me, particularly Buffythereasonable's comments about the rape apologists (but i really love you, look how I'm suffering etc).

I looked at the attack in the bathroom and compared it to when they first had sex in the falling down building. If I recall correctly the prelude to the consensual intercourse, and even during it, was violence between them, so thought that you couldn't really blame Spike not understanding her lack of consent when she first pushes him away in the bathroom. To him it was just foreplay.

What I failed to do was look at it from Buffy's perspective and how she was violated.

In answer to PP about whether Buffy and Spike get together in S7, from memory they don't, at least you don't see it on screen. Throughout S7 they become closer but it is on a more spiritual/friendship level, as opposed to their previous sexually charged encounters. At one point when Buffy has fallen out with the potentials and leaves the house she spends the night with Spike (in a motel?), they lie together but I think it was purposefully left ambiguous as to whether there was more to it or not.

ON do they dont they I think its made fairly clear that tehre is no sex in the abandoned house night 'best night of spikes life'. But that its left deliberately slightly ambiguous in the final episode what happens between them. Both are shown sleeping clothed later but before the cut they stand facing each other and the camera holds longer than usual and it feels like the prelude to a sex scene. Joss explains in an interview that they wanted to give fans a space to project that into if they wanted but they didnt want buffy and spike getting together again in the official TV series after the rape scene.
I think its clear in the series that they arent just friends but also that they cant just get back together fater what happened

S7 was very confusing because of the duplicate Spike/Buffy stuff from the First!

They do! That night in the basement before the final battle. You never actually see it so.it's ambiguous but whedon said 'basically yeah they shag'

YY, I think it is interesting that both Angel and Spike are required to Do Penance for being evil, but Anya kind of gets off the hook with a little light emotional trauma (I mean, I guess you could say being jilted/killed is narrative 'punishment', but she doesn't have a long story arc of soul-searching).

Cassie - thats the iv altho I think he says that they do whatever it is in the viewers mind for them to do. Ie if you want them to shag thats what happened.

or maybe thats just what I heard. I must check that out again.