Any Buffy fans around to discuss some things that have annoyed me on rewatching?

[MrsBertMacklin]

Posting in Chat because this doesn't warrant a permanent thread. I fully admit to overthinking the issues below, I've been binge watching and may have lost perspective.

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

*Alien: resurrection

To the PP who mentioned the dynamic between Faith and Spike - I do recall reading that the producers used that scene where Spike is chained up in Buffy's basement and Faith comes down to talk to him, as a a screen test/audition for a possible further show featuring them.

I don't remember it all just that it was a really intense scene with a really strong 'vibe' between them, Buffy walks in and senses the atmosphere and is not happy.

Apologies if this is already mentioned as I haven't read all the thread - yet.

Bit of a cross post, These (it took me ages to actually post, as cat came and cried pitifully for food!)

Buffy definitely passes the Bechdel Test with flying colours, I reckon

Oh really, Slattern? That would have been great!

Closer, yes it definitely passes! Lots of great moments. I do find it interesting to discuss the places where it falls down too, sometimes I think they writers realised and went back and addressed them later.

The episode in season seven (with anyanka being vengency) where Buffy stands up to Xander about how he is so very hypocritical towards Buffy because he feels like he knows best all the time - it's one of my favourites. There is a lot of subtext about patriarchal attitudes even amongst good friends who generally aren't sexist in that conversation.

It might be a different episode, haven't watched season seven in a while.

Angelto5 sorry but the fact that wheedon wrote alien resurrection is no great recomnendation. That film sucked and made a travesty of the Ripley character. I (and most fans of Alien and Aliens) would rather forget it ever happened.

Whedon was a writer on Toy Story also.

Tara forgives Willow raping her by deception also. At least it's after Willow has acknowledged her wrong doing.

When Oz comes back for Willow, she says to him that there might be a time for them in the future (when she's turning a corner in Budapest one day, IIRC).

I do think the main issue with Kennedy was that the pace of the relationship was so forced. There was no time for either us or Willow to get to know her.

A female buffyverse character I liked was chanterelle/lily/anne.

She went from being a wannabe vamp/vamp worshiper to a successful woman in angel.

I'd heard that jw's mum died young and that's why he has 'issues' with women.

I'd have loved the vamp 'Sunday' to have lasted more than one episode. (S4 EP 1 or 2?)

Buffy is too small for her role imo. You see it in the early seasons where the stunt doubles are obviously much larger than her (esp the fight with spike in harsh light of day, s4).

If she was more like linda Hamilton in terminator 2 it would have been more realistic.

Looking back I don't like the way he makes Joyce a bit dim in s1&2 for not figuring out something's a bit off with her dd.

Then it's the mums (remember moo??) who are taken in by the demon in gingerbread. Which is pretty sexist too. Although I like the bit where oz says 'we are here to rescue you' as they fall to the ground!

I really missed oz.

I don't like the stereotyping of bad girls eg faith as promiscuous but good girls eg Buffy/willow chaste/monogamous. That's just lazy.

I liked Oz too

I liked the dialogue between Buffy and her mum when she was telling her about being the slayer - the whole "are you sure it's not just a phase, have you tried not being a slayer" stuff

I don't think joss has issues with women because his mum died. Seriously?

I think he's more aware than most of problematic tropes but he's ultimately making a series for today's society in today's society. He also didn't make every casting decision or direct every episode.

This thread (and DH being out all night) has inspired me to watch some Buffy on demand. Giles has just found Jenny after Angel murdered her

Xanya

I loved Buffy. I think it changed the way a generation spoke and tackled themes like love, loss and power in a way that hadn't been seen before.

But I really, really wish this had happened:

"While speaking at the Wizard World Chicago Convention in August 2004, Joss Whedon claimed that he had planned to bring Tara back from the dead at the end of Season Seven. According to Whedon, the episode would have centered around Buffy being granted one "life-altering" wish. Buffy would have spent the whole episode trying to decide what she wanted to do with the wish (including, possibly, restoring Angel's humanity). The episode would have ended with Buffy telling Willow that she'd just gotten a great new pair of shoes, and when Willow asked her if she used up her wish on new shoes, Buffy would have said, "No, silly!" and stepped aside to reveal Tara. This plan was abandoned when Amber Benson was unavailable for filming"

Behold that would have been a brilliant episode

Given how traumatised Buffy was at being dragged out of heaven and back to life, I can't imagine that she would want to do the same to Tara.

Sorry jeanne, I was just agreeing with you (i was tired last night).

I went through our DVDs and only have Buffy season 2 plus Angel 3 and 4. Everything else must have been in VHS (now in the bin).

noble I don't think anyone has described Whedon as an out and out misogynist, just said that he does some misogynist things - would you disagree with that?

If challenging those things that he gets wrong is enough for him to think 'sod this' then he's not much of an ally is he?

I have some sympathy for his quote about regretting making a statement about feminism, if only with the idea that once you have spoken out about politics you're expected to defend that stance, and if you're not a politician it's a little unfair to make every conversation about that. But I would hope that rather than bristling at every challenge, he could learn from some of the comments that have been made (not here, I doubt he's reading - just in case, love your work Joss!).

That's true about dragging Tara out of heaven, she wouldn't even have the belief that she rescuing her out of a hell dimension.

No, I don't think I would say he does misogynist things. I think if we go bandying about the word misogynist for Whedon, when he clearly isn't prejudiced against women, and has actively promoted women in a way that is exceptionally unusual in his line of work, then what word does that leave to describe the acts of people who are genuinely contemptuous of women, like, say, Dapper Laughs?

I don't think writing about rape makes one a misogynist. I don't think writing about broken women makes one a misogynist. I might look at Avengers 2 and think 'where are the women, Joss?' but that absence of feminism isn't, to me, an act of misogyny on his part. There might be prejudice against women at the root of it, but I don't think it is his.

I don't think it is clear he's not prejudiced.

He probably is.

Most people are. If we don't admit that, then we can't properly criticise acts like Dapper Laughs, that's the point.

I don't think writing about rape makes one a misogynist either, though (and I certainly didn't say it did. I write quite a lot about rape myself).

How can we properly criticise Dapper Laughs if we've already used the word misogyny on far less? Or are you suggesting that they are of the same order of magnitude? It's like using the same word to describe Jimmy Savile as someone who mildly irks you.

And if writing about rape and broken women is fine, then where's the problem?

No, of course they're not of the same order of magnitude, and obviously, that's how we criticise DL. By pointing out they're misogynists of a high order of magnitude.

It is not like using the same word to describe Jimmy Savile as to describe someone who annoys me. Savile was a paedophile and an abuser.

It's pretty rude of you to claim I'm belittling those things when you have no evidence whatsoever to suggest it. I think it's also pretty disgusting to bring it into this debate.

I'm not up for talking about this on what was a nice thread. Sorry if that upsets you. If you want to split hairs about why other people Whedon isn't a great feminist then maybe start another thread about it and you might find people more patient than me who'll chat.

What words would you like us to use to describe the number of ways in which Whedon shows dodgy attitudes towards women?

Again, we are not saying he is a terrible terrible misogynist. He has done some wonderful work which made great strides in the world of female characters on screen. We are just also interested in how the societal norms of low level misogyny show themselves through someone who is often held up as a good and noble feminist.