Any Buffy fans around to discuss some things that have annoyed me on rewatching?

[MrsBertMacklin]

Posting in Chat because this doesn't warrant a permanent thread. I fully admit to overthinking the issues below, I've been binge watching and may have lost perspective.

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

Have you seen Geena Davis's work in female representation in tv and film? That woman is a ledge.

www.thegeenadavisinstitute.org/

I'm finding all the discussion on feminism in Buffy really interesting. I saw it, 20 years ago, as a real departure from the 'norm'. Where programmes had previously revolved around the men, with women as support role - so the mother, teacher, girlfriend etc but rarely as the lead.

It was really refreshing to see a petite girl in a position of power. With other people around her, including other girls, who were flawed but all there for a reason and not as a token girl.

I do get that there is still sexism in it. But there is sexism in everything and it will only change a bit at a time. I think Buffy was a game changer, allowed women to be portrayed in new ways.

Loved it.

Oh, I am so glad you said that, tidler, because I was worrying I'd been putting people off!

I loved it for exactly the same reasons as you. Especially for the way she never changes her body much - she is always small. Yes, ok, I know she is thin and it could be an issue, but as a very small-built woman, it seemed positive to me. Before that I'd seen kick-arse women but they'd been built on Xena lines.

And I loved that it showed women being funny and not getting slapped down for being funny.

Not off putting at all jeanne. Just wish I was as eloquent!

I know Buffy was thin, but with a few exceptions in one or two seasons I don't remember her as anorexic thin. Certainly not in the first season. I don't have an issue with the weight of the lead characters in general.

Agree much better as they were than all pumped up as xena was.

Yy to the funny. Cordelia was hilarious 'i don't want to interrupt your downward mobility' (or something along those lines).

No, you were eloquent - I felt that was such an important part of the whole series. And I agree with you. The actress has quite a slight frame, but of course some people are like that. It's not the same as being slim to the degree you'd worry about health issues.

I think the issue I do have, is that while they all look quite healthy, they are all on the slim side, and it'd have been good to see a better range of bodies. But, as noble points out, it's not exactly easy.

I love Cordelia's lines. And I love that there was room in that show for her to be rude and shallow without it being 'the women character being rude and shallow' - because there were so many other women, and she was set up so much as Xander's opposite number. That was a really subtle bit of writing, to show them bickering and show that men and women really are not very different.

Empire magazine had a 100 Greatest Movie Characters poll voted for by readers and there were 10 female characters. 10!!! Optimus fucking Prime was on there! Pretty much every main character from the LOTR trilogy but no Eowyn (wouldn't particularly have wanted Arwen but Eowyn kicked ass!). But other than her I struggled to think who should have been there.

Princess Leia isn't even on it!

Yep, no Leia, you wouldn't have wanted to push Groot off the list would you? [hmmm]

There are more Harrison Ford characters than women in the top 5!

I loved Cordelia. I really liked how her character developed in Angel, too.

When did Carpenter get pregnant? I can't remember Cordy leaving Angel, but then I did watch it about 15 years ago.

pointy that's it though, you couldn't not have Indy and Han in the top 10 could you? There are some weird entries on the list but most of them are great characters. The issue is the dearth of good female movie characters to choose from.

I think she was pregnant in Angel. I seem to remember it was written in as a story line.

She gave birth to Zoe from firefly after sleeping with Pete Campbell. It was a bit weird.

SleepIsOverrated - I think whiny!dawn is partly because Michelle T was actually a teenager, whereas the others, in fine US teen drama tradition, were in their 20s. It would have been weird for a 26 yr old man to be that childish!

Buffy's finances: I'm sure Giles helps out with her, and Willow's rehabilitation - doesn't he give Buffy a big cheque in S6/7?

re:accents - I always find it ironic that out of the 4 vampires, Spike, Dru & Angel/us were all born in the 18th/19th c's so could conceivably have been American, yet all 3 had terrible British/Irish accents. Yet Darla was the only one old enough to have had to actually been born & lived in Britain but was the only one had an American accent???

And how come Spike & Dru kept their accents but Angel dropped his halfway through the 20th c? Did the gypsies curse his accent too?

More pressing issues: A town of app 30,000 with a huge death rate has an amazing amount of facilities, a college, multiple high schools, an ice rink, several clubs, huge mall, museum, docks, AN AIRPORT, a ZOO.....

What annoyed me was after S4 Willow was just gay. Never any mention of bisexuality or sexual fluidity - despite the fact she had a fairly serious relationship with Oz, crushed heavily on Xander for years, and even talked about having a crush on Giles when she was a teen. I'm all for her being gay and liked Tara - but I don't like the way they completely erased part of her character like that and never referred to it again.

Cordelia was rude and shallow. But she was also bright and feisty. I agree it was great that she could be all of those. She changed quite a lot in Angel too.

It doesn't surprise me that there were so few female characters in the 100 list. Women either appear as story dressing (but not the main event), as nurturing or as a token.

Films that feature women as a key role are generally aimed at a female audience and are not considered main stream.

Hollywood is deeply sexist.

What annoyed me was after S4 Willow was just gay.

Yes, but isn't that US TV? I heard that on Grey's Anatomy, Shonda Rhimes who wrote and created the show was pushed to show a character as lesbian or straight, not bisexual. And there are very few bisexual characters.

I would be fine with it if we ever saw some acknowledgment of why, though. But we don't.

tilder - YY, I didn't mean to suggest she was only rude and shallow. I just liked that she got to be those things without it defining 'woman' on that show, the way it might if she'd been the only female character.

Really interesting discussion!

I think Whedon is very good at writing examples of how unfair sexism is, and how little is assumed of women, but I think he enjoys playing with scenarios too much to always think through the implications of how women are being presented iyswim.

For eg, I never really liked Buffy and Spike going back to being close friends eventually. I just can't see that ever conceivably happening.

I love Spike's dynamic with Faith though. I wish they'd done more of that.

That's terrible about Charisma though!

I'm still uncomfortable with Whedon, who has made lots of shows with bucket-loads of decent female characters being described as a misogynist.

Ok you could argue that it's the default state of anyone raised in a patriarchy (or would it just be the men?), but it's still pretty insulting to use it to describe someone making great strides to raise the representation of women on screen. Wouldn't you just think 'sod this, you can't win'?

I just read an article this week about bisexual representation in media (or not as the case may be) (not as academic as it sounds, it was probably on buzzfeed ) and now I can't find the bloody link.

Did the gypsies curse his accent too?

Well, if they did, their curse improved his accent. I don't know where the hell he is meant to be from in Ireland. But, as mentioned upthread, Kendra had the worst accent, truly horrific.

I think the English potential should win worst accent prize. She had hardly any lines but they were all horrendous.

How hard is it to find a young British passable actress to dub over, eh?

I thought Buffy did riff quite a bit on the whole "little girl able to stand up for herself despite appearances / expectations" theme, even down to the opening sequence of the very first episode where we know that we are watching a vampire show and there's a teenage couple sneaking off alone with the boy encouraging the girl to come along... Pop fiction would have the girl as the victim, but no, she's the vampire who devours the boy. And countless new vamps emerging from their grave see SMG as an easy target before they realize their mistake

Just had a quick look on the 100 list mentioned by a PP & glad to see Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise at number 5! Joss Whedon wrote the script for Alien:resorection!

According to imdb he also wrote a few episodes of Roseanne-maybe it is where he met Glenn Quinn(RIP) who played Doyle in Angel.

I also feel sad when I see the host/lorne in Angel ,knowing he is no longer with us!

That's what I mean Closer, I think whedon is very good at that kind of writing.

But no so good at thinking about how dollhouses entire concept contains so much rape and needs extremely careful handling.