Meet the Mormons

[MiloSimpson]

Is anyone watching this? I'm a little bit to be honest. I've realised that I know v little about the religion.

Wonder why they have complained about the programme. does anyone know the issues they have raised?

No it does not include baptised dead people.

I don't understand the hoo ha about baptising the dead, don't catholics give last rites etc, isn't it the same thing?

I guess if you are of a different faith or of no faith and then someone baptises you to a different faith when you are dead then you might get annoyed if you could. I know a few people have said to me that they would go mad if I baptised them when they were dead. You are supposed to ask the nearest living relative for permission before you baptise someone unless the died a long time ago.

I had a really weird experience after I baptised some members of my family. Myself and dh had travelled from Ireland to Preston for a few days. We always fight when we are at the temple for some reason. I was after doing baptisms for my Granny and her sisters and brothers and sealing them to their parents. When we were leaving the temple we asked someone to call us a cab. I was in a mood and dh was chatting away to the cab driver. He told us he had grown up in NI but every year he used to visit with his Mother to a place in the South. Dh said to him that I was from the same county. He said yeah but the place I used to go to was way out in the Country and he named it and I said my Granny was from there and he said yeah but this was a really small place in the middle of nowhere and he named it and I said yeah thats were my Granny lived. He said it was a little lane called legga lane and I said yeah my Granny grew up on that lane. It turned out his mother and my Granny had been best friends growing up and lived next door to each other. He then mentioned this old character called the hillman. I had not heard him mentioned since I was a child, but I had often heard my granny talking about him. The next day when I got home I rang my Mother to tell her about the guy I had met and as I was recounting the conversation I mentioned to her about the Hillman and she said to me that he had died that day.

I am not a spiritual person but I did get a shock when she told me that. Some coincidence.

I'm not a Catholic but Last Rites are given to a Catholic when they are close to death, but I believe they still have to be able (are supposed to be able) to respond.

If a relative was Jewish and died in the Holocaust in WWII, I can see why people would be very upset that someone dared to "baptise" them after death. If someone died for their faith, then you don't even want the meaningless symbolism of someone "converting" them after death. On the other hand I can see why Mormons might do it, if they thought it would save them from eternal torment - however it does strike me as a bit arrogant to do so.

Oh blimey,I misunderstood. So non mormons are baptised after death?

I think they had to bring in a law against non-Mormons being baptised posthumously Dame. I read that they baptised Anne Frank . So many Jews died for and because of their faith and to do this is an insult to their suffering imo. I'm an atheist but from Orthodox Jewish parents. No one in my family died in the Holocaust as far as I'm aware, but I'm horrified at the insensitivity of Jews being baptised into the Mormon Church.

The agreement at present is that no-one who is not a direct ancestor can be baptised. However I have heard that some over enthusiastic people/congregations have not always abided by this (and it could still be insensitive - even if it was an ancestor killed in the Spanish Inquisition etc.).

Audrina Number for members include all active members, their children (under 8), and all inactive members, all children of record who haven't been baptised until they reach 110yrs old.

The major growth of the church is coming from members children - active member numbers across the world are approx. 4.5 - 5 million, certainly not the 15 million they like to claim.

As regards baptisms for the dead (and other ordinances) Mormons believe that only Mormons can get into the higher levels of heaven, so everyone needs to be baptised. The rules state that the person must have been dead a year, that if they are recently deceased if there are living descendants, they must give permission for this. This rule is generally not followed.

Think of a famous or infamous person from history who's birthdate and deathdate are known - they've had this done.

So, yes Anne Frank has been 'baptised'. So has Adolf Hitler and the Nazi leadership. Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Stalin, Lenin - the list goes on.
The unofficial Mormon thinking on this is that the person can reject this in the afterlife, but are relatively uncaring that it's highly disrespectful in this.

As for the other ordinances, Mormons will also proxy marry the deceased, and carry out a proxy sealing, which binds them together for eternity.

If a person is proxy baptised, but not married or sealed, then doctrine states that they will be assigned a partner in heaven - a man will have wives, and a woman will be given to a man (along with other women).

Does that mean lots of men have "married" Marilyn Monroe (or other famous beauty)?

No, women are only allowed one husband. Marilyn will be one wife among many.

Just as a side note - Mormon doctrine states that if a man attains the highest level of heaven, he is given his own planet to be a god over for eternity. His wives get to have millions of spirit children (to populate that planet) for eternity.

There is a part of Mormon doctrine that states that the Mormon god lives on a planet called Kolob.

Just realised that I worded a previous sentence poorly. Instead of

Number for members include all active members, their children (under 8), and all inactive members, all children of record who haven't been baptised, until they reach 110yrs old.

It should read

Number for members include all active members, their children (under 8), and all inactive members, all children of record who haven't been baptised, are counted living members until they reach 110yrs old.

Kolob reversed is bolok. Just thought i'd point that out

They baptised Adolf Hitler so that he could get into 'the higher levels of heaven'. How fucked up is that? What on earth was the motivation?

It's all such absolute hogwash, how can they seriously believe this stuff? Doesn't even make its own internal sense anyway. For example if each man gets to have several wives in the spirit world (shows that polygamy is still close to their hearts really, in spite of official LDS disapproval) - it just doesn't add up logically, since roughly equal numbers of males and females are born.

And didn't Jesus say there will be no marriage in heaven?

Nadia when you grow up surrounded by things like this, you don't see just how unusual it really is, because you have nothing to judge it against.

The doctrine is basically such that they think that not everyone will reach the highest heavens, so the numbers will work themselves out. Any not making it all the way to the top end up becoming sexless angels, servants of those who do make it.

There's a lot of obfuscation about polygamy. It was officially outlawed in 1890, but privately polygamy was still being carried out into the early 1900's - with these being approved by the church leaders at the time.

The motivation is being the one who baptised Hitler. As far as I can recollect, he's actually been baptised several times.

And as a side note, the Mormons actually baptised Jesus Christ in 2010 - along with Mary Magdalen, then proxy married & sealed them together for eternity. This was done in the Salt Lake Temple in April 2010.

So you mean church members will get spiritual brownie points for baptising dead people and the more famous the better? But why do they think Adolf Hitler would deserve to enter heaven anyway? Disturbing if they think he is no different from anyone else, but I thought that even a devout Mormon would see that exceptions should be made in some cases?

Of course its all ridiculous anyway, but now seems to be curiously amoral nonsense as well!

I would go so far as to say that Mormons are not really Christians at all, they seem to take very little notice of what Jesus actually said and did, in favour of rubbish spouted by 19th century American conmen. (Joseph Smith was apparently convicted of fraud, and that's in the historical record). No doubt he would be very happy to know he's still getting away with fooling ever growing numbers of people 100 years or more since his death.

At least some - like yourself Tapir had the good sense to get away!

Tapirbackrider aren't there some rebel sects that do still practise polygamy?

Nadia I started to look for answers in my early 30's, woefully late but thankfully I was out before my children were involved.

Larry There are a lot of offshoots that practise polygamy, in fact there are a lot of offshoots period. There were a number of schisms in the early church, and breakaway groups left to carry on their own form of Mormonism. The Community of Christ (used to be the RLDS) is one of the offshoots who have a better view of equal rights, and the priesthood & leadership are able to be held by both sexes.

Among the more notorious of the polygamous ones is the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) currently run by Warren Jeffs - who is in prison for child sex crimes.

Ah yes, I do remember reading about Warren Jeffs. I think I had a book about a woman who escaped a polygamous marriage but I can't find it.

There've been a good few written - the immediate one that springs to mind would be the book written by Carolyn Jessop "Escape".

Funnily enough, the film rights for this were bought, and Katherine Heigl, another former Mormon, announced that she will be producing and starring in the film.

I think that's the one I had. Must have lent it to someone.

If you ever get curious, then I can highly recommend a book called "No man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie.

It's a non-hagiographic biography of joseph smith, and very illuminating.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man_Knows_My_History