Game of thrones series 4: SPOILERS ALLOWED

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Book and tv series spoilers allowed.

I think Tywin was poisoned because there's so much stuff about the smell when his body lies in state. I have a harder time believing Shae was planted in his bed, because why doesn't she explain that to Tyrion? I find it easier to accept Tywin is simply being a hypocrite. It makes psychological sense to me that you punish your child most severely for the vice that you share.

Dance doesn't have to be naked - he can be wearing a dressing gown. Winter is coming, after all.

It will be a shame if they change it too much - it's such a fantastic scene and sets Tyrion up psychologically for what follows in book 5. I hope they haven't made him too nice - his complexity is what makes him so fab.

at winter is coming.

Was he naked in the books ? I always imagined him in a naice silken dressing gown gold with a red lion obviously. Or is it red with a gold lion ? He will be sitting down anyway, so it's not like we will see anything.

I think if he was to sleep with a prostitute it actually makes sense for it to be Shae, it would be a real fuck you to Tyrion, but you say LRD, he just doesn't seem the sort. he despised his son and Dad for sleeping with women he didn't approve of, why would he do it ? Unless he is the sort who doth protest too much. who knows.

Ok, I checked... He had his bedrobe hiked up around his hips. It is interesting to think he was poisoned before dying. I like that theory!

I had never heard of the poison theory before but it makes sense, especially regarding the unexplained smell.

The Shae things is odd but I always put it down to Tywin showing he could have whatever he wanted or an illustration of the shallowness of Shae, she betrayed Tyrion and moved onto someone more powerful. Even more of a kick in the teeth for Tyrion, no wonder he was angry.

It's tricky with the tv one because Shae isn't as shallow. The actress has said she thinks Shae actually does love Tyrion.
She is very good and I love the way she adds depth, but with the shallow Shae you get the message that buying women really isn't the best way for Tyrion to find love, and I kind of liked that.

I wonder if he will say 'Wherever whores go' on the TV program. It seemed like there might be more meaning to that line so will be interesting if they leave it in or not.

I think Tyrion will die in the end. I do think he will get to see the dragons and I think he will die a heroic death.

I can't wait for the dragons to come to Westeros!

Nooooo!! Tyrion CAN'T die!!

The troubled antihero always dies. It is known!

Yeah, but that's the thing isn't it ... he's fucked around so much with what we 'know' about who dies, we don't know!

Though I think Tyrion will die just because GRRM likes killing people and I think Tyrion's storyline has become deeply boring by the end of the last book. Stealing tunip's 'GRRM kills boring people' theory ...

(Thank you for the robe details!)

I just hope he doesn't go down with greyscale.

I'm currently reading the AWOIAF thread about last night's episode to find out how they did the trial.

In that case, I shall see you back on the thread later, as I'm going to watch it tonight.

I won't put any spoilers here for tonight's episode.
I wish we had Sky (or however it is you get to watch it).

the sky isn't working, the sky isn't working.

Ok can we talk about it yet?????

I know Jamie is a bastard but he genuinely loves his brother. I thought the scene with his father was v touching and he looked so pleased with himself at the end! The actor is doing a really good job IMO.

As for Shae... Didn't she say last season that she loved Sansa and would do anything to protect her? So much for that... Talk about throwing her to the lions (I was going to say wolves ).
The look on Cersei's face whenever Sansa's name was mentioned was priceless.

Remind me none of this happens in the books right?

Shae totally betrays tyrion in the book. In the book her motivation is gold, I'm not sure about the series. Rejection maybe. The trial by combat doesn't happen I don't think, but let's just say I am really looking forward to next week! Varys plays a significant part...

Shae's motivation (in both book and TV) could be simple fear for her life. It's quite possible that she loves him - but not enough to die rather than betray him. We know that Tywin would kill her in a minute if she didn't cooperate.

Tyrion has to "kill" Tywin on TV (quotes because I also believe he was already dying) - it would play havoc with GRRM's character arc if he didn't. They could have avoided having him kill Shae, but they went so heavy on her betrayal at the trial that I guess they will do that as well.

Some great acting in this last episode!!

I think the trial by combat will happen because there is an episode called The mountain and the viper and we have seen clips of it in the previews ;) I will really miss Oberyn though.

I forgot about the Greyscale. Poor Tyrion!

The next episode in called "Mockingbird", so I guess it is time for someone to fly!

Oh is that fight tyrion's trial? I had forgotten that. Shame.

I know she betrays Tyrion in the books (and also shags his dad) but I didn't remember specifically turning on Sansa.
I seem to remember she wasn't handmaiden and didn't know Sansa whereas in the series she makes a point of saying she wants to protect her only to then claim the whole plot was instigated by her.

Oberyn dies rather stupidly in the trial by combat doesn't he? Such a shame I love his character in the series. He seems to have the perfect balance of cunning and 'goodness'.

What is that about the greyscale? Is that something that happens in the later books? I have to confess once Tyrion escapes KL his storyline gets so tedious I blanked out a lot of what happens. Just like I did with the Iron Islands and Meereen

I thought the trial was so well done, the betrayal of Tyrion so painful. I was never sure in the book what Shae's motivation was, I agree it could be self preservation, I think in the book they tried to make it rejection but I actually think Shae would have been clever enough to work out Tyrion was trying to protect her.

Tywin has to be killed, it's a pivotal point in the book as it takes away the glue of the Lannisters, even though he is hateful to his family he somehow holds it together.

I love the theory he was poisoned too. I wonder if the show will enlighten us at all.

But what was all the Yara / Reek almost rescue all about? It felt very pointless except as a plot device to remind us about those characters because, of course, they are not really in Book 3. I much preferred the books where Theon disappears and the realisation of who Reek is. Obviously they couldn't do it exactly that way in the programme but this just felt a bit clunky.

Yes that didn't happen in the books either. Who knows what that interlude was for! Hopefully it will become clear.

IIRC in the book Shae is given a kitchen maid job abd flirts/falls for a singer who Tyrion has killed (v. nastily). I think she may also be detained secretly and tortured/whipped(?) before the trial - good reasons to betray TYrion.

I never understood her being in Tywin's bed either. Interesting idea about poison. I just thought the smell was a take on Tywin not shitting gold. The book does go on about the small a lot though.

Sad they have not shown the relationship between Circe and Ellaria. I liked that.

I think Tyrion tries to make her a kitchen maid, but she refuses to do that because it's too much like hard work and she won't be able to wear her pretty clothes, so he gets her a job as Lollys's handmaiden and then moves her to waiting on Sansa.

In the trial she says Tyrion and Sansa plotted Joffrey's death together.

Tyrion is exposed to greyscale in book 5, when he's on the river boat and they're attacked by Stone Men and one lunges at him and knocks him in the river. GRRM sets it up so he could plausibly either get it or not get it - he bathes in vinegar afterwards which is supposed to help.

I do wonder if one possible end for Tyrion is him being victorious in most ways but ending up unable to have sex either because greyscale physically stops him or because it would put his partner at too much risk of catching it.

I guess the Yara thing was to show how completely Theon has left the building.

I'm guessing they won't show the whole Mountain turning into Frankenstein's monster sub-plot. Or will they? It was very strange!