Protecting our Children, Part 2

[Lilka]

Thought I'd start a new thread because the other one was so big

Anyone else going to be watching?

i'm sorry i feel bad for splurging that out here but these girls really do exist and really are totally reliant on what society offers them and i'm afraid what we offer them is shit - or at least was 15 yrs ago. and it is a general theme of seeing anti social or abnormal 'behavior' when actually for the fucked up demented states people grew up in their behaviour is sometimes a pretty rational response.

we remain blissfully unaware of just how bad things can be. we can't imagine (nor want to) being used for sex as a toddler, we can't imagine never having a single safe person in our childhoods. it's so easy to judge without any clue of who we would be if someone had never said ooh buttons, one two three - you know? the most basic things we take for granted as we chat to and take care of our preschoolers let alone being abused and used for sexual gratification from that age.

no they shouldn't be left to care for children but nor should they be left to rot in their own despair and estrangement. i don't know. will shut up now - too many flashbacks to working with abused children.

i'm so sorry - that is horrible stuff to share and i shouldn't have splurged it out irrelevantly on this thread but she just came back to me so clearly.

the things she told me and the way she shared stuff with me will never leave me i guess and has definitely deprived me of thinking it's all about effort and once you're a grown up it's down to you and you're responsible etc etc.

as hard as fc might be, as challenging the outcomes might be, the reality is there are kids out there for whom even our worst case scenario of state care will be a million times better than the alternative. sorry to sound dramatic

swallowedafly - I'm horrified that you were put in that working situation when you were only 18 yourself! I really hope that since then you've been able to process some of what you heard and witnessed and that you've had better / more supportive workplaces since..........

it was WAY too much responsibility dotty and i knew that but couldn't get anyone to listen. she hadn't been assessed or... inducted or whatever you'd call it and was bed ridden on her back. one on one. way too much - i remember crying to the ward sister one day and still just being ignored and it being denied there was anything untoward about it.

it made up my mind to stop working there despite feeling glad i'd made a difference to this girl. it seemed like i was surrounded by either broken fucked up people who weren't coping and doing a good job or cold hearted people who coped because they didn't give a shit and lived on sick jokes. didn't have examples of people who cared yet maintained some degree of boundaries and self care and yes, i was very young.

but to this day the most shocking thing remains that they called it a behavioural ward - it wasn't mentioned but easy to discover that every single patient on there was the victim of horrendous physical and sexual abuse. their behaviour was totally rational given the reality of their lives. it was a ptsd ward in reality but instead of treating them for the horrendous trauma they'd been through and the toll that had taken on their brains at key developmental stages they were treated as naughty girls whose behaviour was unacceptable.

right going to shut up and try to forget about it before i spend all night dreaming about those girls and the hells they lived through.

Swallowedafly, thanks for your post. it is absolutely crazy that gov will pour money into court proceedings to 'assess' these girls when they become mothers and state wants to take their children away, but you try and get funding for therapy and there is NOTHING. It's like constantly weighing someone but never giving them any food. I worry the cycle may never be broken for some families. Intervention needs to happen much earlier and there needs to be proper investment in support services.

sorry - i really went off on one about all this last night

spero i agree that intervention needs to be fast, whatever compassion i feel for the parents in these programmes i support the decision to take the children otherwise it all just repeats. but then we have to really support those kids and have decent programmes/interventions geared at helping them unlearn what has been 'taught' to them by abusive or dysfunctional homes and to learn normal, healthy boundaries and ways of relating and do lots of work building them up and trying to bridge the gaps in their development caused by their early home experiences.

Mmm - nice idea swallowedafly but somewhat unrealistic I fear. I don't think people can "unlearn" what has been "taught" them by abusive parents. These children lived that life with abusive/neglectful parents or witnessed great deal of domestic violence, and they did what every child does - tries to survive in the best way possible. Children have different coping mechanisms, some will shout and cry and be destructive etc whilst others will keep quiet so that they will not attract their parent's attention, as a way of keeping safe. These are not conscious decisions obviously.

You may or may not know about "frozen awareness or frozen watchfulness" and this means the child is always on the lookout for something bad to happen to them and watch the parent in a "frozen" kind of way. I have actually seen this in a 4 month baby and it was very chilling - she lay very still in the pram and did not move or cry though wide awake and her face was white. I had heard the theory in my sw training many years ago but to actually see it (in such a young baby) was very chilling.

The years of abuse/neglect will have taken it's toll on the child - they have learned that adults are not to be trusted (again unconsciously) and the damage is done right from the moment of birth. In fact there is evidence now that a foetus can be emotionally harmed in utero if there is DV between the parents or other problems that cause tension and anger in the mother.

The most important years of a child's life are from 0 - 3 - they lay down the foundation stone for the rest of his/her life, and this is when pathways are formed in the brain and if those pathways are unhealthy they will not be altered through the life span. I know this sounds a bit far fetched and I haven't explained it very well, but there is a book explaining all this called "Why Love Matters" by Sue Gerhart which is a paperbook available on Amazon.

I am not saying that the abused/neglected child can never be helped at all, but obviously the sooner they are removed from the parents the better. The most important thing that foster carers and adoptors need to know and understand is the theory of Attachment as these children will have insecure/anxious attachments to their birth parents, (have learned that adults are not to be trusted, as their needs for soothing, feeding, keeping warm etc etc have not been met. SO the new carer has to understand this and tht love is not enough - they need to be extremely patient and give the child one to one attention and it can take a long time. There was an adoptor onhere saying that it took here child 3 years before she felt safe enough to climb on her lap. Also it needs to be understood that there is huge difference between the emotional age of the child and the chronological age, so children need to regress and be treated (not all the time of course) as younger children. The things that good parents do with babies, singing, reading, cuddling etc etc.

Sorry I've gone on and on and think I have already posted all this before.
You do of course say SAF that we need to make up for the gaps in the child's development, I suppose I am just saying that it is a very complex issue. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

you might have heard of brain plasticity. the idea of permeanent 'pathways' that will never change if negative that you are stating as fact does not stand up to science.

I am living PROOF that that theory is, erm, rubbish. I WAS that child. The one who was raped, the one who wandered to the local shop and asked the shopkeeper to "open, open" a can of beans because my mother was passed out in an alcoholic stupor and hadn't fed me, I was that person who was then brought up for 6 years by a father who had himself experienced sexual abuse, who had bipolar disorder, who comitted suicide at 34yo. I was that person who was moved BACK in with my mother, and I was that person who was beaten black and blue for the next 4 years. My first memory is of being in the corner shop asking for the can of beans to be opened. I was that person who was on a psychiatric ward at 15yo as an inpatient due to having had a nervous breakdown. I WAS the person who thought it was normal to be treated that way, who didn't KNOW that it was normal to even own sheets or a toothbrush.

Doesn't make me a bad mother now, as I got the help that I needed.

huntycat, can I just say again, I really admire your guts, tenacity and honesty!

Mmm - nice idea swallowedafly but somewhat unrealistic I fear. I don't think people can "unlearn" what has been "taught" them by abusive parents These children lived that life with abusive/neglectful parents or witnessed great deal of domestic violence, and they did what every child does - tries to survive in the best way possible. Children have different coping mechanisms, some will shout and cry and be destructive etc whilst others will keep quiet so that they will not attract their parent's attention, as a way of keeping safe. These are not conscious decisions obviously

So are you saying that an abused child will always become an abuser as the 'skills' taught by their abusive parents will always be there?

Thats how that reads TBH and while I would agree that the effects of abuse can be far reaching, to say poor skills cant be 'unlearnt' is bullshit really.

Part of recovery from an abusive childhood is to be shown and accept that what was 'normal' for you was in fact not how it should be.

If that is what you are saying then seeing as you are a former social worker im a bit TBH.

I thought there had been a lot of research about brain development and cortisol etc which indicated that stress and maltreatment in the first year of life, or even before had an impact on that individual's ability to grow up emotionally resilient and able to cope with stress?

And some things, such as language development do have a definite window of opportunity. Cildren who have been kept isolated from human contact have grown up unable to understand sentence structure, although they can learn words.

The impact on a child's life chances of early neglect and maltreatment can be massive. That doesn't mean people cant turn their lives around but they usually require a degree of help and support they will never get in the current system.

I adopted a child just short of one year old. My understanding is that her early and pre-birth experiences (including drugs and alcohol) WILL have inescapably had some impact on her. As will her genetic inheritance, obviously. But that the nurture I provide can make a huge difference to how that manifests. For example, a child with aggressive impluses can learn how to manage that and perhaps channel it constructively (into sport, for example, or becoming a top banker) - or they can be encouraged (directly or by example) to just lamp anyone who annoys them.

By the time a child is 3, both nature and nurture are well into play and it gets harder and harder to get a good outcome. BUT there is amazing variation in individuals' resilience, and we should never, ever lose sight of those people who survive stuff that would fell most of us. Like HuntyCat - who I think is doing a great job of challenging the assumption that abuse and neglect must be perpetuated, but is perhaps not giving herself due credit for being quite exceptionally strong. She is NOT unique, but she is unusual, I reckon.

Have you read Primo Levi, HuntyCat? Particularly 'If This Is A Man'. Another interesting perspective from another context about how some individuals survive (in this case, death camps) with their humanity intact, and others don't.

i find a lot of the bs that has been spouted in the tone of being an authority shocking tbh. so much misinformation presented as fact

Why on earth didn't marva have a contraceptive implant. Did she want more pg do you think?

Would the ss have advised her to sort out some contraception ? Surely they would...

Of course she would have been advised about contraception. But you can't make people do what you think is right for them. I have clients who are given the bus fare to take them to the drugs counselling centre as they have to self refer. A lot don't go. If you are crushed and feeling helpless, you often can't see the point, you don't take careof yourself, it is a vicious cycle.

SWAF you seem to have dismissed a lot of what I was saying. I haven't heard of brain plasticity at all, and I am only being factual in the sense that I have read the book I mentioned and Sue Gerhardt does in fact give detailed examples of evidence for her theory, and I accepted it as factual. Why not read the book and decide for yourself. It is certainly on the reaqding list for the social work degree course and health & social care degree courses. However I don't expect you to accept anything I say as like Amberleaf you are talking of people "spouting misinformation as fact" and bs. I actually think you have misunderstood my post.

Huntycat I know and understand you were that child, but that you are one of the people who managed to get the help you needed to be able to be a good mother, even given the horrendous childhood that you endured. I'm sorry but that doesn't make the theory rubbish because I am talking about the majority of people who, will sadly pass on the kind of parenting they had to their own children,and if this was abusive/neglectful that is what they are most likely to pass on. In all the years I have been involved in child protection I have never dealt with a case of child abuse where the parents were not abused or neglected themselves. Also children in the care system when grown into adults are significantly over represented in youth offenders institutions, psychiatric wards, as homeless people or addicted to drink and or drugs. In the main I think this is because the damage had already been done to them before they came into the care system.

We saw 4 parents in the last 2 social work programmes who were unable to care for their own children because of their own parenting experiences.

I have said in another post that you are the living proof that not all people who have had abused childhoods will abuse their own children.

Amberleaf NO, I am not saying that all chidren who were abused will turn into abusive parents, and I simply do not understand why you think that is what I am saying. How on earth would I know for a start. Social workers don't come into contact with all the people who endured trauma in their childhood and go on to be good enough parents. Sometimes even though a child might be abused/neglected by their parents, they will have a member of the extended family (a granny or an aunt ) with whom they can seek refuge and this can be a protective factor for them.

However I don't expect you to accept anything I say as you use quite derogatory words in your post e.g. bullshit.

Spero Hi hope you are well. I agree absolutely with your post and you have a much more influential and important job than a mere social worker, especially an old retired one like me! Also agree with your last post - I think some of the MNs on here have no notion of what it is like to work with people who live chaotic lives and feel crushed and helpless (a very good description)

Devoro what an interesting and insightful post and am in complete agreement with you, especially as you have actually adopted a child no doubt from an abusive background, and are not just talking theoretcially.

It's a shame that conflict has popped up on the site, especially as there has been very little "social worker bashing" - conversely the programmes seemed to have made people realise just how difficult child protection work really is and have been prepared to say so on these posts.

Nana- on every thread that i have posted on, i to have made the point that for every parenting assessment that i have ever carried out, including pre birth on dad, i have never come across anyone that has had a non abusive childhood, even if they do not recognise what they have been through as such.

There is lots of research including Micheal Rutter's early work that backs up what you quote.

When you have suffered a neglectful childhood and one that included emotional damage, you have to "work" consistantly on maintaining good mental health, to make sure that you do not repeat some of what you have "imprinted" on you, whether on a personal leve lor in relationships, including your children.

Birdsgf Same here re parenting assessments, and I think it is really interesting that you say that they don't always recognise this......I can't count the number of times I've been really concerned about children and the parenting they are getting, only to hear one of the parents say "well my dad hit me and it never did me any harm".............

Yes I do know of Michael Rutter's early work - was actually on the reading list when I did my sw course in 1979!

I agree with your last para but would add that for some people this "work" is sadly just not possible, though not always of course. I started a scheme for fostering teenagers in the mid 80s for the LA I was working for, and it was really successful because of the amazing people who were prepared to foster some of the young people whose life experiences had left them without a great deal of hope for the future. I did see some of these kids' lives turned around, and they became part of the family and some of them stayed on post 18 and I particularily remember a couple of girls who had babies when aged about 16 and these babies became like proxy grandchildren to the foster carers - brilliant stuff.

Marva would probably not have an implant because she probably dreams of having a baby to give her unconditional love.

Nana- as you know a lot of people go into SW because of their own experiences. These are the people that i meant by it still being hard work, for. Even when you are trained, educated and self aware, it can be a battle to undo the damage. So for someone who is unaware, or doesn't have the capabilities to do it alone, i second what you were saying about professionals should be ready to help.

It isn't about waiting to accuse (label) a parent from a neglected background of abuse, themselves. It is just having the knowledge of what that background can leave them with and try to make sure that their experience of being a parent,is a positive one.

I know from my own POV, my feelings around my own childhood hit me when pregnant with my second child, i think that this contributed to depression after the birth, which i don't think was PND, it was unresolved resurfacing.

the trouble is that the schools of psychology, counselling and related social work type fields are guided by archaic theories many of which do not stand up to the realities we have discovered about the brain. now that we know so much more about the functions of the amygdala, the hippocampus etc in memory formation and responses to stimuli and the physiological effects of trauma upon these areas of the brain the whole area needs shaking up to take on board the new discoveries and move these fields from being theoretical and value based to something more akin to science and medicine.

neuroplasticity is fascinating - we have had massive breakthroughs in being able to 'observe' the brain to literally show changes - and it has massive implications upon how to approach trauma, cognitive and behavioural issues etc.

we really need a more unified discipline to emerge and training institutions to change so that we don't have all these discrete little schools which are near religious really in the sense of treating unproven theories as gospel and basing their whole approach upon them whilst refusing to engage with more recent breakthroughs and knowledge developments in brain science.

sorry if this all seems irrelevant but this is the trouble with soft theory making claims about facts and the brain without having a solid backing in science. it's just theory and it's teleological in the sense of observing the behaviour and what seems to be true of it and therefore writing a theory backwards from there. re: we observe lots of abused children go onto abuse their own children and come to a conclusion that this is how it has to be in most cases and the odd ones who are ok are rare - that doesn't stand up really does it? what were the different factors with the ones who were ok? what relearning did they do and how? the fact that a can be observed to often be followed by b does not mean a inherently, immutably causes b. in fact what we're calling b is probably f with a many other factors contributing along the way. these leaps of theory from observation and theorising upon what is observed are just that - theory. the fields need to engage more with the facts we now have and put their theories to the test, discard what has been proved fallacy by advances in science and incorporate new findings and knowledge into their approaches. that takes time obviously because the fields are very well established and reluctant to change and be challenged and have to modify but it is essential.

The ONLY difference in my case is that I was intelligent enough to ACTIVELY seek out help - AND I had a VERY supportive GP who pointed OUT that I needed this help, and advocated for me where SS wouldn't.

If I hadn't had BOTH of those things, then I know I wouldn't have had my dc with me now.

So it comes down to intelligence, and HAVING SOMEONE ON YOUR SIDE.

Social Services just DON'T provide those things. You can't seek out the help you need if you don't have the personal knowledge of it. You can't seek out help if there is NO-ONE there to help you do so. You can't seek out help if the services that would provide that help no longer exist. You can't seek out help if SW's have made a pre-determined decision about your parenting abilities based on your own childhood experiences.

The theory of 'cycle of deprivation' DOESN'T have to mean that in practice, we shouldn't help these people. Otherwise you are complicit in the damage that ripples through future generations, IMO.

YES, it takes MONEY to help these people. And not ALL can BE helped. That ^shouldn't mean that you don't try. By putting in place the help that they actually NEED in order to become good parents.

And I had the intelligence to state my case for every penny spent on me, in an articulate manner. Not everyone will have - look at Marva and Shaun, or Tiffany and Mike. If they had been given more targetted help - I believe that Tiffany at least, WOULD have been a good parent. OK, Mike may not have been - but supervised contact in a contact centre SHOULD have been allowed for him - IMO he has some form of undiagnosed Autism, and I believe that it is just discrimination to say that because he wasn't connecting with his DS in the same way as you or I would, that he should be stopped from seeing his DS ever again.

OK, Marva and Shaun, right now, are NOT in a place to accept the help offered with looking after their baby - but I just hope that there are adequate support services in place for both Shaun AND Marva post-removal. Which is NOT my experience.

But Tiffany WOULD have been able to improve, and be a much better parent, given time and input in the RIGHT, DIRECTED way.

Hunty- neither you, i or anyone elso don't know if Tiffany could ever parent a child, not everyone can. I have given all the help possible, as have family members to some people, in the end they have had to apply for Special Guardianship because the birth parent just couldn't or didn't really want to parent.

You were on another thread were a sister was worried that her neices would be taken off the nan and be given back, to her sister, i didn't notice you rant at her for not supporting her sister. You acepted that the sister couldn't parent. Your reactions are coming from your own unresolved issues with SS.

Some people cannot parent.

Swallowed- Micheal Rutters research into the Romanian children has been a big break through, because we have been able to see how the different aged children have responded to correct stimulus, yet have remained brain damaged.

Cross studies are done with children in foster care, also.