Protecting our Children, Part 2

[Lilka]

Thought I'd start a new thread because the other one was so big

Anyone else going to be watching?

duchesse you are right the baby wasnt safe thats all that matters really is the baby in all this , ye M n S have chaotic lives and maybe make choices on their wits alone , but tbh they will never change all the support in the world wont change them which is sad , but their children are what is important to break this awful cycle ,

duchesse spot on! with all the help in the world, time and money, nothing is going to fix them. The cycle can never be broken. They are damaged in so many ways.

In a way, to be sent to a secure MH unit, this the only way these people cant be in normal society and why should so much social care be pumped into them, its seems for nothing, no one is getting anywhere.

Annie was truely fantastic but surely her time would be better put into circumstances where change can happen for families where help builds hope for the future.

But you can't necessarily work out who those families are that DO have the capacity to turn themselves around. As Huntycat's experiences show - there may have been some who would have written her off (wrongly!) due to her history and behaviours.
Those working in social care have to work with the assumption that people do have the capacity to change, with support, else they would not and could not do the jobs that they do.
For every five Shaun and Marva's there will be a Huntycat, and that's what makes the effort / cost / time worthwhile.

Sorry, haven't checked to see if anyone else has posted this but there is a blog by the BBC about making the programme which looks good

www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tv/2012/01/protecting-our-children.shtml

dotty every person is different in their turn around iyswim , of course people can change their lifestyle or sort their problems but people need to accept they have problems in the first place

, and in M n S case i really dont think they could see a way of changing,
yes they knew they had shit childhoods but on the other hand they sat drinking with their baby who maybe hadnt been fed Marva went missing from her place of care and safety to go to shaun ,
they were not thinking clearly about the babies welfare , and between them from what i made out they had 7 children taken from them or maybe it was 4 i wasnt quite sure but S had 4 taken from him he wasnt allowed to see ,

How many chances how much support how much hand holding do these people need before they put their children first and foremost in their lives ,

I agree with Dotty342kids last post. Those working in social care should work with the assumption that parents do have the capacity to change for the better. It was warming to hear Arthur's voice-over saying something like, it makes it all worthwhile when people change for the better. I can't remember his exact words but it was words to that effect.

I agree that not EVERYONE will be capable of the massive changes needed in situations like this. My own mother never will be capable of changing, so I KNOW that.

However, that DOESN'T follow that NO-ONE in situations like this is capable of the massive changes needed. I was capable of it. And I can reassure you, I wasn't much better than Marva to start with (though I stopped drinking and taking drugs when I found out I was pg, I restarted when I stopped BF'ing DD when she was 6mo). But I got VERY intensive help, with my lovely GP pushing all the way - and back in 1997/1998, there was much more provision for CHILDREN'S MH than there is NOW. And, as I was 16yo, I came under the CHILD MH team. It almost undid all the work that I had done when I was transferred to the ADULT MH team. Which was non-existant with a 3 yr wait for counsellors!

The drugs I managed to totally kick when DD was 12mo, the drink not until she was 3yo. Yet nowadays, I am teetotal! It took me a while, but I can see the point that Marva was unwilling to even take a hiatus from the drink and drugs while she was pg - which I did do. Maybe that shows the difference between someone who is willing to try to make changes or not? I don't know.

But I STILL have bucketfuls of sympathy for the Marva's and Shaun's of this world - because they are the product of abuse and neglect themselves, and they, to me, still look like the children that they once were. It makes me weep for them.

I am just glad that I WAS able to change, and that my GP was very supportive, and got me all the MH help I needed, got me into a mother and baby unit, and set me up to be the parent I am today. He has since retired, but I went to his retirement party to thank him, though there will never be enough thanks for the belief he showed in me. He was the first person in my life that believed in me enough to tell me that I wasn't worthless, and that I could do it.

Everyone has the potential to change for the better. But children can't wait. THAT is the dilemma. Every month, every week counts for an infant: so the decision a sw can make is not, "Can this person change?" but "How likely is it that this person can make and sustain sufficient change quickly enough to avoid significant harm to this child?"

I wouldn't write off Marva. But she is in a very bad place and will need sustained help over a long period to be able to parent.

Just as I did. I now no longer get (or need) any help. It took me 2 years to leave the mother and baby unit, by which point my DD was 2.5yo, and another year before I no longer needed any support. So a total of 3 years, give or take, that it took me to be a good parent WITHOUT the support there. Ten years later, my dc are fine, doing the best each one is able to, and are happy and well balanced. Putting in 3 years of support with my first dc has made a huge difference.

I thought the senior sw/supervisor person was lovely. When he said that at least Marva will have had a glimpse of how things could be to take forward into her adult life, despite having lost this 4th child, you could tell that he hadn't given up on her either. I have faith that if Marva manages to get out of her relationship with Shaun alive, she stands a really good chance of managing her life well. I'm not sure that Shaun is redeemable tbh.

I find it hard to watch this programmes as they come so close to home. My mother who had me on her own at nineteen and was an unstable alcoholic who ended up marrying a violent man with issues of his own. The few years I spent in her sole care were the worst of my life. I was lucky in that my grandparents and my aunt were there to take over so I mostly lived with them and had a pretty secure childhood overall. Without that safety net of a wider family I would probably have ended up in care. As it was social services weren't involved at all. Its a shame that that safety net isn't there for most people, so that state is left to pick up the pieces . I tend to side with those who argue for taking the children ASAP to give them the chance of adoption and a better life, which is the chance I was effectively given.

I was very taken by the little speech Shaun gave, he acknowledged that he wants to be a good parent, he said he would never hurt his children the way he was hurt, but he just cannot correct all the mess in his head.

He send a message to all the people watching, to look after their kids, to treat them well (unlike the way he was treated) and to be thankful for them.

I think with lots of help, he is redeemable. Maybe not to be a father, but certainly to explore his childhood issues, move on with his life, leave alcohol. I hope someone reaches out to him.

Was I the only one a little surprised that someone with Marva's history was presumably left free to come and go with the baby? It was fortunate she just went to round to Shaun's and was therefore easy to find. What could've happened to the baby in the meantime if it had taken several days to track them down?

She wasn't under arrest or in prison. Social Services would have been on very dodgy ground if they attempted to ban her from leaving the house with her own child.

It is great to hear that someone has made such an enormous change in their life and turned it arround HC.
The idea that you had one person who believed in you has struck a cord with me. I know that there have been mentoring projects in the past, but someone that is on your side and that knows how to get things done and encourage you is what is needed in so many young people's lives, especially those comming out of the care system.
The two episodes we have seen so far have shown two very different cases but with the same outcome - the children removed from their parents.
Last week I felt cross that Mike and Tiff had been left for so long looking after Toby in a very detached way, but of course they had moved to the area and we don't know what if any intervention had been tried before. I feel that assessment of the parents attachment early on with their child is paramount in their type of case. Anyone with experience of attachment disorder could see what damage they were doing to Toby. There was a complete lack of nurture in that house. Which was obviously how they had been brought up in their early years by their parents - little to do with being in care.
This week we had Shaun who had had a very violent upbringing. The way he tought the dog to be agressive and praised it for being so showed that it was all he know. But he had not been starved of attachment, He and Marve were very attached to each other in a very distructive way.He was the only constant in her lift and she would likely return to him time after time. He kept the photos of his children on the wall and the way he looked directly at the baby and know to sing to it showed he had some degree of empathy which was lacking totally in Mike. Shaun would never be able to be a dad to any child but I feel he may have decided that 7 children being taken away and Mavre being pregnant all the time was not good and if it were suggested to him he may get the snip.
He wasn't unintelegent, he suffered the effects of prolonged alcohol and drug abuse, which can make you much slower and slurred.
Marve showed the same tendancies - she looked away with the faries when she was at the conference even though we were told she hadn't been drinking.
If Marve continues to get pregnant which she more than likely will then she will probably continue to drink and take overdoses through out her pregnancy thus probably damage each child very badly.
She may consider long term contriception if put to her, I dought she would consider stiralisation as this would be an end to her chance to being a mum.

I've been thinking about the comments wrt consent to filming and my conclusion is that in this day of YouTube, FB, and even the likes of JK maybe especially because of JK I think older ideas about the sanctity of individual privacy and the gravity of being filmed and having bits of your life broadcast have been eroded somewhat.

Therefore, I don't think we can assume that these programmes are a case of unfortunate people being exploited without enough awareness of what they are letting themselves in for.

math, you may be right. I was also aware that filming gave the parents the chance to put their side of the story - an opportunity Shaun used several times (and probably dozens of other times that did not make the final cut). Last week, too, the parents explained how they saw the situation.

The irony (I suppose) is that these personal contributions are revealing to the audience and don't necessarily show the parents in a good light. Shaun thinking being a good dad amounts to not hitting your kid and buying him a quad bike; Mike saying that Toby was a very difficult child; Tiffany saying it was difficult to keep the house clean and safe because it was small (not an explanation for uncleared up dog shit at all!).

Giving the parents the opportunity to pull out at any time is respectful and fair. I expect the production team had some wobbly moments, though, when there was a risk of months of filming going down the pan.

Hunty i dont want to sound patronising but you are an inspiration and nobody can imagine what you went through , you pulled through and came out the other end , there is people who can change ,

snorbs the baby was under a care order there wouldve been conditions which she broke of course she wouldve been allowed out , just apart of the CPO was to stay away from shaun and not drink around her baby ,

The lack of support pre-2000 for care leavers was abysmal. I was told to leave my FC's ON my 16th birthday. I found out I was pg with my DD two weeks later while sleeping on a park bench

I will tell you my experience of the support for care leavers, in doing so I am not doubting your experience in any way but my experience is so different I have to say that first so you dont think im doubting what you say!

My mother was a foster carer for nearly 20 years, mainly fostering teens. Most of them left between the age of 17-18, a couple at 16 and one a while after turning 18.

For several months prior to leaving care the teens would have some days, overnights and weekend stays at 'the flat' this was a self contained 'training' flat that had 24 hr support workers there in the background [in another self contained part], they were taught to plan, budget and cook meals, clean, wash clothes and tidy the flat.

My mum also [as she did with her non fostered children] taught them to plan, budget, keep finances in check/sort out bills, cleaning/housework was something everyone was involved in.

When my mum, support workers at the flat, SWs and the teen all agreed that they were ready they would move into their own flat, some would do that by first living in a shared accomadation, but all the teens that left care from our house went straight into their own flat.

Care leavers have priority for local authority housing, most were nominated to housing associations [which had nicer properties and better tenant support TBH] ALL care leavers are eligable for a Community Care Grant so they were able to furnish/carpet their home.

Once they had moved into their own place there were support/mentoring schemes, my mum was mentor to several care leavers over the years, some that had left at age 18, the scheme was to be up to age 21, but several stayed in touch for years after that.

This was in 1980s-90s

Amberleaf that sounds similar to what we have nowadays which is enshrined in law. Your mum's local authority must have been a progressive and functioning one. As you can imagine, poor local authorities don't spend a penny over the legal minimum to support vulnerable people. Prior to 2000 there was no real legal provision for care leavers, just different interpretations of the children act which varied massively.

Hunty cat forgive me for asking a personal qu but I was convinced that your first dd had been removed from your care? I thought you had said that elsewhere on these boards. I would love to be corrected!

I am currently involved with a lovely young lady who is a Looked After Child.
The way SS have tried to screw her over is disgusting.
She has no one to support her and they know it.
They have bullied her and frightened her and ignored her.

It is only because I have put in a formal complaint on her behalf that they have now given her something approaching support. It is still not what she needs but realistically it is the best she can hope for.

SS may follow the letter of the law but they will not always do it in the best interests of the child.
They were throwing this kid to the bloody lions.

Anyone here fancy their 16 year old DD being put in a hostel with a few hours key working a week? A 16 who is NOT streewise and has no knowledge of budgeting, cooking, cleaning or organisational skills?
Thats what they have been pushing her into doing for the last year. Telling her if she doesnt agree they will have to place her with a fc in a different part of the country who is 'very religious'. That she wouldnt be able to see her boyfriend or keep her pet.

This kid has never been in trouble with the law, is well behaved (too well behaved) and wants to go to uni.

I have no idea how she has managed to stay so resilient and motiviated when she could so easily be like poor Marva.

who is she living with now mrsD? do they want her to leave? i know it's a very long shot but have you tried private school scholarships and bursary type avenues?

cuts will affect those trying to get clean and remain with their children. This one is in Bristol where the prog is set but I imagine this lack of support for young adults is countrywide. So more kids taken away at vast expense.

She has an second audtion for somewhere soon

Its not residential but it should be a really supportive place

Fingers crossed. She deserves something wonderful to happen to her.