DD 13 has decided I'm an abuser and wants to cut me off

[euromum]

Really struggling to know what to do here. Dd and I have often rubbed each other up the wrong way - we can both be argumentative and stubborn and 'normal' disagreements over behaviour and house rules (politeness, no phones after 9pm, lying, that kind of thing) have escalated to shouting much more often than I would have liked. I bear the responsibility for this - I know it's my job as a parent to keep a lid on emotions and model good conflict management, but due to considerable mental health issues when she was younger I didn't manage it. On a few occasions - which I now HUGELY regret and did at the time too - I smacked her. I KNOW this is really, really unforgivable. I've done a lot of therapy to deal with my issues, which are all around my own childhood and I'm well aware are basically triggered by so much of my daughter's behaviour, whatever she is doing. I.e. it's not her fault in any way, it's how the interactions make me feel that's been the problem. But in recent years while we have still argued, I have not smacked her for a very long time and consider that something incredibly wrong and a very sad part of our past. I've apologised many times and tried to listen to her, empathise, demonstrate with kindness (rather than explanations) that "angry mummy" was not me but a symptom of difficulties nothing to do with her that I want to help us both get past.

The difficulty now is that, at almost 14, for the past couple of years she has of course wanted to argue the point over everything - why we should let her go out at night with no information about where and who with, why we are the worst parents in the world basically. I find it really difficult not to get sucked into it, and as we're both debaters by nature there have been arguments. But not shouting at a level that could be called "violent" or uncontrolled. It's not helped by the fact that my husband hates conflict to an extent that he shuts down as soon as someone expresses a difference of opinion, so my speaking contrasts with his silence. Dd has now decided that I am always shouting at her, and that I always did throughout her early years and childhood. And that I hit her in anger frequently. This is such a misrepresentation it makes me want to weep with frustration. We (me and her, and the whole family including her dad and younger brother) have been basically happy in a very average kind of way throughout her childhood, punctuated by these few occasions when I was unwell and unable to manage my emotions and behaviour, that understandably loom large in the memory. Of course she is upset, hurt and sad about those occasions - so am I. But she has now stopped speaking to me, refuses to look at me or stop if I accidentally get in her way. When she does speak to me it is to say what a terrible human being I am and how there is never any excuse for shouting and violence towards a child. She says there is no way to repair things, I had my chance to be a good mother and I failed. She claims to be terrified of me, despite how much better our relationship has been in recent years. It has just taken a nosedive over the last few months and she says this is why, but I don't know what triggered it.

I just don't know what to do. She has a history of lying to the extent that we don't know if she even believes what really happened over what she says happened (several occasions when we have been there and seen various incidents, she has made us doubt what we actually saw). This has usually been to take any guilt and responsibility off herself so that she is the innocent victim. We've seen a family therapist to try to help her with this feeling of victimhood as we don't know where it came from and it seems to be so much bigger than 'normal' jealousy over her younger sibling. Now I just don't know if she's right and I was abusive. Or whether that's a manipulation and twisting of a very sad and difficult dynamic between us that I am constantly trying to repair, and have been for years. I know I need to atone for my behaviour somehow, I just don't know how. At the same time, I'm still her parent and at almost 14, living under the roof of her parents who are just trying to do their best for her, surely she doesn't get to just cut me out of her life completely?

If anyone has any idea what to do, I really would appreciate some help. I'm expecting to be flamed for the shouting and smacking when she was younger. I can't say or do anything about that now, I just want to do whatever I can to heal our relationship somehow. While taking her as seriously as she needs - but I just don't know if she's exaggerating for effect or if it really is that bad. Please help :-(

Urgh, autocorrect gone nuts🤦‍♀️. I'm sure you get the drift

I have never said hitting people ,be it adults or children is OK.
Unfortunately, some people who have had crap parents and who are stressed out of their heads or are unwell act in a way they later regret.
Mea Culpa,I am one of them.
I knew I was repeating old patterns and I sought help.
It happens,particularly with people who have been raised by traumatised, frozen and downright nasty individuals.

We all,absolutely all make mistakes

To the OP, I also wanted to add, this isn't as uncommon as you think it is. We end up feeling guilty, or that we will be judged as guilty if we speak out, so we don't.

I was lucky in that I did speak out to a friend after she rang me after a really bad day with DD, this lead to learning that she'd suffered the same & several other friends had too, all girls, all with some trauma in their lives & many, like my DD are likely undiagnosed ASD. Most saying they grew out of it by 26🥴

Getting support via your GP can help you feel less crazy & beaten down by it all, as can speaking out & realising that you are not alone

I'm coping much better now & I can mentally step back & see each situation as unit arises for what it is & I can spot the real cause of her anxiety

MarianneUnfaithful 's 09:35 pist has it really.

This is a 13 year old child we're talking about. She very much still needs to be parented. She does need boundaries (sensible ones, discussed calmly but ultimately at 13 not just whatever she wants especially concerning being out late without her parents knowing where she is or with whom!).

Pragmatism is essential at the moment - it is not practical to declare that she has a right not to have a relationship with her mother. She lives with her mother and her father is apparently as much use as a bicycle for a fish. She has the right not to love or like her mother, but there has to be a functional relationship to get her through the next 5 years - and especially the next 3.

Dwelling solely on a victim-abuser narrative is not actually going to help the child in question. Yes, her mother shouted and smacked her. Yes, her mother was right to acknowledge, apologise and seek outside help (she says this is being organised). However that needs to remain one aspect of life in the house - meanwhile the child in question still needs firm but fair parenting for her own sake, before she falls victim outside the house to grooming gangs or an adult or near adult "boyfriend", or "just" gets into drinking and smoking weed in the park at 13...

I think that some of your questions can't be answered until she's older and had a chance to think things through without hormones being a factor.

I think that you're being unreasonable to assume that she is exaggerating or lying about the past. Chances are that if you were angry enough to smack them you weren't thinking clearly and that's without other factors like size difference coming into effect. You need to let go of this victim blaming and perhaps when she's older (say 18) she will be able to admit how she really felt and if there was any wrongdoing by her. She is not going to back down and say that she forgives you at this age. If it happens it will be in the future.

You have apologized so need to stop offering a stick for her to beat you with. She may want to discuss this in the future but for now I'd leave it.

This age is tough. They think that they are adults but they need appropriate boundaries and there needs to be give and take on both sides (unless she has a track record of being reckless etc ) your h needs to form his opinions. Your dd will assume that his silence means that he agrees with her.

My situation as a child was somewhat similar to your dd, whilst living at home my mother was abusive, there’s no other way of putting it. She was, and now (I’m in my 20s) can see she was and should of been the adult / the parent. My dad was an enabler of her narcissistic and abusive behaviours.

When I moved out and left the country at 18 I was very ready to go NC. I didn’t, and we repaired our relationship with me living elsewhere and have got on far better in my 20s than ever before.

Your victimhood comment is out of order, and saying that your daughter is misrepresenting the facts sounds like gaslighting tbh.

My abusive mother was a chronic gaslighter.

We’re bringing up a generation of children who are learning that no conflict is ever acceptable and who are never going to cope in the real world when they have to deal with authority e.g. in the workplace

No we are bringing up a generation who recognise abuse when they see it snd to call it out. To not take getting hit, shouted at, or whatever. We are teaching our children to have boundaries, that assault is never ok. And it doesn’t matter if it’s your friend, your partner, your boss, your parent, your sibling or a stranger in the street. They cannot hit you. They cannot assault you. Getting the “ odd smack” is not and never will be ok.

And a hugely over inflated sense of own importance and entitlement is not OK either.

I can’t see that smacking and shouting in itself is abuse. I’ve got fantastic parents and a great relationship with them but I’ve been smacked and shouted at. You would have to do some serious mental gymnastics to see them as abusive though. Whether it’s “ok” or “not ok” that they did that is just entirely meaningless. Equally you can have abusive parents who did none of those things.

Everything is a narrative, everyone writes narratives, they may use it to manipulate others, to feel better themselves, to explain something they don’t understand, to
mirror another narrative, for whatever purpose.

I think they way forward is to stop seeking the “truth” about the past, since there isn’t one that will be found and unanimously agreed on, but to be practical about what would make everyone feel better and work better together from now, including what would make you feel better. Do what seems best for your daughter now, whatever that is. Therapy, extra curricular activities etc. And look out for yourself because guilt and shame probably won’t help either.

Wow, a lot of replies - thank you all so much, this is a lot of things I needed to hear, from all perspectives. I am really sorry that I am not the only one struggling with how they have parented in the past and how to do what's best for struggling teens now. Honestly there are so many things I want to respond to, I will try to mention them but basically I really, really appreciate everyone who has responded here and what you have all said. I don't think I've figured out quotes properly but here goes...

The issue is that you are still angry and shout at her. The only thing that has changed is that you no longer hit her, probably because she could hit you back

Just because you don’t now hit her doesn’t mean all is forgiven and you can all move on. Those outbursts leave a lasting impression and the scars never leave. Especially if you are still shouting.

@Bythemillpond - I do still feel angry with her sometimes, and I have wondered if I stopped smacking her simply because she got bigger, but whatever the reason, that hasn't happened for over 5 years. I also don't think I shout at her, although part of the problem we have is that she says I am shouting every time I show emotion or say something she doesn't like. I honestly don't know what to think at those moments - do I just not realise that I am shouting, is she extra sensitive to even a slightly raised voice, or is she reacting to the fact that she doesn't like what I'm saying. It's just really hard to find the line to walk. I cannot just not speak for fear she will accuse me of shouting when I am not even feeling like I might (it's not just that I'm doing my best not to - it's often that I'm surprised she even thinks I might be, because for me the 'shouty' emotions are just not happening at those moments, they hardly come up at all and when they do I am now able to not shout, or remove myself). So I suppose this is what has given me hope that it might be possible to move on. Maybe the fact that it has eased is what allows her now to process it aloud?

I've been through/going through similar, but without ever smacking mine, so I really feel for you as I know how awful it is & how much we end up feeling guilty even when innocent. Mine only does it with me out of view of her dad, then cries to him that I'm abusive if I even say anything she doesn't like, let alone raise my voice. D D herself is vicious though & has physically attacked me on occasions too

I agree it's manipulative, but it isn't that straight forward, it's because they are hurting & lashing out at the parent they feel the most secure with. She needs counselling, but will likely throw that at you too.

@SingingInTheShithouse, thank you for all your posts. It's really helpful to hear about your experience. I completely agree with what you say here, I am absolutely not innocent but I don't think I am guilty of everything she says I am. And that's not good for either of us, it's why I want to be able to help sort things out.

There are some very defensive parents on here - possibly uncomfortable about how they treat people/teens/kids. Some of the language about a teenage girl is 🤮 and we wonder how we end up with young women with low self esteem

@Bluntness100 - totally agree. I don't like to face it but you are 100% right and it is a tragedy what this does to my daughter and all the other young women we talk about like that. I am doing my best now, for what it's worth.

@JanFebAnyMonth thank you for the tip on Therapeutic Parenting, it looks really helpful. I will be having a really thorough look at that.

We’re bringing up a generation of children who are learning that no conflict is ever acceptable and who are never going to cope in the real world when they have to deal with authority e.g. in the workplace.

@AlternativePerspective I feel like I unfairly accuse her of being a snowflake when I think this (she has also thrown that at me too) but I absolutely worry the same thing. Not experiencing abuse is one thing, but not ever experiencing conflict is something else entirely, and it's not helpful to confuse the two, deliberately or otherwise (definitely otherwise in my dd case, just to be clear!)

Your dd will assume that his silence means that he agrees with her.

I absolutely agree with this. Your DH needs to step up & fast.

We had the same scenario here. Ironically I let it go on SS he's a very big booming man, & we both felt him telling her off would be too scary for her 🤦‍♀️

I got to the point of being ready to walk. It was only then that DH owned up to a suicide attempt at DDs age & that's why he's so scared to be anything other than mr neutral & reasonable & doesn't want her to see him taking sides. That definitely wasn't helping the situation though & she was playing us off against each other, which he just didn't want to see. Thankfully she shot herself in the foot with one text to him that confirmed my version over hers & he's been better since then.

She's since kicked off at him a few times too & she had him in tears. Something I've never seen in him in over 35 years of knowing him, awful to see, but at least now he gets it & backs me. I took to texting him a run down of a confrontation with DD, partly for my own sanity & to document it, partly so he could stop sticking his bloody head in the sand & step up. It worked, though not before I'd had a total breakdown on my own away from DD & him in the kitchen & was found sat sobbing in a heap of broken crockery.

Having him onside & stepping up, alongside support for me is helping us all cope better. I've been open with DD about my counselling & tried to encourage her to look into it too & she's finally listening 🤞

@SingingInTheShithouse

To the OP, I also wanted to add, this isn't as uncommon as you think it is. We end up feeling guilty, or that we will be judged as guilty if we speak out, so we don't.

I was lucky in that I did speak out to a friend after she rang me after a really bad day with DD, this lead to learning that she'd suffered the same & several other friends had too, all girls, all with some trauma in their lives & many, like my DD are likely undiagnosed ASD. Most saying they grew out of it by 26🥴

Getting support via your GP can help you feel less crazy & beaten down by it all, as can speaking out & realising that you are not alone

I'm coping much better now & I can mentally step back & see each situation as unit arises for what it is & I can spot the real cause of her anxiety

Thank you. I really appreciate hearing about your experience, and it's absolutely already helpful to hear from others. It's the mentally stepping back and being able to deal with the real issues that I want to get to, I'm so glad to hear it's possible, and that you're coping better now. All power to you are your dd too

@Agsjsgkahs

My situation as a child was somewhat similar to your dd, whilst living at home my mother was abusive, there’s no other way of putting it. She was, and now (I’m in my 20s) can see she was and should of been the adult / the parent. My dad was an enabler of her narcissistic and abusive behaviours.

When I moved out and left the country at 18 I was very ready to go NC. I didn’t, and we repaired our relationship with me living elsewhere and have got on far better in my 20s than ever before.

Your victimhood comment is out of order, and saying that your daughter is misrepresenting the facts sounds like gaslighting tbh.

My abusive mother was a chronic gaslighter.

Thank you for your directness. I'm sorry you went through this, and am glad to hear you were able to repair your relationship with your parents in the end. Distance can be a great healer - my mother and I were pretty evil to each other, and while it never occurred to me to go NC (mainly because it never occurred to me as a possibility, I didn't know people did that) it was only I moved and stayed away in my early 20s that we were really able to get to know and like each other properly.

And to all those mentioning my dh's role (or deliberate lack of) in all this, yes this is absolutely a key part of the problem and I know he needs to step up. I have felt sometimes as if his lack of support to me is one of the main reasons why this all spun out of control in the first place, and sometimes I wonder if leaving him would actually help. Not that chucking some extra upheaval into the mix sounds like a good idea, and I don't even want to split up! I think like @SingingInTheShithouse experienced, he has issues of his own at play and we just need to work our way through it as best we can for everyone.

I am going to stop posting now - but still reading and appreciating replies, and I will be acting on the advice (and home truths) you have all been so kind to dish out. We have the therapist appointment for my daughter, and I will book us some family therapy once she has had a few sessions of her own (I don't want to overwhelm her with everything at once, doesn't seem like a good idea). In the meantime I focus on myself, dealing with my own issues before they come anywhere near being dd's issues, so I can stand firm, calm and loving in how I deal with her.

Thank you

Parenting teens is really tough, and some are harder than others. I am a very calm easy going person generally, but my god my eldest dd pushed every button imaginable and nearly drove me out of my mind. We got through it, and i am a perfectly calm parent to my other 4 dc. We get on great now that she no longer lives at home, she is a difficult person, she says so herself. So i have sympathy op, yes remaining in control is always the responsibility of the adult, but sometimes we are parenting difficult young people and it's bloody hard. All i can advise is that you and your dh make it clear that the 'rules' you put in place to keep your dd safe now have nothing to do with what happened in the past, whether she respects you or not is irrelevant, your house your rules. Only time will tell if your relationship will improve.

@euromum

And to all those mentioning my dh's role (or deliberate lack of) in all this, yes this is absolutely a key part of the problem and I know he needs to step up. I have felt sometimes as if his lack of support to me is one of the main reasons why this all spun out of control in the first place, and sometimes I wonder if leaving him would actually help. Not that chucking some extra upheaval into the mix sounds like a good idea, and I don't even want to split up! I think like *@SingingInTheShithouse* experienced, he has issues of his own at play and we just need to work our way through it as best we can for everyone.

I am going to stop posting now - but still reading and appreciating replies, and I will be acting on the advice (and home truths) you have all been so kind to dish out. We have the therapist appointment for my daughter, and I will book us some family therapy once she has had a few sessions of her own (I don't want to overwhelm her with everything at once, doesn't seem like a good idea). In the meantime I focus on myself, dealing with my own issues before they come anywhere near being dd's issues, so I can stand firm, calm and loving in how I deal with her.

Thank you

You sound very thoughtful op and so willing to move forward. Wishing you well x

Splitting with your h wouldn't solve things - your dd would demand that she lived with him and she'd be using his silence and conflict avoidance to do what she wants. When she's with you, she'd be goading you with "But Dad..."

It comes down to the fact that her supposed "partner" has lied to, manipulated and deceived the OP.

That's not what a partner or best friend does.

Why isn't he hwr husband - they've been together 12 YEARS!

He's commitment phobic for now, but is highly likely to tell her in ten years time that they've grown apart and he's leaving her to marry his pregnant 30 year old girlfriend.

True live my arse Lyndsey and co.

I don’t really ever post but my god the double standards is ridiculous. I’m sorry but I really can’t imagine for one second if the roles were reversed and the husband had shouted and hit the child and the wife just didn’t like confrontation that everyone would be saying it’s the manipulative teenager and he’s a great dad. No everyone would be falling over themselves to tell them to leave the husband and he’s abusive.

I know I’ll get flack because I’m not a parent but I’ve been that child it’s awful and yes sometimes I did tell them how I felt but because I had nice house and clothes and things I wanted I was called ungrateful. I do think therapy is the right way to go and that things do work out for yourself and your family though op

I’m sure a man who said he shouted and hit his children would nt receive such sympathic responses. Please get professional help OP.

Isn't the point here that the OP has acknowledged and owned what she's done, apologised extensively and is actively working on being different, and has begun to seek therapy for her daughter. That combined with the fact the child's other parent appears to be fairly useless means that a pragmatic approach is essential. Castigating the OP won't help her 13 year old - the child still needs parenting, especially as she is troubled.

The 13 year old in question can't be left to do as she pleases because of some sanctimonious message about the OP having "lost her right to a relationship" with her - because the child is a 13 year old who wants to be out late at night without telling anyone where she's going or who with. She'll end up groomed by a paedophile or having her stomach pumped in A&E or hit by a car at 1am while drink and high... 13 is incredibly young and the child is vulnerable.

No matter how bad a parent the OP has been, someone has to parent her daughter, and it doesn't sound like her dad is up to it with his inability ever to say no.

That's the reality of the situation - maybe the OP's daughter will go no contact once she's an adult, tbh that's not the first priority - the first priority is damage limitation for the child, not the relationship, and getting the child to adulthood alive and without falling victim to more abuse outside the home.

All the stuff about the OP having lost her right to a relationship with her daughter only works for a child with other options, or an adult child.