Ungrateful teens, but with added complication

[avenueq]

Dd's are 17 and 15. I can honestly say that I do everything I can for them, while having tried not to spoil them. So they want for nothing materially, but they haven't got the latest or most expensive stuff. They don't have to do a lot around the house, but are expected to help here and there. If they want to go out, I will always try to facilitate this, but they don't have too much on. We have been on many holidays but nothing too fancy. Every school trip they wanted to go on they've been allowed to go on.
They have a younger brother who is 12 and is both physically disabled and on the spectrum. This means there are things we cannot do as a family, and his moods can affect the family dynamic. Again I have tried to mitigate this by whenever I could doing things with the dd's alone, or dh doing the same. I do ask them to help out with ds, but not on a regular basis at all and only eg "babysitting" him when they'd be home anyway.
Recently with the dd's growing up they have not spent as much time with ds as before and while I accept that to some extent as normal I have tried to say to the dd's that they should maybe make more of an effort with ds than they would with a "normal" sibling because his world is small, he doesn't have any friends and he loves them very much. We have now fallen out because they have again made it clear how much they resent me making them feel guilty when I say they should sometimes spend time ds, and how little effort I make to understand how hard it is for them to have a sibling like ds. For the first point - it annoys me because that is one of the only demands I ever make on them, for the second point it upsets me because I just don't get what hardship they are suffering. There has not been a single instant ever when ds has stopped them from doing anything they wanted. But still they say they have it uniquely tough. When I point out what other families have to endure they say it's unfair to make that comparison.
Tonight I lost my rag and told them to "check their privilege" and to finally appreciate how lucky they are, but then just stormed out. I am not getting the vibe that they are taking this on board in any way.
Where do I go from here - have I spoilt them after all or do I need to be more understanding?

They do keep their rooms more or less tidy

Isn't there a terrible imbalance there where you get to a point where all you do as a parent is just self-evident but expecting anything of them is a waste of time and asking too much? Plus tip-toeing around to avoid them resenting you?
Ultimately I guess I was just hoping they would be loving and caring enough by this stage to help without me having to force it.

Maybe look at it a different way. You have two dd's who do some household chores, are generally nice to ds, behave and achieve well in school (I assume as you haven't mentioned otherwise) and don't have any other issues.

You are the lucky one then!

My dh had a db with a disability growing up and he talks about how as a teen he got fed up of it and gave him no time. Roll on to when l met him in late 20s he adored him and spent lots of time with him and made sure he was part of our lives. Let them off for the moment and let it come naturally..

Hi OP. I understand, you must feel so much for him. I think it would help to reset the family dynamic a little - they do need to be pulling their weight with a few more regular chores (maybe apart from when they have a lot of exam pressure) - doing chores is not to help you out, it is to skill them up and make them finished adults. And then, while living at home I think its ok to expect them to join for some family time - centre it around something they like too, or each sibling takes turns to choose eg movie night, board game night, takeaway, country walk. And when you get a chance, maybe ask them individually what it has been like for them - try to genuinely listen, even if you do have strong feelings about it or see it differently. I think with teens if you can see where they are coming from they often then can see the big picture too. And i agree with pp, they will see properly what you did for them all when they are grown up.

I do agree with you OP and I’ve said this before on Mumsnet but I often think if our DH/DP or a friend treated us in the same way that teenagers treat us we wouldn’t put up with them in our lives.

I have wept with despair & frustration at the way my DS sometimes behaves towards me & DH (& he is in no way a particularly ‘challenging’ teenager) but it just seems that as parents of teenagers we just have to accept these horrible years in the knowledge that it will most likely get better.

My siblings were NT, so I don't understand fully, but they were quite a bit younger. I absolutely loathed being asked to spend time with them when I was an older teen. It was the feeling of being forced, and as awful as it sounds, I did think how I hadn't asked for them, they weren't my responsibility. I'd do other chores, but not that. They did add a layer of restriction to our family activities. Shorter attention span, choice of holiday or family days out were subtly geared to younger ones. I love them dearly now, but as teen it was hard.
I'd probably encourage other chores to free you up instead tbh.

I have a 21, 16, 15, 13 year old.

All the older ones moan about the youngest. She's full on like the eldest but they don't see that - just that she is more demanding of our time. In reality she doesn't get more it's just their perception as she's more "in your face".

I have no advice but I think it is very much down to typical sibling dynamics.

is it ok to demand of your teen children to help with chores - if so, then why not this chore when this is the one that helps the family the most?

Because it is the hardest chore emotionally for them. Engaging with someone you don't especially get on with is very hard work and exhausting. The games he like are probably not what they would choose to play themselves. Depending on his disability, perhaps it takes a lot of effort not to say or do the wrong thing and cause an upset. And they are at age when young people start to need freedom from the family. Their feelings are as profound and as genuine as yours.

I expect them to do it for me out of gratitude for all they have and out of a sense of care and kindness

That is an unrealistic expectation. You can insist they do it. You can insist that it is part of keeping the family running and they have to contribute. But it would be better for all of you if you didn't try to control their feelings about it.

The autism charity where I live runs a siblings club where brothers and sisters can have relaxed fun, get together and support each other. With the best will in the world, and with parents making as much effort as they can to make sure their kids don't lose out, those children do carry extra burdens and sometimes their parents find it hard to accept that.

OP - I grew up in a family where I had to be "grateful" for every day things like technology branded clothes, ... I also had to play with my disabled brother who is 4 years younger than me... It stopped when I was 15 and threw a massive tantrum!

Please don't force your DD's. Get them to help with household chores. Make it linked to pocket money or lifts to see friends.
Don't make your DS into a spoilt king that can boss your girls around. You are setting up some terrible dynamics for your children. (Because my brother is still thinking that I am there for his entertainment....)

When they were younger and dismissed his moods as not a problem he was younger too.

My teen DD happily babysits her 7 year old brother. I would never ask her to babysit a 12 year old boy (nor her own 11 year old brother - I'm very clear that he is entirely responsible for himself if they are home without me and DD is not in charge of nor responsible for him) because he'd quite likely be as big as her and have begun puberty, making it a major problem if he got frustrated or angry in a way a 7 year old wouldn't be due to his small size.

Asking the dds to babysit when you aren't home does mean you are potentially asking them to be responsible for him in a bad mood, because you are not there to take over if his mood changes.

Your teens should do normal chores but forcing them to take responsibility for their brothers emotional or physical well-being is unreasonable. If you push them they will resent him. If you don't they will have a better adult relationship with him.

I appreciate what you're saying, but just to add to the picture- ds never of his own accord demands their attention. He is not allowed in their rooms. When they have had friends round I have many many times arranged for ds to not be there so that they could socialise undisturbed.

He is the size of a six year old

If he is allowed unlimited screen access, which he is when I'm not there, then his mood won't be a problem

Ragwort your DP or DH is your adult partner! Of course an adult shouldn't behave like a teenager! A teenager is a teenager obviously, that's why we cut them slack for not acting like 40 year olds and for not parenting their siblings!

avenueq his being the size of a 6 year old is a big drip feed but does make babysitting less of a big ask I agree. I assume that means he has not started puberty and isn't stronger than a 6 year old either (as a 12 year old with achondroplasia might be the height but not the build of a 6 year old for example)?

In that case, if he's the size and strength of a 6 year old and only needs to be given foid when the teens get themselves sone and will stay on his iPad the rest of the time occasionally babysitting is much more reasonable.

Asking them to entertain him with baking and board games out of gratitude isn't though. That's not their job nor something that you should force siblings to do.

OP you are dangerously close to crossing into emotional blackmail if you haven't already and you really need to take a step back. It sounds like you would like more support with DS and I would urge you to contact your local authority to discuss this and to ask for a carers assessment as you are entitled to support to. However this doesn't mean that your DDs need to be that support. I appreciate you may ideally like them to want to spend time with their brother but their interests will be widely different and stating things you have done from them to entrench this sense of duty, obligation and guilt is not going to help. It will simply push them further away. They should be responsible for something in the home like their bedroom. Otherwise you are describing fairly standard parental obligations (helping your kids go out, holidays and school trips) and expecting your kids to be excessively grateful. They didn't ask for this any more than you did. If you sit back and don't force it I do wonder if a relationship but grow on its own.

No way would I force my kids to spend time with anyone they didn't want to. Sibling or not. Issue is doing that will possibly create resentment and could cause long term issues with their relationships.

I understand he has a disability and you need a break but he's your child not there's and I know that comes across harshly but you can't expect older children to want to spend time with younger ones if they really don't want to.

This doesn't mean you can't ask and hopefully they say yes. But if they don't want to at that particular moment, I wouldn't force or berate them for it. I occasionally ask my eldest when nipping to the shop for five mins if she will watch the younger two. If she says yes then great but when she can't be bothered I just take them no issues.

Chores around the house are entirely different..it's something that needs done by everyone as everyone lives there so it's everyone's responsibility and it's something they will need to learn and do through their whole life. Spending time with their brother independently may not be, sadly, depending on what they choose. Lots of siblings have very little relationship.

Apologies for drip feed, trying to keep it from being too identifiable.
I appreciate I probably sound slightly unhinged on here but it's really not the case that I constantly demand gratitude or for them to spend time with their brother. It just came to a head yesterday, I'm not really sure why, but before that weeks if not months had gone by without it being an issue.

It must be really hard avenueq - it sounds as though you're a single parent or not very well supported by a partner too. It must be relentless havingvsole responsibility for a child with possibly complex needs and feel enhanced mother guilt about his quality of life if he doesn't have many friends or a wide social circle. It really isn't your teen DDS job to fill that gap though.

As a few others suggested perhaps you could have a look around for extra support through charities and organisations in your area. Your DDs might benefit from a sibling group, and your son from socialising at exclusive use soft play sessions for example, and you could find some emotional support from parents in similar situations.

Perhaps you already do all that. Sorry if I'm parroting old ideas. It's just that you need support, but not from your teenagers.

It sounds like you would like more support with DS and I would urge you to contact your local authority to discuss this and to ask for a carers assessment as you are entitled to support to. However this doesn't mean that your DDs need to be that support

I entirely agree.

At the end of the day it was OP’s choice to have 3 children. If one has disabilities it’s her and her DH’s responsibility to deal with not her other children. It was her choice not theirs.

It sounds like OP feels unsupported with him and is expecting her other children to meet those needs rather than organising some kind of extra help within the home.

I think forcing your dd's to spend time with their younger brother will backfire - they don't want to - how do you expect they will come across? Their reluctance is likely to present itself in negative ways while they are spending time with him, it will not end well.
And get them to step up and help around the house - everyone needs to contribute - even your ds! And expecting your kids to be grateful is a highway to nowhere - their gratitude will come with age, when they can step back and appreciate what you have done for them but as we always like to joke with our dcs - they didn't ask to be born! If you want them to spend more time with your ds, I suggest a family movie night with take away pizza or a games night - something the whole family genuinely enjoys rather than just trying to please your ds.

Dh does tons with ds.
I am not expecting the dd's to take on ds's care in any way shape or form. Just very easy "babysitting", as described, once in a blue moon. Plus I would love them to spend some time with him at weekends or in holidays, no more than half an hour at a time.
If you tell me that is too much fine I'll have to rethink, but please don't present it as me trying to offload my responsibilities onto my dd's.

i think you should leave them to it, they will make their own minds up op and may surprise you if you take a step back

they are still your kids, they still need your attention in their own circumstances.