Ungrateful teens, but with added complication

[avenueq]

Dd's are 17 and 15. I can honestly say that I do everything I can for them, while having tried not to spoil them. So they want for nothing materially, but they haven't got the latest or most expensive stuff. They don't have to do a lot around the house, but are expected to help here and there. If they want to go out, I will always try to facilitate this, but they don't have too much on. We have been on many holidays but nothing too fancy. Every school trip they wanted to go on they've been allowed to go on.
They have a younger brother who is 12 and is both physically disabled and on the spectrum. This means there are things we cannot do as a family, and his moods can affect the family dynamic. Again I have tried to mitigate this by whenever I could doing things with the dd's alone, or dh doing the same. I do ask them to help out with ds, but not on a regular basis at all and only eg "babysitting" him when they'd be home anyway.
Recently with the dd's growing up they have not spent as much time with ds as before and while I accept that to some extent as normal I have tried to say to the dd's that they should maybe make more of an effort with ds than they would with a "normal" sibling because his world is small, he doesn't have any friends and he loves them very much. We have now fallen out because they have again made it clear how much they resent me making them feel guilty when I say they should sometimes spend time ds, and how little effort I make to understand how hard it is for them to have a sibling like ds. For the first point - it annoys me because that is one of the only demands I ever make on them, for the second point it upsets me because I just don't get what hardship they are suffering. There has not been a single instant ever when ds has stopped them from doing anything they wanted. But still they say they have it uniquely tough. When I point out what other families have to endure they say it's unfair to make that comparison.
Tonight I lost my rag and told them to "check their privilege" and to finally appreciate how lucky they are, but then just stormed out. I am not getting the vibe that they are taking this on board in any way.
Where do I go from here - have I spoilt them after all or do I need to be more understanding?

The empathy thing is key, I think. It's often lacking or disordered in ASD, i.e. too much as well as too little. ASD is highly hereditary and siblings could be NT, but still have some traits. Women can seem to be more empathic than men but your DDs may be slightly lacking in that respect due to teen brain development, slight ASD traits or both. It's evident in my family, ExH has none!

That's an interesting point Ellen - dh struggles with empathy as well

when they say they are suffering hardship, perhaps they are feeling that spending time with DS would take away from them spnding time doing what THEY want to do. This is normal for teenagers but still a bit selfish IMO. I think all teenagers can be abit egocentric at times, they are still learning to think of others. It wouldn't hurt for them to spend more time with DS- they can still do their own things too, at other times.

Perhaps they could include DS in activities they do with their friends? or am I being unrealistic?

It's a hard thing to teach as well, avenueq.

((Hug)))

It’s not easy.

Teenagers are inherently selfish, it’s the ‘return to toddler’ stage. It’s frustrating because they’ve gone through the lovely growing up and becoming independent stage, where you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel...only to plunge back into ‘its all about MEEEEEEE’ toddler mindset. It’s hormonal and they really can’t help it. Like any ‘stage’ some suffer worse and it varies in length.

It hurts that they don’t want to spend time with their DB.
It hurts that they don’t appear to want to help you out.
It hurts that they don’t appreciate all they have.
It hurts that they don’t appreciate their NT lives.

However, TRY, to see them as Large Toddlers and treat them much as you would have when they were toddlers.

They will grow out of it and if you don’t force it now, they will support DS.

The difference between toddlers and teens is that teens CAN do chores, don’t expect them to do things willingly or without moaning, but expect then to do what they’ve been asked/told to.

I would tell them when I needed them to watch DS. The same as I’d tell them to watch any younger sibling, keep an eye on nan, walk the dog etc and it wouldn’t be negotiable.

I wouldn’t ask them to play/bake/spend time with DS when I didn’t really need them too though because I wouldn’t want them to see that as a ‘chore’ and resent him.

...I’d certainly be giving them more to do around the house and it wouldn’t be beyond me to offer them the choice of cleaning the bathroom properly or playing with DS while I did it...and ANY hint of bad grace about it and they’d be on bathroom duty for the foreseeable.

I can understand them feeling that DS stops them doing stuff because he does. Yes they got to go to ‘Go Ape’ with their Dad, but they didn’t get to go ‘as a family’. DS’s ability to cope, or not, with things does impact on them. It’s hard enough when you’re an adult and it’s your child. It’s much harder when you’re a teenager and it’s your sibling.

You’ll all get through this stage and hopefully they’ll be a real godsend in a few years, but until then, try to remember the stage they’re going through isn’t easy for them either. No matter how cushy you’ve made it.

Much easier to see from the outside 🌷

I'm a bit older than your DDs (in my 20s) and I have a younger autistic brother. It's quite a unique situation to be in and as PPs have pointed out the teenage years are not ripe for empathy, but it does sound like there is more they could be doing.

I think you need to separate the two issues into 1) your DDs being ungrateful/selfish and 2) the amount of time they spend with their brother. Up to you how much housework you want them to do, but it sounds like they could be doing more. Do you think you may have overcompensated by giving them fewer chores? It might give them more of a sense of how much you do around the house for a start.

Babysitting or watching their brother should be separate from spending time with him, which you have to acknowledge that they may not always want to do. What do they normally do at home? Could they watch films/TV together? Doing 'normal' things but with their brother is the most realistic path to them 'getting to know' each other. I take my brother to the cinema, bowling or to a coffee shop when he got older, for example.

Having said that, I had plenty of other stuff going on outside of home at that age, partly due to the fact that I missed out on other things during my childhood, like having friends round or going to busy public places (DB is much better with these now, thankfully). There was also pressure on me in other ways as the NT child (eg. to succeed academically). None of the above affected how I felt about my DB, but it did affect me in some way.

As a side note, IMO babysitting should be separate from that, arranged in advance as you would with a normal babysitter. My parents did this with me once I was old enough to look after my brother and I really appreciated it, as did they. Could you look into more respite care for your DS? You deserve a break, too, as does he.

Lots of food for thought for me on this thread. Hugs to you OP.

I do think forcing it is really silly - your DS is not a dishwasher.

If it helps, and I doubt it will, given your quite astounding lack of empathy with your DDs, throughout his young life, this form of bribery has worked with my DS:

An activity he doesn't want to do but I really want him to do/he needs to do (swimming, piano, being nice to old people, etc)?

I start with blatant bribery - chocolate buttons, toys, cash, then as the lovely glow of the sugar/money kicks in, start to talk about how good the achievement feels. Then, lo and behold, a few months/weeks later, he's doing the thing because he knows it's a good idea, and he gets personal satisfaction from it. My big lanky boy puts in some fabulous shifts these days based almost entirely on the warm glow of parental approval (with the occasional tenner thrown in.)

I'm not a very skilled parent, to be completely frank, but is this not quite basic stuff ?

@DoAsYouWouldBeMumBy did you mean to be so condescending and patronising? I'm clearly not as skilled a parent as you, but I do try.

This is a tough one to navigate. I think I would hold my bottom line, that you'd like them to spend time with their brother, facilitating that with assistance for them in other ways. Keep asking. Every time. Little pockets of time, 'would you sit with DS and play his PlayStation for 15 minutes?'. I wonder if their reaction to your request was the implied lifestyle change to spending more time with him. I think teens are likely quite dramatic about how hard they have it. All normal, but perhaps they need steered through these few years.

You could maybe start off by doing some new activities as a family, while not your ultimate goal, it might revitalise the relationship between your daughters and DS and between you and your daughters? Might help smooth the way going forward.

They should be helping out with chores and their brother - it will help them in their future lives. It will give them a sense of responsibility.
I think that you shouldn’t do everything for them, it will encourage them to become incompetent.

I think they sound like ‘typical’ teenagers & are totally self absorbed and selfish. And I say this as a mother of a teenage DS. I get fed up with people coming up to me & saying what a lovely, charming son I have when he can be utterly selfish and rude at home. I know that he knows how to behave and to be kind to other people (only the other day he went out of his way to help two very elderly ladies, that he didn’t know, but were struggling to find a taxi & get home) but at home if you ask him to put a plate in the dishwasher it is considered an outrageous request.

I think your DDs should be showing some kindness to their own brother, but if anyone has any ideas how to encourage teenagers to behave better in their own home I’d love to know.

any ideas how to encourage teenagers to behave better in their own home I’d love to know

Me to.

To be honest my kidult NT DD, 23 lovely, accomplished young lady but oh so dreadfully judgemental and horrible to NT DB, 16. Nearly breaks my heart sometimes.

I don't think you have given your DDs "a lot of slack" as you put it.
"Facilitating" so that they can go out? They are teens and need to socialise.
Buying clothes... ???
Letting them go on school trips? Going on family holidays???
(& I have just refused my teen a 3rd school trip in as many years in favour of a family weekend away...)

Providing for your children should not be attached to some sort of action out of gratitude towards you or their brother.
If you want children to chip in with the daily running of the family home, give them clear tasks. They will have a set beginning and end & will teach them to be independent.
Don't force them to spend time with other siblings all you do is built up a lot of resentment.

Sorry, it's tough but I think YABU. Take the disability out of it, they wouldn't want to be spending time with a 12 year old boy anyway.

You say he would have heaps going on if he was NT, but that's not necessarily the case, lots of 12 year olds don't have many friends.

Teenagers are selfish, also it's not easy as a teen to sit around being nice to someone who you not only have not much in common with, but who's also being rude to you/in a bad mood.

Its not very nice but you just aren't going to convince them they are so privileged. Having a disabled sibling isn't the worst but it isn't a privilege.

By the same token I could say to you, stop complaining, don't you know there are mums who have three disabled kids, or three kids on drugs, or three kids who are murderers. If the only thing you have to complain about is your dds sometimes don't spend much time with younger bro, you are doing ok.

By facilitating I mean things like providing lifts so they can go in the first place. Not just buying clothes but also technology etc. So I'm not just talking about providing the basics that are a given.

As you can see above the time I want them to spend with ds is time limited, ie one game of chess or bake one set of cookies.

are selfish, also it's not easy as a teen to sit around being nice to someone who you not only have not much in common with, but who's also being rude to you/in a bad mood

I wouldn't expect it ever when he's in a bad mood, only when he's happy, and when that's the case he's adorable which the dd's freely admit

Why don't you get them to do more normal chores, to free up more of your time to spend with ds?

I strongly believe that we should not expect our children to be grateful for normal parenting.

What exactly should your DD's be grateful for? That you don't abuse them in any way? They are right to take that for granted!

I disagree that teenagers should just ‘accept’ that they are provided with nice clothes, holidays, every school trip, mobile phone etc etc as just part of being in a family. Teenagers need to appreciate what they are given & understand that with such privileges come some obligation to contribute towards family life.
My teenage DS is very fortunate in that he can share my (brand new!!) car now that he has passed his test (following the very expensive lessons which we paid for), but we do expect him to take responsibility for cleaning the car - but again, this is easier said than done.

I wouldn't expect it ever when he's in a bad mood, only when he's happy, and when that's the case he's adorable which the dd's freely admit

Adorable isn't usually a word I usually associate with teen boys but ok.

I just think you are wasting your time. As pp said above, teens act like putting one plate in the dishwasher is like terrible slavery so it's unrealistic and a complete waste of effort to try to get them to bake cookies.

They're not privileged for having a disabled sibling but for all the other things they have

And re normal parenting - you will all shout at me but I can honestly say from comparing what I do to my own parents, my siblings, friends - I do and provide way more than just the basics, and have been told this many times by friends and family.

They already babysit. Lifts are part of normal parenting, as is buying non essential items which are normal for their peer group if comfortably within your means rather than providing the bare minimum.

It would be lovely if they wabted to bake cookies with their brother, but YABU to say they should do it out of gratitude to you because you've parented them not just provided the bare minimum of necessities.

Also a game of chess or baking cookies both take one hour plus, actually that's a long time. When a normal chore like loading the dishwasher takes 5 minutes.

You can't make people especially teenagers spend time doing something they don't want to do. I know it hurts your son and you but there's nothing you can do. Your girls will start to resent you if you try to enforce anything. You do need to start making them do more around the house if you think they have a free ride. Your making them have a free ride and need to change that. Even my 3, 2.10 up to 7 tidy up after themselves and try to make their beds etc.