Ungrateful teens, but with added complication

[avenueq]

Dd's are 17 and 15. I can honestly say that I do everything I can for them, while having tried not to spoil them. So they want for nothing materially, but they haven't got the latest or most expensive stuff. They don't have to do a lot around the house, but are expected to help here and there. If they want to go out, I will always try to facilitate this, but they don't have too much on. We have been on many holidays but nothing too fancy. Every school trip they wanted to go on they've been allowed to go on.
They have a younger brother who is 12 and is both physically disabled and on the spectrum. This means there are things we cannot do as a family, and his moods can affect the family dynamic. Again I have tried to mitigate this by whenever I could doing things with the dd's alone, or dh doing the same. I do ask them to help out with ds, but not on a regular basis at all and only eg "babysitting" him when they'd be home anyway.
Recently with the dd's growing up they have not spent as much time with ds as before and while I accept that to some extent as normal I have tried to say to the dd's that they should maybe make more of an effort with ds than they would with a "normal" sibling because his world is small, he doesn't have any friends and he loves them very much. We have now fallen out because they have again made it clear how much they resent me making them feel guilty when I say they should sometimes spend time ds, and how little effort I make to understand how hard it is for them to have a sibling like ds. For the first point - it annoys me because that is one of the only demands I ever make on them, for the second point it upsets me because I just don't get what hardship they are suffering. There has not been a single instant ever when ds has stopped them from doing anything they wanted. But still they say they have it uniquely tough. When I point out what other families have to endure they say it's unfair to make that comparison.
Tonight I lost my rag and told them to "check their privilege" and to finally appreciate how lucky they are, but then just stormed out. I am not getting the vibe that they are taking this on board in any way.
Where do I go from here - have I spoilt them after all or do I need to be more understanding?

You can't force people to enjoy spending time with someone.
If you force this their brother will continue to be a source of resentment and a thing they're forced into.
Let it go, let them build their relationships with him when they're ready and out of the teenage funks and they will one day have a lasting relationship with him.

Ellen what I'd like the dd's to appreciate is that every family has limitations and that they are lucky in some areas where others are not, eg financially or how flexible I am in facilitating their social lives etc

But your DD's are at an age when they would be out and about with their friends a lot more. I would say it's completely normal to be spending much less time with younger siblings at that age.

There are a lot of contradictions in your posts as well - you say it restricts things as a family yet later on in the same post you say there isn't a single instance where DS has stopped them doing something. So which is it

The amount of chores teens do can vary wildly so it's about their perception of the situation

As I said teens are hard wired to be selfish

I'm now in a caring profession and as a teen I volunteered at a nursery for children with Sen and at a Sunday club for people who had had strokes -because I knew it would help a university application for my chosen career

-but ask me to care for my sister? Or make the connection that caring for my sister would help my mum out, when my parents had made the decision to have children?
That would not have even been on my radar

Think I was about 22 when I made that connection and moved on from the resentment I had towards my home situation

You say you can't do certain things as a family and that his moods affect the family dynamics -please don't underestimate the impact of this

I had severely disabled siblings growing up. I'm ashamed to say I didn't help much and I make much more of an effort now. But pushing it with teens won't help and will prob have the opposite effect. As some pp have observed, the focus on siblings with SN when you are a child wanting attention feels unfair at the time and some don't appreciate the amazing jobs parents in these circumstances do until they're older. You have made your point to them but for now there's not much more you can do

If they're unwilling to spend more time with DS, get them doing their fair share of chores to give you more time with him or just a break!
Not because they're NT but because they are older and should be taking on more responsibility somewhere within the household.

Example - they wanted to do go ape on holiday they have done it with dh, but we couldn't do it as a family.

They are never ever expected to not go out to be with ds or the family, just to spend some time with him when they happen to be in, or occasionally (once every couple of months) to look after him when I'm not there. All that involves is helping him with meals and maybe putting socks on, otherwise he'll be on his ipad.

With respect OP, their brother is a sibling, not a chore they should be expected to do out of some kind of gratitude.

Where possible siblings should live harmoniously but the reality is that they’re not responsible for the fact he doesn’t have friends, They’re his siblings, not his carers.

If you expect them to spend time with him and be his friend substitutes then the risk you run is that they will start to see him as a chore rather than a sibling.

Can I ask, what provision are you making for his future? Will he be capable of independent living when he’s older and if not what steps have you put in place for when he is old enough/when you’re not around any more. You won’t be able to expect his siblings to care for him as they’ll have lives of their own by then.

OP, I'm wondering if this is more about you than them (the DD's) tbh. Support seems hard to come by when you are caring for someone. Is there something in particular that has triggered this today?

I think regardless of your ds disability, an important value to me is family and I try in still this in my dc.
I would insist if one child was having a hard time for example for the other sibling to spend a little quality time to cheer them.
So the fact you son needs a little more emotional support from his siblings I think you are totally right to expect you dd's to offer a little time.
You are meeting his caring needs, you just want you dd's to provide a friendship for an hour or so. That's not a lot to ask I don't think.

At this stage it's still hard to tell how independently he'll be able to live. There are definitely 100 % no expectations on his sisters in that regard.
Re - seeing it as a chore. Isn't it in the same category as for example spending some time with an elderly relative. Isn't it what should happen in families- looking out for each other?

I don't underestimate the impact of his moods etc at all, and have many times acknowledged this in conversation with the dd's. Interestingly when they were younger they dismissed it as not a problem- whereas now they are older and much more leading their own lives they are resentful of it.

I think you are right and that their response is a normal teenage response. I agree though that to call spending time with their sibling a chore is a bit unfortunate. I expect they can find it challenging and also would complain about whatever you asked them to do.

What I hope for/expect is something like - at the weekend, spend 20 to 30 mins on Sat OR Sun playing a boardgame or baking or similar

It's not me calling it a chore.

Also, I would only ever expect them to do this kind of thing when ds is in a good mood - and when he is he is not difficult at al

I just don’t think many 15 and 17 year olds want to spend time with a 12 year old. If he wasn’t disabled would you expect them to?

Some older siblings like taking care of younger ones and some don’t.

I do think they should be doing chores though and I’m not sure why they’re not?

They need to learn how to cook and clean before they leave home.

That is the point - I expect it because he is disabled. Because he is the "weakest link" of the family and charity begins at home? And I don't think I expect that much - see above.

In some families spending time with grandparents is definitely seen as a chore when DC are teenagers. I remember my DH in his late teens squabbling with his younger brother about whose turn it was to phone their grandmother and check she was okay. They were both nice people who loved her but family obligations can be a chore particulary at that age. They were both much more interactive as they got older.
I had younger siblings that I did caring work for but I very much felt my parents had chose to have these other DC and I wasn't always thrilled at being asked to pitch in. Like many teenagers I wanted to develop my life outside the family unit.
If you want them to help you then talk to them about what support you would like and ask them for their views. Set it up as a regular part of their lives. They won't be teenagers for ever.

Ugh teens and kidults are awful! They are prone to extreme selfishness, resent fullness and a very one sided perception.

I think what you ask is reasonable and an important statement of your values. I would advise you to keep saying it, there will be no epiphany but it will sink in in the end. Could you tempt them by facilitating them to do something with him that they would both like to do? Like pay for a cinema trip, show or concert.

Or sometimes an older sibling may respond to teaching, or showing a sibling how to do something or even how to play a game on the computer.

You are in the right and may just have to keep battling.

I have a physically disabled brother and as a teenager I was pushed a lot by my mum into spending time with him and pretending how wonderful I thought he was. I really didn't like him and tbh we don't have a lot in common. I did resent him a lot as all I could see as a self absorbed teenager (like most teenagers) was how unfair it was that he got more attention. When I left home, I finally got a break from being forced to spend time with him. This has been beneficial to our relationship and although we won't ever be best of friends we enjoy spending time together when we do. So don't force it as that could make them resent him more.

Go ape

From your point of view they still got to do the activity

From their point of view a parent (and it could have been either of you) chose to spend time with their sibling rather than with them

You are all coming at this from different angles -at the moment they are incapable of moving willingly to your angle, you are the adult here and you need to see it from theirs or resentment will build up on both sides

Sorry, haven't RTFT, but I think the problem at this age is that they can't be empathetic - the structure of their brains change so they are physically incapable of evaluating risk/showing empathy.

That is the point - I expect it because he is disabled.

I’m not convinced it is though. It probably doesnt help, but they wouldn’t want to spend time with a NT 12 year old boy either.

I don’t remember any of my friends spending much time with younger siblings at that age - far too much academic work and self obsession.

I wonder whether I'm unreasonable to expect them to give something back to the family But that isn't what this is about, surely? They do not have to give anything back, they do not owe the family anything.

What this is about is your poor DS and how it would help him if they spend some time with him. It is nothing to do with them having any obligation or duty. Your DS NEEDS them. Is there a way you can spend more time together as a family, including DS. Perhaps find something fun for them all to do. That way everyone benefits, including DS.