Teenage daughter hasn’t spoken to her older brother for 18 months.

[Bexesangel]

Dd ( now 17)has been a challenging teenager to put it mildly.
18 months ago she was extremely rude (again) to me in front of her brother ( now 19).
Her brother reacted and grabbed her and pulled her hair and slapped her and told her he was fed up of her behaviour towards me.
Since that time Dd has point blank refused to interact/speak to her brother.
Last year on her birthday he wrote her a card & said some nice words in an attempt to apologise- however because he wrote LOL in the card she said it wasn’t a proper apology & he was making light of what he had done - and so the ignoring continues.
Understandably this has caused me a great deal of stress and living together is so uncomfortable.
My son is so upset and regrets what he did.
He says that living with her is so awful he wishes she would leave & live with her father.
I have tried so many times to get her to see that her brother is sorry and to let bygones be bygones but she won’t.
Christmas is coming up & I can’t see how we can have a happy day with such an awkward atmosphere.
I have suggested taking the 2 of them out for a meal / other events but she just refuses.
I have just suggested this again and lost it when she refused- asking her what sort of Christmas she thinks we’ll have & telling her if she keeps up this grudge she can go to her Father for Christmas.
What can I do?

But yes @NerrSnerr of course she is allowed to know what she thinks is and isn't acceptable to her. In this case she has been hurt by his actions and doesn't want to speak to him. She is completely ok to feel that way of course.
It's the uproar about him slapping her I was getting at, it sounds like a sibling spat rather than a vicious assault.

Assault - my god how Mumsnet is this 🙄

@JellieEllie I didn't see that thread but I probably wouldn't have agreed (but obviously hard to say without reading the thread).

My siblings and I never hit each other as teenagers (and would have been in very serious trouble if we did). It's not normal for a lot of people and it's certainly not normal if the other person doesn't want it.

'You deserved it' is a line that is used by abusers and in my eyes no one deserves a slap. If they wind you up that much you need to walk away.

If you can find it have a read. I can see both sides.
Trust me, as a teenager I definitely deserved a few slaps. 😂
I understand different families have different rules, but on the whole I do think siblings fight and bicker and it is more acceptable with your brother/sister than speaking to a friend or stranger in that way.

I was on that thread, too, Jellie. I was astonished by how many posters thought it was ok for a father to tell a young girl that she could expect to get punched one day because of the way she was behaving.

On this thread, again, it's clear that many people think it's fair game for an almost adult male to assault his fifteen year old sister because she was behaving like a brat.

I guess it's no wonder that domestic violence is so common in this country, off those are the attitudes that kids are being brought up with. The perpetrators probably believe that the victims deserve it.

OP - the problem is that your son is not really sorry for what he did otherwise he would have made a proper apology without the sarcastic "joke" lol. You have have given him the green light by minimising and deflecting that this is no big deal - you sound like one of those mothers who defends their adult son beating their DP/DW with your "oh it was just a hair pull and a slap" and "she provoked him".

Siblings may fight but at this age you shouldn't be minimising - you need to make it clear that resorting to violence is totally wrong. But you don't seem to be taking it very seriously and expect your DD to forget it to give you a quiet life.

My Mum was a bit like you. My older brother had a tendency to snap when frustrated - but only when the person was younger/smaller. Once when my parents were away for the weekend when I was 14 and he was 20 he held me against the wall by my throat because I asked him to wash up. I was really scared - even now 40 years later I remember how scared I was. I told my Mum and at first she seemed sympathetic, I asked not to be left alone with him and she promised not to leave me alone with him. But then she started minimising and deflecting and how "it wasn't that bad". So I felt betrayed by my Mum because she did not take it seriously and wanted to to sweep it under the carpet. This is probably what your DD feels now as she never got a proper apology and you are pressuring her to give in by failing to make your DS apologise properly. My DB is dead now - the problems in his late teens/early 20s were early indications of MH and alcohol problems - but DM minimised this as well because it didn't happen in "naice" families.

Ok so harsh words needed on both sides they both need to know that the behaviour is unacceptable she should not lip off he should not smack she needs to get over herself so does he she shouldn't have to move out both of them should show more respect

And if you achieve that please apply at the UN

Buttery and others claiming that the same standards should apply on all MN threads - MN isn't a hive mind. There are thousands of active posters. Different people open and respond to different threads.

The people who apparently believe 17 year olds are children who can't take taxis or that fathers should threaten their daughters with being punched or that teenagers choking their brothers are fine and dandy are clearly not the same people as the ones saying that it isn't a normal or healthy family dynamic for a 17 year old to slap and hair pull because his 15 year old sister is verbally rude to their mother!

People being wrong on one threads doesn't mean seperate people have to adopt the same wrongness on another thread

I wonder if the genders of the offending siblings were swapped around, and it was the twatty son who was eventually slapped by his sister for being vile to mum, would the situation be regarded as different then? Assault is a strong word and I'd imagine may people responding to this have drawn from their own experiences when responding.
I would separate the two issues here and deal with them individually. Firstly your son should never have taken the parenting into his own hands and disciplined his sister. It was morally right if him to support you, but completely wrong to reinforce it with violence of any sort. Secondly your daughter needs to show you respect as a parent. You need to sit down with them both separately and have calm conversations about the behaviour you expect in your home. I would lay out firm boundaries and be prepared to stick to them. Physically, emotionally or verbally abusive behaviour will not be tolerated. Your daughter and son both need to understand the strain that their behaviour have put in your household.
Could their father support this in any way?

Asteria if the sexes and ages were swapped around the power wouldn't be as unequal. A 17 year old boy/ young man has gone through puberty so he's likely to be a lot stronger than a 15 year old girl/ young woman. If one person is bigger and stronger than the other then it is more frightening for the smaller, physically weaker person to be attacked, in however "minor" a way.

A 17 year old woman attacking a 15 year old boy still wouldn't be remotely acceptable even if she were the same size as or smaller than him. If she were bigger and stronger than him that would mske it worse.

17 year olds are old enough to know better than to slap and hair pull as a response to verbal rudeness. That's a response a 7 year old should be growing out of and totally unacceptable in anyone over 10 imo.

He's apologised. What were the consequences for his behaviour?

She's not accepting the apology.

It's not right for you to try and force her to.

Being pressurised to do what other people want is not on.

Is she still being verbally abusive to you? What are the consequences?

I think that her behaviour towards you and his behaviour towards her are 2 separate issues.

What is her behaviour towards you like now?

Was her previous behaviour directed just at you or everybody?

I can totally see why she's refusing to talk to him.

What happened last Xmas?

They will both move out before long & then you can have separate relationships with them. I'm sorry that this or a few next xmases may be sucky, but Xmas is just a contrived festival. Not truly important.

FWIW, we had something a bit similar & my 2 were speaking to each other immediately. They may never like each other again but neither of them held the whole family hostage over their differences for months afterwards. I can't speak for OP, but my 'younger' girl is definitely the scariest person in our household.

counselling sounds like opening a giant can of pointless temporary worms, but I do wish you well whatever path forward you take.

I would separate the two issues here and deal with them individually. Firstly your son should never have taken the parenting into his own hands and disciplined his sister. It was morally right if him to support you, but completely wrong to reinforce it with violence of any sort. Secondly your daughter needs to show you respect as a parent....Physically, emotionally or verbally abusive behaviour will not be tolerated.

This is good advice, OP.

To everyone calling the son out for abuse and giving analogies about boyfriends slapping girlfriends....if a husband was psychologically and emotionally abusive to his family for years and everyone in the house lived in fear of upsetting him and one day he turns on his daughter and is verbally and psychologically abusing her and the milf mannered but worn down mother snaps and smacks him over the head with a pan, who is the bad guy?

Even the law makes distinctions regarding physical attacks. Provocation, emotional damage created by the person who got hit by the pan..... so if a woman is in a position to say that years of emotional abuse made her snap, why are you so unwilling to apply this to a 17 year old minor?

solly where are you getting years of emotional abuse of a minor from?

Bex describes a 15 year old who has been rude to her mother since becoming a teen. So a minor being rude to an adult. Can a 13-15 year old emotionally abuse an adult? I have no idea, I think it's a stretch to say that but maybe you could argue that.

There is nothing whatsoever to back up the idea that the then 17 year old had suffered years of emotional abuse from his 15 year old sister. The OP says he was sick of his sister being rude to their mother - the fact he decided to give her a slap and pull her hair for being rude to their mother is suggestive of a very odd family dynamic, but not of him being emotionally abused by his 15 year old sister.

Do either of them have plans to move out?

There’s no law that says we have to speak to our siblings, if they weren’t under the same roof (which they won’t be one day) problem solved (as much as it ever will be).

You lied about her age and I don't believe it was a 'light' assault either.

Any excuse to justify a man hitting a girl

Please detail how your don has appologised. Has he made a heart felt apology in person? Yes LOL makes an apology empty. Has he attempted a meaningful apology? If not that is your first step

The next step is to spend some quality time with your DD and build a better bond. Have fun. Make her feel valued. Give her hugs and warmth. She may feel that he is the favourite golden child so the acting up and ignoring gets her some attention.

What’s your behaviour to her like?

Bex describes a 15 year old who has been rude to her mother since becoming a teen. So a minor being rude to an adult. Can a 13-15 year old emotionally abuse an adult? I have no idea, I think it's a stretch to say that but maybe you could argue that.

I insisted that my DD (13) went to an event today to support her friend. She didn't want to go as she thought it was "for younger kids" and has texted "I hate u" several times and an emoji giving me the finger.

I view that as verbal abuse and have told her it's not acceptable. I'll be telling her that in person when she gets back! I can quite see how a teenager's behaviour could escalate into emotional abuse if they're not given boundaries.

AmIcrazy I think it's a huge stretch in 99.9% of cases to say anything a minor can say o their parent is emotional abuse, given the power discrepancy is all on the adult's side, and the unique parent - own child relationship.

Even if it can be argued that it is possible to call the behaviour of a 13-15 year old towards their parent emotionally abusive, the fact remains that the 17 year old brother was not "suffering years of emotional abuse" - he decided to slap and hair pull because of a verbal interaction between his younger sister and their mother. The pp was trying to claim the 19 year old man (then a 17 year old boy) had suffered years of emotional abuse from his 17 year old sister (then 15 years old), but there is nothing suggesting that in the OP's posts.

Of course a teenager can emotionally abuse a parent. Teenage girls are famous for their talent at emotional bullying.

Actually AmICrazy the very fact you could force your 13 year old to attend an optional event against her clearly expressed will just because you personally thought it was the right thing to do proves the power is all on your side. It's a massive stretch and a bit ridiculous to try and cast her as an abuser for having a young teen strop via emoji and text speak!

If you're actions are those of a parent, hers are those of a child. You are exercising power not found in an equal relationship and she is acting out the response of the powerless with few options.

You are either parent and child, with an unequal power relationship, or equals. While you hold all the power to make her do as you say because you're her parent and she's dependant on you for food, shelter, clothing and love, you cannot cast her as your abuser.

Your not you're