Please, anyone who can advise me about my daughter?

[Janstar]

It's my dd1 again, some of you may remember the thread about her suicide attempt.

She has continued with the counselling, but we do not get far. She treats it all like an infantile game and it is only by accident she sometimes confides.

At home, she seems very much happier in herself, is doing lots of things with her friends, and has overcome a few problems she had with getting caught in the cross-fire of their arguments. At times she seems her old cheerful self.

But most of the time she is sullen and rude. I thought perhaps it was just normal behaviour for a 14 1/2 year old. But it is getting out of hand. She particularly upsets dh and me by constantly saying that she doesn't like dh. He is a wonderful family man who has been in our lives for 6 years now, he works hard to provide for the childrens' every need and did not bat an eyelid a few months ago when every penny of our savings went on the court case to protect the girls from their father. When his parents disowned me and the girls because of their false beliefs about me he dropped them from his life without hesitating, to support us.

The two of them have always had communication problems, dh's response is to read books about how to talk to teenagers in his very limited spare time, to bite his tongue a lot and work very hard at trying to find common ground with her. Her response is to pick fault with every little thing he says and does.

Last night she complained about him again, saying she just didn't like him and there was nothing that could be done about it, she made me cry this time. She had also made dd2 cry by telling her that she did not love her and wishes ds (3) had never been born.

The words 'thank you' and 'sorry' do not exist in her vocabulary although I have brought up my children to be polite. If I tackle her on any of these points she tells me that she doesn't care about any of it and doesn't care if we give up on her.

I understand she is pushing us but she is hurting us all and bringing the whole family down. I felt it was time to get a bit tougher with her. I have been very soft because I was afraid she would attempt suicide again. But I feel this is not helping her, she has become very selfish and uncaring about other peoples' feelings. At her age she is almost an adult and needs to take some responsibility for her own welfare and stop wallowing.

I had a go at her last night, reminded her of all the support she is getting from everyone here, how we would all do anything for her if we felt it would help her reach happiness, but that she could not go on insulting everyone and abusing their feelings. I said I did not want to hear about it any more, that she should take a good look at herself and her attitude. I said it would do her good to count her blessings and she said, 'what blessings?', that is the sort of thing we get every time. She did not come down for dinner and I did not go up and try to persuade her.

This morning I tried to talk to her again and mentioned one of her friends who is polite and kind to her younger sister, but she just stormed off to school, so rudely.

Was I too hard on her? Or is it time to get tough? It all feels so risky, I am afraid she will try suicide again, or run away.

Help!!

I know this sounds unlikely but after reading through this thread, there seems to be a lot of focus on her suicide attempt (naturally). Is it possible she knows this is constantly in your mind and manipulting you because of it? Did you get counselling afterwards?
As for the room, I was a particularly untidy teenager (still untidy!) and when my mum got particularly fed up with the state of my hovel, she would wait til I was out and then pile everything up in the middle of my room. This involved chucking my bed on the top of the pile and my covers on the bottom. After one attempt to sleep on the pile, I fell off and banged my head on my stereo. This worked for me.
Hopefully when she's away, you get a bit of peace and quiet. Also might be an idea to look at changing her counsellor.

Thank you all, Janh, I was waiting for your words of wisdom to hit the screen. As for the toiletries thing, we keep everything in the bathroom and have 'family stuff' for everyone. If anyone wants to use someone else's stuff they should ask. We also keep her supplied with enough money to buy herself anything particular she wants.

Soapbox, I don't think I'd go to that extreme...but that seems quite mild compared with your experience, gscrym! Blimey! When you read stuff like this you can see how mad teenagers drive their parents, can't you?

She did have counselling, but hated it with a passion. It's come to an end now, because the crisis is over and she isn't suicidal any more. She's just a b**y difficult teenager, but I don't think that justifies putting a burden on the NHS any longer.

Just told dh the news. He thinks we should start treating her like a child again till she shows signs of growing up, ie drastically lowering her allowance and the amount of freedom she has and paying a babysitter to watch her (and the others) when we go out.

So were the toiletries etc your own things, Janstar? Do you think she really is intentionally stealing from you? Do you know when she took them?

Yes, they were mine. They're not anything I use that often but I did look for them the other day and wonder where they were. What annoys me is that she doesn't ask, she just takes things and doesn't put them back, and then I waste hours hunting for things.

I only had a quick look in her room and I found all that while trying to find something else. If I searched the drawers and the wardrobes etc I dread to think what else I would find.

Hi again Janstar. Just a few thoughts.

Let me put myself in your daughters shoes.

1. It is her room, her private space, Keep the
   door closed andyou won't have a problem, going
   in there is guaranteed to aggrevate you, don't
   go in unless you are looking for a reason to
   be upset and you will ALWAYS find a reason

2. Stealing. I never stole a thing in my life -
   except makeup and toiletries from my mom. One
   doesn't think of it as stealing - just
   borrowing without permission. Ok it is selfish
   and wrong. But I wouldn't confront her on it,
   just add 'missing cosmetics/toilettries' to
   your list and add a consequence for their
   disappearance that's all... she'll get the
   picture. Borrowing makeup from mom is a
   rite of passage, of course your knowing about
   it is best

3. I don't think you should let your daughter go
   on the trip to berlin. If you gave her money
   for it already then she might be wanting the
   money for other reasons. Also, I don't think
   you should give her another chance - just that
   if this trip was so important to her she
   would have made sure you knew about it 1
   month + in advance and had it scheduled into
   your calendar. She won't play you for the fool
   the next time she wants to go somewhere if you
   do this, she'll plan. Seems to me that she
   'conveniently forgets' to tell you about last
   minute trips & hikes etc. because if she tells
   you in advance you might ground her for it.
   The time to be tough is NOW!

4. Beer in her room again... well as an American,
   from my growing up experience I can tell you
   that underage drinking is a HUGE no no. I
   think if I had a daughter I'd put some fear
   into her by making her have a 1 day session
   at an alcohol anonymous group to see what hell
   these people have to go through, ie. how
   alcohol ruined their lives. Also, you should
   reinvestigate your daughters friends - in a
   bid for your dd to be normal, she may do
   anything to 'fit in'...

Thats all for now. Treating your dd as a kid is a good start but I'm telling you drawing up an action/consequences chart will help you through the next few years with less arguments. Kids need this kind of structure.... and dealing with a parent's wishy-washy punishment decrees without any law behind them is maddening and leads to the feeling of persecution vs. structure...

AmericanAngle

pps. Don't do it! I don't know if I am too late but going into her room and rifling about (WITH HER KNOWING OR FINDING OUT ABOUT IT) is a HUGE no no.. you will be destroying trust & privacy - the building blocks of a relationship with a teen as they grow into adulthood. This is a sensitive issue!

If you do rifle about your daughter must never know anything except the values you want to teach her in life. You can take indirect brainwashing corrective behavior action without direct confrontation. Ie. Make her watch a well planned documentary about drinking.

Finally - given the incident with the boys, yes I believe you should remove some of the freedoms you currently give her. Mind you, she might 'sneak out' anyway etc.

While I don't have kids yet, I can tell you that I plan to keep full series of certain shows/sitcoms on hand since they always invariably address typical growing up challenges. Ie. My favorites are Little House on the Prarie, the Huxtables, Brady Bunch, Family ties, my So Called Life, and a few others. What do you think?

Taking and not putting back is a different problem - have that with millions of things with all the kids - drives me WILD! One of AA's consequences could apply to doing that - "you don't want me in your room? Don't keep my things in there or I'll come looking for them".

The beer might be a big deal for an American kid but it really isn't for an English one. If it was vodka I'd be a bit more bothered about it at her age. How do you feel yourself about her having beer occasionally?

Did you find the E111 btw? If not pick up another blank from the PO (ours has them out, you don't have to queue) and make her deal with the morons to get it stamped while you wander round the shops or something. Responsibility may be a grown-up thing but it is bloody boring sometimes - let her share it with you! (At least I don't think you have to be there?)

Hi there, AmericanAngle, it is so kind of you to look in on me here so often.

The trip to Belgium is already paid for and is important for her school work. She didn't spring any of these trips on me, after all, I have to pay for them! What she does spring on me is the running around for requisites for the trips. She tells me it is all sorted and then at the last minute suddenly there is a list of shopping to do.

My dh also feels inclined to stop her going to Belgium in spite of the wasted money. I don't know. What I have said is that I won't run around to replace the E111 so that she can go. She will have to collect the forms and bring them home for me to fill in and then take them back to the Post Office to be endorsed. (does anyone know, by the way, if an adult needs to take them for some legal reason?)

As for the beer, dh and I drink alcohol at home and often offer her a small glass of wine as we believe it is a normal part of life. She rarely wants one. I can't understand why she hid this beer in her room - it's the secrecy and not asking that bothers me. Likewise with the toiletries. She actually has a lot more toiletries and cosmetics than I do and I don't understand why she pilfers mine. I don't consider it a rite of passage - it's very very annoying when you go to use something and it's not there. It drives me up the wall. There is no need for it.

I don't want to go in her room. But neither did I want to chase around obtaining another E111 when I knew I had given her one already. And if I find she is stealing from me I'll go in and retrieve my belongings. She evidently feels no qualms about trespassing into my territory when I am out in order to collect these things! Perhaps if she thinks there is a possibility I might check her room she will refrain from hiding beer in there!

AA, if you think I shouldn't go in her room, do you think I should put the beer back so she won't know I've been there? Tricky, isn't it? I never would go in her room just to snoop, but in this case she refused to tidy up and find the E111, so I felt perfectly justified to go in and look for it.

Of course, it is easier for her if I go and get another E111 than it is for her to tidy her room. The inconvenience to me doesn't enter into her equation.

Janstar, our posts crossed - we are SO on the same wavelength about this!

AA, don't you think trust and privacy should be a two-way thing? And if broken by one, the other is entitled to break it too?

If you took the beer out, for her to kick off about it, she'd need to admit having it in the first place. Teenage dilema #200.
I think it's fair to say to her 'well fine, you lost the E111 form so you'll just have to arrange for it to be replaced and I can't do it.' She'll think that because you've spent all this cash on her trip, you're bound to fold and do it for her. Try not to. Like has been said, she has to learn consequences.
As for the cosmetics, toiletries etc, does she get an allowance? If so, deduct the cost of what she takes from it. In years to come, you'll probably get her on the phone saying 'OMG, my kids done x,y, and z. I was never like that, was I?' Then you can tell her all about her surly youth and remind her that should you ever need care at home, it's going to be up to her.

I know, what you said about having a glass of wine in Beety's field is something I often think of and hope that day will come! Has that plan been abandoned now?

I really value AmericanAngle's views too - she seems very much inside the mind of a teenager and that's so helpful. Thanks AA.

sorry, posts crossed, I was talking to Janh there.

The party in the field hasn't been mentioned for a while - there wasn't a huge amount of interest this time - maybe because so many people will be on holiday on one date or the other. I'll go and bump it!

AA, nice idea about learning life from Little House or The Brady Bunch (you didn't mention The Waltons!!!) but I think these days The Simpsons and Malcolm in the Middle are nearer the mark.

gscrym, I love the idea of her changing my nappies when I am old!

I would have difficulty taking money out of her allowance for items filched since I am a hoarder and I keep enough stuff in the house to get me through a nuclear war. I'd have to count everything and edit my list every time I started a new bottle or pack of anything...life is too short, innit? She is actually making me feel exhausted as it is, just worn out.

Jansstar, I'm new here and my eldest is only 9, but like many others your thread has sent my mind back to my adolescence and the appalling things I put my mother through. In the invastion of privacy thing - when I was a bit older, my mother read private letters of mine from my best friend and drew the conclusion (correctly) that I'd been smoking dope. Although I do still consider this an unbelievable invasion of privacy, my main reaction at the time was surprise - firstly at how incredibly upset she was, and second that she didn't already know, as I hadn't particularly hidden the fact and considered it to be no big deal! It really is impossible to underestimate the absolute self-absorbtion of a teenager.

My feeling, fwiw, would be to give her the option: say you started to look for the forms, felt that to continue would be an invasion of her privacy, so that if she wants to go on the trip she will have to find it herself and tidy up while she does it and if she doesn't then you will go in and look. And if it's still not found, she can go and sort the replacement herself.

The Waltons/Simpsons thing made me think also of the Osbournes - wonderfully loving mother but no boundaries at all, and look what's happened to those kids. I don't mean to sound flippant, as having read your thread you sound a fantastic mother and stepfather and you're doing everything right.

Thank you bettybloo, how kind of you to read this very long thread!

When dd came home from school she told me her friend couldn't come for cake decorating and that we should carry on without her. So there was no point in holding off. I explained that I had been looking in her room and she said that the beer was brought round by one of her friends and that she had forgotten all about it. She hid it because she thought I'd be cross and not allow her friend here any more. She has in fact fallen out with this girl since and so that is not an issue.

I do think she is telling the truth (as far as a mother can tell).

She also told me that she thinks she has already handed in the E111 at school. When she asked the teacher today she told her that some had been handed in. I told her to make sure tomorrow before we run out of time.

She didn't seem to mind that I had looked in her room - I think she trusts me about not snooping. I did tell her though that I was disgusted with the state of her room and that if she didn't do something about it before the weekend, I would.

I'm glad I was up front with her now - I think it's usually best to ask if you are worried about something - well it worked out for us this time anyway.

That sounds pretty cool actually, Janstar! Good! (The beer explanation is a bit glib but could be true...) It's great that she didn't get angry anyway. Maybe you have a better relationship than you thought.

(What did she say about blitzing her room before the weekend though?)

She said okay, but she always says that.

Hello Everyone.

RE: "AA, don't you think trust and privacy should be a two-way thing? And if broken by one, the other is entitled to break it too?"

No, I don't believe in if you do it to me, I can do it to you. That's plain juvenile. I believe in, if you do it to me- I will explain why it is wrong and how you've hurt me and if you do it again, you'll understand that the following consequences will apply... Invasion of privacy can never be justified because it engenders mistrust plain & simple. Janstar, your daughter said ok but it doesn't mean that the maneuver didn't hurt your relationship. It might just not be apparent to you. I'm sure it will come out - even if it take several years.

As far as the beer thing is going - I don't think she told you the whole truth and is probabally relieved you don't know. I've been emailing a friend from childhood and we've just been talking about this one girl in our highschool who drank. It turns out she actually did drugs (pot) too- we both can't get over it. Maybe I'm from fairy-tale-land here but am also from the 'just-say-no' (to drugs) generation.

RE: Makeup theft. Well, deducting from her allowance when your items go missing is a great idea - but can you prove she took something and not that you misplaced it?

My friend gave me a great idea about keeping a clean room that I want to share. She tells her kids that if they leave their toys/stuff on the floor, it means they don't value it and she will donate the stuff to charity for kids who really need/want it. And she follows through with it and has a bag for charity!

On another note, my husband had at least 20 different carry cases for his computer & stuff. I couldn't take it, so I made a deal with him - he can't get a new one unless he discards 2 old ones. Has anyone tried something similar with their kids?

Janstar good move about the form - if she wants to go make her resubmit the form etc. and take on the hassle herself... she'll think about losing it next time!

As far as the last-minute shopping trips go, I used to do this to my mom for college. (university). I'd tell her all sorts of things I was told I'd need and we'd go out on a really huge shopping trip and I'd invariably get a few extra things at the same time. All kids hoodwink their parents this way, don't they?

AmericanAngle

" these days The Simpsons and Malcolm in the Middle are nearer the mark"

But do you really want your kids to think that family life in the Simpson's is normal? If I could help it I'd never let my kids watch it. Firstly- Homer is repeatedly manipulated by his kids who don't show him much respect. His son has too much free reign and is downright rude. They scream at eachother. Can anyone add to this list? I don't know about Malcom in the middle - my family tv shows of choice (for hs years) were Family Ties and the Cosby Show. Bill cosby is just the ultimate father, and the lessons that are taught by American TV Shows are still good I think. You won't see drugs or drinking being considered acceptable.

AmericanAngle

Don't know if this is any help - but heard Radio 4 programme when Kate Figes was interviewed - she has written help books about teenagers and has just produced a novel about the relationship between mother and teenage daughter. She seemed to speak a lot of sense and I am planning to buy her book - it may just make some sense of the difficulties we encounter raising teenage girls!!