Please, anyone who can advise me about my daughter?

[Janstar]

It's my dd1 again, some of you may remember the thread about her suicide attempt.

She has continued with the counselling, but we do not get far. She treats it all like an infantile game and it is only by accident she sometimes confides.

At home, she seems very much happier in herself, is doing lots of things with her friends, and has overcome a few problems she had with getting caught in the cross-fire of their arguments. At times she seems her old cheerful self.

But most of the time she is sullen and rude. I thought perhaps it was just normal behaviour for a 14 1/2 year old. But it is getting out of hand. She particularly upsets dh and me by constantly saying that she doesn't like dh. He is a wonderful family man who has been in our lives for 6 years now, he works hard to provide for the childrens' every need and did not bat an eyelid a few months ago when every penny of our savings went on the court case to protect the girls from their father. When his parents disowned me and the girls because of their false beliefs about me he dropped them from his life without hesitating, to support us.

The two of them have always had communication problems, dh's response is to read books about how to talk to teenagers in his very limited spare time, to bite his tongue a lot and work very hard at trying to find common ground with her. Her response is to pick fault with every little thing he says and does.

Last night she complained about him again, saying she just didn't like him and there was nothing that could be done about it, she made me cry this time. She had also made dd2 cry by telling her that she did not love her and wishes ds (3) had never been born.

The words 'thank you' and 'sorry' do not exist in her vocabulary although I have brought up my children to be polite. If I tackle her on any of these points she tells me that she doesn't care about any of it and doesn't care if we give up on her.

I understand she is pushing us but she is hurting us all and bringing the whole family down. I felt it was time to get a bit tougher with her. I have been very soft because I was afraid she would attempt suicide again. But I feel this is not helping her, she has become very selfish and uncaring about other peoples' feelings. At her age she is almost an adult and needs to take some responsibility for her own welfare and stop wallowing.

I had a go at her last night, reminded her of all the support she is getting from everyone here, how we would all do anything for her if we felt it would help her reach happiness, but that she could not go on insulting everyone and abusing their feelings. I said I did not want to hear about it any more, that she should take a good look at herself and her attitude. I said it would do her good to count her blessings and she said, 'what blessings?', that is the sort of thing we get every time. She did not come down for dinner and I did not go up and try to persuade her.

This morning I tried to talk to her again and mentioned one of her friends who is polite and kind to her younger sister, but she just stormed off to school, so rudely.

Was I too hard on her? Or is it time to get tough? It all feels so risky, I am afraid she will try suicide again, or run away.

Help!!

Good point, crystaltips. I do have a night out with her occasionally, take her for a pizza or to see a film. Have to try and arrange one soon.

Twinkie - I'd love to be your mum.

Janstar, with regard to MN, you give as much as you get

Janstar
I hope i am not repeating what any-body has said - I havent got time to read this whole thread! (is very long).
Your daughter sounds like me when I was a teenager! I did the things you explain.

The good news is that now (as a 28 yr old) I see how great my mum is and all the things my stepdad did for me - but at the time I thought that they were mean and that the whole world was against me.
So I think that she will grow out of it.

I used to lash out at my family - especially siblings and my parents could do nothing right. I used to literally push them until they told me off - and then use this as amunition to say 'see you are always putting me down' or 'your prefer my sister'.
Ofcourse at the time I thought it was everybody else in the wrong - not me. I think my problems stem from my Dad not wanting to know me - so all my behaviour was a cry for help (even though I wouldnt allow people to help me). I too ran away - and in a way this is holding you to ransom - it is like saying 'do what I say or i will run away/hurt myself'.

You sound like you are doing everything right - and just keep on doing what you are. No matter how many times she rejects you, upsets the family - just be there because one day she will come to her senses I promise. The problem is not with you at all. She will work all this out in her head.
Hope this helps, it is hard to write down what you mean/feel in a few paragraphs! good luck

He he - but you'd be a granny if you were my mum and you are too young and beautiful!! XXX

Hi Janstar.....Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so may be repeating.....I have an almost 16 year old ds, boys are completely different to girls (obviously ) but I just wanted to let you know that things do get better. We have had a really crappy couple of years with him which I won't go into here but he has 'come back' to us if that makes sense. We still have our moments but it is better. Keep doing what you're doing and hang in there!

FWIW your dd sounds just like me at that age. I was rude and insolent and despite my parents best efforts basically went off the rails. I was drinking and staying out late, rebelling against something (I couldn't say what) but I know I wasn't a very nice person. I don't know when things changed for me, I suppose I just grew up but I know that I put them through hell for a good couple of years. I think ds was my penance . Good luck

You are a fantastic, fantastic mum and she's a troubled teenager. I think you are doing the best you can in trying circumstances. Don't blame yourself. Teenagers can be horrid at the very best of times and I am sure you will come through this.

Hi Janstar - no advice just to give sympathy - you must be having a nightmare. Hope things improve

When I was a shitty 14 year old (14 was the worst year of my life) I had my baby brother for company. He was my saviour. As I saw it my Mum's problem was that she wanted a conversation. She wanted answers, she wanted to provide me with answers. My brother listened to everything and never passed any comment. If I cried, he cried. If I wanted to be quiet he would quietly play with me. My Dad was OK too, because he felt awkward and so would just come and stroke my hair while I cried, without daring to say anything. Without trying he'd given me exactly what I wanted. So I agree with what crystaltips said - a bit of time together, just to share time together, not to sort things out.

I'm sorry about what you're going through. As everyone else has said, I turned out OK(ish) in the end (although I still haven't forgiven my Mum for talking rather than listening - and so haven't yet told her I'm even pg, let alone losing it!). But you sound like a great Mum, because you really are trying to listen to her.

My mom used to say that 14 was a "really sh*tty age", in her experience of 3 kids. After she died, I found all these letters from her to friends (my mom kept copies of all her correspondance) that repeatedly referred to me, as a 14-16yo teen, as ungrateful, rude, sullen... I was very suicidal-feeling at age 13, too, although I never acted on it. It's eerie, Janstar, that how you describe your DD is pretty much how my mom saw me!

So... I don't know what's "normal"; but what you're saying was apparently the norm in our house, too.

Have to agree with the other posters. I was also the 14 year old from hell, & I didn't have the excuse of a stepdad. I lived in a perfect nuclear family, mum, dad, boy & girl, with 4 grandparents. I can remember how it felt to be a teenager, with all these emotions whirling around and feeling like no-one really understood me- now I can also see how it must have been for my parents. (At the time, they were completely in the wrong!!)

I did have an aunt (mum's brother's wife) who I could moan to about my evil parents. That helped.

If you can't speak to your DDs friends, could you possibly speak to THEIR mothers? Sometimes this gives you a better perspective. With my own kids, I only ever find out what's going on at school by talking to someone else's mum.

My DD managed to miss out on this nasty phase until she started 6th form- thank god- then moved in with her boyfs family after a year! She is now a very pleasant person I would like even if she wasn't mine. BUT, she will still do things without any thought for anyone else, whine about nothing & so on. FWIW I don't think teenagers are ever grateful for anything- I know I wasn't!

Was it Mark Twain who said: when I was 17 I knew my father was a fool. At 24 I marvelled at how far the old man had come on in 7 years. (With girls & mothers it's 3 years earlier )

Thank you, thank you all so much. With her suicide attempt and what she went through in mind, and the fact that I had an abnormal childhood myself, I couldn't really come to the conclusion that what is happening is normal without all your insights here.

I feel so reassured that so many of you can relate to our situation, and feel it will be much easier to ride this out if I know it's a normal stage in her development, and not connected to her damage and her depression.

Perhaps she really is still on the mend, then!

Now all I have to do is convince my dh that if only he can bite his tongue for two or three years, she will realise what a great guy he is! That's if he doesn't leave home by then! Aaargh!

I can't thank you all enough for your support and help.

Sorry you are going throught this still Janstar. I was a horrid 14 year old btw, hanging out with bad crowd, smoking, bunking off school, dying hair blue, rude to my mum, agumentative etc etc. And look at me now!!!!!!!!!!! Lots of love to you and hope all will continue to get better nad better, i'm sure it will.

Hello Janstar.

I've been thoroughly reading this thread and thought I'd say a word or two.

First, it seems to me that you are afraid of being like your mom specifically because of how terribly hurt you were by the way she treated/didn't treat you. In short, you didn't get the reasurrance or something you needed from her. It is nice you are sparing your daughter the hurt feelings you had, how about trying to now figure out what hurts your dauther and making a few changes. The question is what does she need. If your daughter felt that she could talk with you without getting trampled upon in some way or forced out and that your conversation actually was helpful or reasuring, she would be opening up to you. Opening up to a parent is extremely difficult - a parent has to be non-judgemental(almost impossible), say just the right thing, not freak out, and not show disappointment. Some kids would die if they thought their parent would be disappointed in them.

Also, perhaps your daughter has a few more incidents with your ex-husband that she hasn't mentioned to you yet, maybe out of embarassement who knows.

The best and only advice I can give (having just put myself in your daughters place) is to get her out of family therapy and stick her in group therapy with other teens who have similar feelings, difficulties etc. The teens will learn to confide in one another and I can't tell you how important that is. A teen who feels utterly alone, that no-one really cares or could never understand and is suicidal is one to take very seriously. There is something huge in your daughters mind that is bothering her and affecting her life and making light of it is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

So suggestion #1: Group therapy for daughter.

Suggestion #2: Leave little encouraging articles
on mothers & daughter relationships around where daughter can read them when you aren't looking (circling or underlining the parts relevant to you)

Suggestion #3: Maybe daughter's school environment is a problem and just because her friends are polite doesn't mean they don't smoke, drink too much, do drugs, are overly free with their bodies etc. and they could still put peer pressue on your daughter.

Sorry, just a few things to think about.

You sound like a nice caring person, I hope you can figure a way to learn to understand your daughter.

I don't have any experience of parenting teenages, I have that delight to come! I have some experience of teaching them and I agree 100% with the person who wrote that adolecesence is a hormonal disturbance.

The point I would like to make is that teenagers are experiencing all sorts of changes when they are in their teensage years. The hormonal thing is a big problem and there are good studies that show that their brains are changing during this time. The area of the brain that controls emotion is being 'hard wired' in, which explains why our emotions are so extreem at that age. Nothing is ever just OK, it is either wonderful or horrific!

The difficulty is that the last area of the brain to mature is the area that controls the understanding of cause and effect, which explains why kids run huge risks re drink drugs and sex. To a real degree that simply can't understand that their actions have consequences, at least not as an adult would.

That is a possible reason for teenage behaviour, not an excuse, and I think that you are doing a terrific job with your dd. Heart of hearts she wants you to draw a line, it will help her to feel secure and safe in a world that is changing as she grows up. Best bit of advice that I ever read about raising teenages was, 'If they are acting as if you need to read them the riot act, read it to them, and the sooner the better'

I hope that things improve soon.

Hmb is perfectly correct. Teenagers literally can't help but think in black and white and be totally self centred. They are giant toddlers really.

Thank you for these suggestions. AA, you seem to have a lot of insight into her feelings, which has given me more to think about. Unfortunately she refuses to go to group therapy, she wants to finish therapy altogether, and I might let her soon. It seems to be helping slightly, but I don't want to go on and on with it when she is so anti.

She does talk to me as much as anyone, I think. As I see it the problem is that she has conditioned herself not to talk to anyone about her inner turmoil. She can't see the point of talking, and doesn't believe it changes anything, despite my explaining why it does in so many different ways. I think she is so used to not talking that she can't even get in touch with the part of herself that longs to confide.

One or two people who experience suicidal feelings as teenagers have said that they would not have been able to handle counselling at her age, and I have to consider the possibility that handling things her own way might be the best thing for her for now. I find this difficult because I myself have benefitted from counselling and I understand the value of it. I'm a firm believer in it but I do have to be careful not to steamroller her wishes with a surfeit of 'knowing what's best for her'!

I do understand this business of teenagers not being able to be any different in a biological sense, yes I saw the Robert Winston programme on TV. However, when I was a teenager I never indulged in this self-obsessed behaviour and so I do find it difficult to understand on a personal level.

I think one of my problems is that I never know how strict or soft to be with her. The whole business is a minefield, especially with the thought always in my mind that I have to keep her alive .

Janstar, no help whatsoever, but you're such a lovely caring person that I imagine if anyone can handle this you can. Thanks for all the support you've given me. Sorry it's so hard. Lots of luck. She's lucky to have you as a mum.

Janstar - could you suggest to her that she keeps a diary. And buy her a big strong box with a combination lock so that she can be sure her private thoughts stay private - she might find it easier to confide in a blank page rather than you?
Or search around the web and find the teen equivalent of Mumsnet? I can understand her feeling too self-concious to get much out of individual or group therapy, but she might find it easier to ask for support on an anonymous website - god knows we all do!

Pru, her counsellor has suggested a diary before and she says she wouldn't use it. If only I could even get her to want to confide. It seems she wants to forget instead. That would be fine, as long as the depression goes away, but I'm not sure it is going. If I could be sure it was just teenage moods I'd have more idea what to do, but it's so tricky trying to separate the wood from the trees.

I have just had a screaming row with her. The only time she speaks to me is when she wants to tell me that she is planning to go out, or wants to have a friend here overnight, or wants me to buy her something etc.

She asked if she could go away for the weekend with a friend. This leaves dh and I without a babysitter for the whole easter but we would have gladly put ourselves out for her if only she would do the same for us once in a while.

But the last time we went out we said, please could you tidy up the toys and empty the dishwasher while we are gone - ten minutes is all it would have taken but no, she forgot, as she does at least 50% of the time we ask her to do anything. We come back at 11 or 12 and she will be on the pc msning with her friends.

She has a job, cleaning the bathrooms once a week but we have to nag and nag before she will do it and then she skims over it and we have to nag again about details. She is being paid a large allowance for the babysitting and about an hour's housework a week and she just doesn't want to do the chores for the money.

I spend all my time running about after her giving her lifts so she can do all her extra-curricular activities, and never does the word thankyou pass her lips.

So I told her that if she couldn't give a s**t about anyone else in this family then I wasn't going to put myself out for her, and that she couldn't go on the weekend. I then watched her for a couple of days, saying nothing. I had decided that if she made some effort to try and please other people I would change my mind and let her go. But she stayed in bed till 2.30pm yesterday and then lounged about in her pigsty bedroom for the rest of the day. She then came to me at 10pm last night when I was tired and announced her social programme - out every day for the next week and said, is that okay?

I said ask me tomorrow morning when I am not tired and I will get my diary out and write down wheres and whens. She got up at 11 this morning and said she was off out and that she had told me last night.

I told her about how I had been watching her to see if I could change my mind about the weekend and she started to cry. I know if I had said 'do this chore and that chore and you can go', she would have done them and now she feels cheated.

I said surely we can do better than this, you never talk to me unless you want something, you use us like a service to ensure you can do all the things you want and never think, perhaps if I did this or that it would make someone happy.

She says she has tried before and given up. At the age of 14 given up completely.

I was so frustrated, I shouted and shouted at her and all she cared about was that I had made her late to meet her friends.

I said go then, but we will have the business relationship if that is what you want. You do what you like and I will do what I want without regard for working around you. If you are back one minute late you will be grounded for a week.

She disappeared in a blink of the eye, leaving me crying. I feel as if she hates me and I am so disappointed after all I have nursed her through.

Where am I going wrong? I don't want to just give in to her all the time, I think she is getting too spoilt and has lost all her manners. She is hurting all of us like this not just me.

Apologies for the length of this post.

Do you really think that your relationship is different from most other teenage girls and their mothers? I an remember having blazing rows with my parents over really silly things. Being lazy and not giving a sh*t about anyone else. Don't girls get a huge burst of extra hormones around this age?

I can't speak from experience as a parent as I only have boys and the eldest is 10, but I can try and say what I would do. You may already have tried it. Go back to a star chart, but a teenage one. Basically trade-offs. If she does x and y, then you will do z. If she doesn't do them, then neither do you. I think teenagers need stricter boundaries than toddlers, even if they rail against them more.

Sorry if this is all old hat to you. I've just read the beginning of this thread, which I hadn't done before typing the above. Do you know what caused the suicide attempt?

I think being the eldest is very difficult as, not only do you have to be the "pioneer" in everything, but you have to put up with the competition from younger and therefore probably more appealing siblings.

Do you have any one-to-one time with her yourself? Just shopping or similar. Maybe this is all to get your attention. Was the suicide attempt for this reason?

Again, I'm sorry if I'm going over old ground. I haven't had time to read the thread, just your most recent message.

I know that this won't really help but I was your DD. I didn't have a conversation with my parents that didn't end in a row, or with me in huff for about 2 years. I ate in my room, I hated my siblings and the fact I had to look after them (for 2 hrs on a saturday morning whilst my parents did the shopping!), every word anyone said was a personal dig at me and my parents hated me - or so I felt!

At about 16 I suddenly realised that I understood my mums POV, and then I realised we hadn't argued for a while and THEN I realised what a shit I'd been. I get on really well with my mum now.

I hope you can take some hope in the fact that she will get over herself. Its just living with it in the meantime. I wish I could offer some more constructive advice, but I'm sure someone on here will!

Have a good easter

Agree with Freckles about the eldest thing - it sucks. But my sister says that about being the middle child too!

Hi Freckle. The suicide attempt was over something outside the immediate family unit and is no longer a pressure, too long to explain but there is another thread about it.

She isn't suicidal any more, has been through a course of counselling and was discharged last week.

I am the eldest of 3 myself and so I can see the pioneering issue. But I struggle to understand the selfishness bit since when I was that age I was nursing my mother who was constantly drunk and running the household most of the time. And I would have done anything to please my mother, but couldn't! I don't buy this stuff about it being inevitable they are selfish - surely they could make some effort. They can when they want something out of it.

I'd love some one to one with her but she thinks being with me is really boring.

The star chart is an idea I hadn't thought of. Have you actually tried it, and if so how did you get on? I am intrigued.

Poor you Janstar, sound like your living in hell!
I too was like your dd, the difference was I had a little job so my mum couldnt control me with money. I lived in a shithole, only popped my head round the door to say where I was going...bla bla bla.
I would set some new boundaries. Tell her to do x,y and z and then she can have her allowance.
If she doesnt, no arguing, no screaming, just no, you havent earnt it. If shes got time to msn with her friends shes got time to empty the dishwasher. Sit her down and tell here these things have to be done by Friday night, or whenever and if they are you will leave her money on her pillow, if they are but they are not done properly, there will be deduction.
It will put her in control in a sense as she will know she will have to oblidge or there will be no cash at the end of it.
If you are taxiing her everywhere dont let her out the car till shes said thank you, you are her mum not her slave. Bet shedd say thanks to the bus driver. Tell her that.
My sister was the same with her mum, she moved out about a year ago and now they get on fine. More than fine. This is another hormonally driven stage and you WILL get through it. xx