Please, anyone who can advise me about my daughter?

[Janstar]

It's my dd1 again, some of you may remember the thread about her suicide attempt.

She has continued with the counselling, but we do not get far. She treats it all like an infantile game and it is only by accident she sometimes confides.

At home, she seems very much happier in herself, is doing lots of things with her friends, and has overcome a few problems she had with getting caught in the cross-fire of their arguments. At times she seems her old cheerful self.

But most of the time she is sullen and rude. I thought perhaps it was just normal behaviour for a 14 1/2 year old. But it is getting out of hand. She particularly upsets dh and me by constantly saying that she doesn't like dh. He is a wonderful family man who has been in our lives for 6 years now, he works hard to provide for the childrens' every need and did not bat an eyelid a few months ago when every penny of our savings went on the court case to protect the girls from their father. When his parents disowned me and the girls because of their false beliefs about me he dropped them from his life without hesitating, to support us.

The two of them have always had communication problems, dh's response is to read books about how to talk to teenagers in his very limited spare time, to bite his tongue a lot and work very hard at trying to find common ground with her. Her response is to pick fault with every little thing he says and does.

Last night she complained about him again, saying she just didn't like him and there was nothing that could be done about it, she made me cry this time. She had also made dd2 cry by telling her that she did not love her and wishes ds (3) had never been born.

The words 'thank you' and 'sorry' do not exist in her vocabulary although I have brought up my children to be polite. If I tackle her on any of these points she tells me that she doesn't care about any of it and doesn't care if we give up on her.

I understand she is pushing us but she is hurting us all and bringing the whole family down. I felt it was time to get a bit tougher with her. I have been very soft because I was afraid she would attempt suicide again. But I feel this is not helping her, she has become very selfish and uncaring about other peoples' feelings. At her age she is almost an adult and needs to take some responsibility for her own welfare and stop wallowing.

I had a go at her last night, reminded her of all the support she is getting from everyone here, how we would all do anything for her if we felt it would help her reach happiness, but that she could not go on insulting everyone and abusing their feelings. I said I did not want to hear about it any more, that she should take a good look at herself and her attitude. I said it would do her good to count her blessings and she said, 'what blessings?', that is the sort of thing we get every time. She did not come down for dinner and I did not go up and try to persuade her.

This morning I tried to talk to her again and mentioned one of her friends who is polite and kind to her younger sister, but she just stormed off to school, so rudely.

Was I too hard on her? Or is it time to get tough? It all feels so risky, I am afraid she will try suicide again, or run away.

Help!!

Janstar, your're such a great mum! I have all this to come in a few years so have no direct experience of having a teenager, only of being one...
I recently read a good book, The Wonder of Girls Understanding the Hidden Nature of Our Daughters.
by Michael Gurian. It's a bit american, but has some interesting stuff & I would recommend it.

One of the subjects is the nature of women's hormonal cycles and a lot of detail on how hormones affects our behaviour in a cyclical way (more extreme of course for teenagers). So we should not expect as women to be on an even keel with emotions and moods - that's just not how it works, it's not possible. I would recommend that you and dh and dd check out this part of the book, then you will all see how moods are beyond our control.

I think it is sensible to insist that everyone in your house treats the others with respect. I think teenagers need boundaries in order to feel secure - the art is in creating the appropriate boundaries and in recognising that these move with time.

All the best,
Scoobysnax
xxx

Wonder of Girls

this is my attempt at a link to some reviews of "The Wonder of Girls" - it has loads about girls' develomental brain biology, depression etc
but seems a bit of a love it or hate it book. My view is that whilst I do not agree with everything in it there is a lot worth reading.

Thank you all so much for your advice. I will check out those books too.

I am aware that she might be a bit of a man-hater at the moment because of her dad. But as for feeling guilty and disloyal for loving dh, I hadn't thought of that. All these little ideas help me understand better.

She went through some horror stories with her dad, discovering at 11 that he was running a porno business and keeping it a secret for two years, the whole story is on the other thread.

But I think there is still more to come out. A couple of days ago she mentioned in passing 'the only time she had ever stayed out all night'. When I questioned her more she told me that once when she was staying with her dad, she got so sick of being barricaded out of his sitting room with a chair, and hearing him and his girlfriend having sex, that she had sneaked out of his flat at 10pm, intending to try and find her way back to me (about 80 miles). She tried to get a bus but the driver told her to get off and go home, so we walked a couple of miles into town, tried to get a train. The station staff refused to sell her a ticket, asked her what her mother thought she was doing allowing her out in the night. Eventually she walked back and sneaked in at 5am. Her father never knew. She would have been about 9 or 10 at this time.

You can imagine how shocked I was and asked why she had never told me before. She said she thought she had told me. The event seemed quite insignificant to her in retrospect. I dread to think what else has happened at her dad's that I don't know about. What I do know about is bad enough that a court denied him any contact at all when it all came out.

I can understand why she gets cross with me when I insist that she call us for lifts after dark, etc, I suppose she feels invulnerable after all that she has endured in the past. It must seem patronising to her. But still very necessary, I think.

I wish I could give her her childhood back.

Fizog please tell your dad how special he is. It will be his reward for everything and make him happier than anything else ever could. I know it's a bit embarrassing, but please do it. Maybe write a letter.

I doubt very much that she feels invulnerable or patronised - no matter how much of a front she puts on. She could feel that she doesn't want you looking after her - when one parent has abandoned you (as her Dad effectively did) it's very easy to rationalise that if you are too demanding then the other parent will abandon you as well. With regards to lifts etc, can you put it to her as "I know you'll be fine getting home by yourself, but I'll be worried until you do, so let me pick you up for my sake" - it might be easier for her to accept things from you if she thinks she is doing it for your benefit rather than hers?

Oh, Prufrock, I think you might be right. She is always telling me that I should just give up on her because she isn't worth it. It tears me up.

Janstar, instead of insisting that she call you for a lift, couldn't you just say "call me if you need a lift home and one of us will come and get you" or "How are you going to get home, do you need a lift back later?"

By the time I was bout 15-ish I pretty much dd what I wanted, they asked when I'd be back, they didn't tell me. Then they'd say fine, if you're going to be any later can you call etc... things like that and it was ok, no, actually it was pretty good, my friends all thought I and (my parents) were really cool etc because I could pretty much do what I wanted. I guess because I knew I could I didn't always... in the end I worked out that it was cheaper to get my dad to pick me up or for me to stay at someones house and my dad pick me up in the morning.

I fell off the rails for a while again just after I left school but that's another story.

Have you asked what she wants? how she want's to be treated?

There's that famous saying about things getting worse before they get better.

Does she have any friends? I bet she's really polite at their houses.

Janstar I'm not sure what to say to help - this is all a bit raw for me - especially in my hormonal pregnant state, and I don't want to project my 15 year old self onto your daughter. But so much of her behaviour sounds familiar.
Bad news is I didn't stop feeling worthless until I met my dh at 21, and even then I almost drove him away numerous times. Good news is, I'm now a fairly well adjusted adult - but you don't want to have to wait 10 years to sort this out.
She's pushing as far as she can, because theres a bit of her that really does believe she's worthless, and she almost wants to prove that - if you give up on her- as my Mum did at one point - she will at least have been right. But giving up on her, or ever agreeing that she is pathetic, useless, not fit to be part of your family is completely the wrong thing to do.
At the same time, smothering her with your love is wrong, as she truly does think that you are only doing it for appearances sake - you couldn't possible be doing it because you do love her, because she is completely unlovable.
I'm desperately trying to think of practical things that would have worked for me. What finally did was dh accepting completely who I was (even though at that point I was a complete slag teetering on the brink of drug and alcohol addiction) and telling me that he couldn't live without me. I also managed to get a really good job, and finally started to think I could be good enough at something. I don't think your dd will have to go as low as I did - what almost finished me off was when I left home at 18 and told my family not to other contacting me, and they didn't - just don't ever give up on her.

Is there anything that she is good at that you could try to encourage so that she can get some recognition outside of your family? It's far easier to believe praise from a comparitive stranger who doesn't have to be nice to you.
And again, don't try to make her be happy - tell her that it's Ok for her to be miserable - you love her whatever. But that doesn't mean you have to put up with her crappy behaviour. I never minded my parents strictness over things like helping with housework and tidying my room.

oh -just remembered something. When I was 14 my Mum used to pay me extra pocket money to clean the inside windows (lots and lots of Georgian paned internal doors in our house) I got huge satisfaction from doing a good (in fact perfectionist) job, and accepted the praise because I could see it was justified. (that was until my mum started criticising me for being billy no mates becasue I preferred to clean windows than go out)

The lifts thing is a safety issue: we live in a village and she would have to walk in dark deserted streets to get home from anywhere. But that's not really a big issue. She accepts the lifts ok, though sometimes she gets cross with me when I pull her up on not being home at the time I said when she uses buses and trains.

Thanks pru, no I would never give up on her, though sometimes I want her away from me for a while. How did your mum get you to tidy your room, I feel as if I have tried everything. I don't understand the pigsty room, I think it contributes to her depression. It also winds me up that I clambered up ladders with a throbbing ankle to decorate it and trawled round Ikea letting her pick everything she wanted, and still it looks like Steptoe & Son in there. It feels like a slap in the face, but most of the time I bite my tongue.

She is doing Duke of Edinburgh's and we have supported her with that even though it has been expensive and inconvenient (having to drive her about to various activities with ds in tow just at the time of night when I should be making dinner and getting him ready for bed, for instance). I never even get a thank you, she just moans that it is all boring.

She does have friends, but she complains about them a lot too, says they are spoilt and immature. She thinks no one can understand what she has been through, but in some ways I think her friends have more maturity than she; they don't think it uncool to be polite, for example.

I think the friends are the ones she talks to most, although I know she holds a lot back from them. But they are there, and the bonds are strengthening, so I hope she learns to confide in someone.

She does chores to get her allowance. She does a bit of housework and babysitting, but a lot of the time she has to be nagged, it's as if she wants the money without making the effort, and that's just not going to happen. I'm not having her growing up expecting the world to hand her everything on a plate.

sounds like your the bestst mum in the world ever. in my view its more about control and who has it - sounds like your daughter has it. my 14 yr old could sit in his room all day until he said thank you for something - and i would expect him to come down and eat at the table. you do a lot for your daughter taking her here there and everywhere and a little appreciation wouldnt go amiss and i think you should tell her so - the next time she is rude tell her she will not be attending anything that week becuase you cant be arsed.

its like trying to get nuclear secrets out of my son
me..." what you doin?"
"gettin sommat"
"what are you gettin"
"sommat"
"WHAT?"
" a screwdriver"
"WHY?"

i ended up telling him i wasnt going to piss about and the next time i ask he better damn well answer in one damn sentance..he said sorry!

they are just a bloody nightmare arn't they? the things we let slide on a daily basis. but every now and again i have to assert control remind them all who earns money and what i do to earn it, the value of money and respect and good manners are just damn well expected or they can kiss my arse if they think i am doing anything for them. when the boundries are set things get better for a while!

hope this helps. everyones situation is diferent and your more than most and it sounds to me like your doing a damn fine job

Janstar - re the friends, they may be polite to you but are not necessarily polite to their own parents...

Do you talk to her friends at all? I mean when she's not there? I can imagine she would go ballistic at the idea of you going behind her back but they may have a better idea of her true state of mind. Just a thought.

Agree with all who've said that being offensive to parents is an almost essential phase of female adolescence and that the subsequent realisation of how embarrassingly childish one has been is pretty universal. Obviously your DD has more baggage than most thanks to her dad but even so she really should grow up eventually.

Also agree with whoever (spacemonkey?) said that loathing is a kind of mirror image of loving. If she was truly indifferent to DH then that would be worrying.

My 18-yr-old DD is, if anything, worse now than she was at 13/14/15 - obviously I don't have your worries about the fragility of her state of mind, but with mine the best way to stop her being foul is to just literally ignore her - behave as if she isn't there - it drives her nuts but eventually she calms down and will communicate properly.

Thinking about it, it was only when I left home that I stopped being a pain in the arse and started to grow up properly (and realise the error of my ways!).

I think it was stripymouse who made that point btw jan

mouse...monkey...something furry!

Agree completely re moving out btw SM - DD1 is in her 3rd year at uni, she had a gap year at home from 18-19 and was horrible, she regularly apologises for it now and is a pleasure to have at home when she visits!

js i was just talking to my dp he suffers with depresion because the symptoms sound very much the same a couple of questions he asks are
is she under a councoulor (i know i cant spell) or pyscotherapist (they specialize)
could there be a chance shes being bullied at school and this is the way its coming ot on her
also has she been tested for a hormoanal imbalance as this can affect her highs and lows

M2J, i think adolescence is hormonal imbalance!

This is a subject close to my heart though. I was sufficiently worried last year to take my dd to the doctor, who prescribed anti-depressant drops. I was really shocked, and decided against giving them to her. I guess what I wanted from the GP was an offer of counselling. Now I'm struggling to decide whether I should be seeking some form of therapeutic help for her, or whether her behaviour is typical teenagerishness (magnified by issues to do with my separation from her father).

I'm interested to know if you think that, despite what your dd says, the counselling is of some benefit to her janstar?

IME it was a waste of time at that age, but that doesn't mean it would be for everyone!

imo sm your gp should have offered counciling first the drugs are a last resort me andmy partner was just trying to think of every posible route she could take so it dont feel like shes just coming up against brick walls constantly i should know i feel like that every time my dp sees his shrink and all they do is change the drugs it gets me shouting sometimes saying its not just drugs you needit somebody proffesional to talk to

Wow, thank you all for you comments! I must admit I did feel a lot better last night, nothing had really changed, but the discussions yesterday made me feel better, especially knowing that people with perfectly good home lives had behaved this way as teenagers.

My poor dh is not faring so well, he came home very tired and stressed last night. He sees things much more in black and white than I do. He would be inclined to tackle things more as you do, Custy. I loved reading about your conversation with your son, and I wish I could be like that, I really do. It's just my parents were strict and my mother used to hit me and belittle me when she was pissed or grumpy, no matter what I did, she was eager to misinterpret my actions and words. I fear being like her so much that I find it difficult to actually deny my kids anything. I moan and threaten but rarely ever put them in a miserable situation. I know I should. DD tells me that our house is 'chore city' and that all her friends think I am harsh, also accuses me of never changing my mind. I shouldn't but I do take all this criticism to heart and worry that she might not feel loved. I was so alone and crushed as a child and I couldn't bear it if one of my kids felt like that.

Even as I am typing this I can see how dd is manipulating me with those remarks! But I just don't know how to harden up a bit without feeling I am being like my own mum was.

I'd love to talk to her friends but I never see them without her. And I am sure they are rude to their own parents too. I wish I could see how they handle it and get the tips.

Janstar, reading the book I mentioned further down the thread really helped me to stop taking my dd's behaviour to heart. It made me see that her behaviour is "normal", and some of the reasons behind it. Now I feel much more able to cope with it, and have stopped taking it personally. I'd offer to send you my copy, but I'm lending it to XH in the hope that he'll learn to handle dd better (he's taken to dumping her on my doorstep whenever she does the teenage thing). Also mumsnet has helped me loads to feel more confident as a parent!

Janstar there is a huge difference between being strict and your mother who "hit me and belittle me when she was pissed or grumpy, no matter what I did"
Try treating your dd like a toddler, and just ensuring that you criticise the action rather than the person - she will recognise the difference.
Your love for your dd shines through all of your postings, so I'm sure you are equally able to communicate that in person - it doesn't mean you have to be a martyr to her needs

As far as the rudeness goes, I had an interesting example yesterday - DS1, who is 15, stayed late at school to do some coursework, but had forgotten to tell me and rang up towards the end to let me know. When he got in he told me how staggered he was at the way a couple of the girls spoke to their parents when they rang them - "I'm doing coursework, pick me up at 5 - no, 5 - look, I'm finishing at 5 so be here then, OK?"

Apparently he told them he was shocked at how rude they were, and that he wouldn't speak to us like that, and they just said why shouldn't they, their mums would still come. Hm. Doesn't work like that in this house - if they want favours they have to be civilised.

As you prefer to pick her up when she's out on winter evenings, rather than letting her walk home, could you actually stop her going out at all when she's been really unpleasant on the grounds that she's not safe walking and you don't feel like doing her any favours by picking her up?

(And if she really thinks the Duke of Edinburgh's thing is so boring, tell her she can give it up - it's for her own benefit, not yours, so if she can't be arsed why should you have to trail her around? It's a no-lose for you - if she actually does want to do it she'll have to stop moaning about it, and if she really doesn't none of you will have to bother any more. I've used that line with all my kids about things like music lessons - it's partly an attention seeking ploy so just saying "OK, stop doing it then" makes them think again.)

I understand what you've said about not wanting her to feel unloved as you did with your mother, but you are so not like your mother I don't think there's any danger of that - she does know you love her but isn't interested in hearing about it - laying down the law a bit would do her some good. (Maybe!)

Hi JAnstar
You could maybe spell out to your daughter that because you love her you want to keep her safe, and this is why you have to impose certain restrictions.

She will be EXTRMEMELY glad she did chores once she leaves home as this will enable her to cope more easily with the real world - this is a main reason for why she has to do them. I had no chores as a child and it did me no favours. Can she see the pros and cons of having to do chores Vs not having to?

Another idea - ask her what she thinks it is like to be her mother (ie you) and how she woud deal with her daughter if she were her own parent. This might give you both some insights into each other's worlds. It's even possible that she thinks you are doing all the right things!!

My comments might be way off track so please ignore them if they are - just racking my brain for ideas!

Janstar,

I'm so sorry you're still going through this. FWIW (and I'm no expert, still have teenage children to look forward to) you do sound like you are doing all the right things. And your dh sounds wonderful.

To me, teenagers seem quite similar to toddlers - testing their boundaries, pushing to find what your limits are, utterly self-centred and self-absorbed. I remember it well - that feeling that NO-ONE understood me, and just feeling so angry with the world - and , like your dd, lashing out at those closest to me, mainly my poor Mum.

I'd just say, as with toddlers, keep plugging away at it, be consistent, say what the rules are and stick to them. She's had such a hard time with all this crap with her dad - I think she's just pushing you, seeing how far she can go, and has all that hormonal anger going on as well. Somewhere in there, she needs you desperately.

You are such a lovely person - she is so lucky to have someone so wise and compassionate for a Mum. I know you'll get there in the end - she'll be lucky to have you as a best friend and confidante one day - just hang on in there.

You people really are a lifeline for me. I sit here and read the helpful suggestions and insights people have posted while I have been out, and I always end up in tears, just of sheer relief that I am not the monster my daughter leads me to believe I am. I realised this morning wandering around Sainsbury's that her remarks do hurt me, far more deeply than I can explain to her (I have tried). With no mother or MIL, and no one in my village that I would ever just pop in and chat with, I can't ever express enough how much mumsnet helps me.

My best friends all live far away, and the one really good friend I have in this area is childless.

I guess that is why I am so hooked on this site!

Janstar - she is trying her hardest to piss you off and hurt you but kids never realise just how much things hurt till they grow up and have kids of their own - believe me.

Still wish you were my mum X

The support you are getting here is great - well done MumsNet ... and I second everything that has been said - about your DD moving the boundaries and pushing all the right buttons.

She is getting a reaction from you - and lets face it - kids are always looking for attention from their parents. Even bad attention is better than no attention.

I am certainly not implying that she is getting no attention but - from her mind - IF she behaves then it's a quiet life. You say earlier that you leave her to decide when to go to bed etc etc ... and quite right too - but MIGHT she be thinking that the younger ones are taking up all your time that the you don't have time for her - and that the only way she can get a reaction/you time is by kicking off.

Please don't take this as a criticism - I am just suggesting perhaps that's her perception of the situation - however irrational.

She is still your baby and needs perhaps time with you alone ...

perhaps ????