Please, anyone who can advise me about my daughter?

[Janstar]

It's my dd1 again, some of you may remember the thread about her suicide attempt.

She has continued with the counselling, but we do not get far. She treats it all like an infantile game and it is only by accident she sometimes confides.

At home, she seems very much happier in herself, is doing lots of things with her friends, and has overcome a few problems she had with getting caught in the cross-fire of their arguments. At times she seems her old cheerful self.

But most of the time she is sullen and rude. I thought perhaps it was just normal behaviour for a 14 1/2 year old. But it is getting out of hand. She particularly upsets dh and me by constantly saying that she doesn't like dh. He is a wonderful family man who has been in our lives for 6 years now, he works hard to provide for the childrens' every need and did not bat an eyelid a few months ago when every penny of our savings went on the court case to protect the girls from their father. When his parents disowned me and the girls because of their false beliefs about me he dropped them from his life without hesitating, to support us.

The two of them have always had communication problems, dh's response is to read books about how to talk to teenagers in his very limited spare time, to bite his tongue a lot and work very hard at trying to find common ground with her. Her response is to pick fault with every little thing he says and does.

Last night she complained about him again, saying she just didn't like him and there was nothing that could be done about it, she made me cry this time. She had also made dd2 cry by telling her that she did not love her and wishes ds (3) had never been born.

The words 'thank you' and 'sorry' do not exist in her vocabulary although I have brought up my children to be polite. If I tackle her on any of these points she tells me that she doesn't care about any of it and doesn't care if we give up on her.

I understand she is pushing us but she is hurting us all and bringing the whole family down. I felt it was time to get a bit tougher with her. I have been very soft because I was afraid she would attempt suicide again. But I feel this is not helping her, she has become very selfish and uncaring about other peoples' feelings. At her age she is almost an adult and needs to take some responsibility for her own welfare and stop wallowing.

I had a go at her last night, reminded her of all the support she is getting from everyone here, how we would all do anything for her if we felt it would help her reach happiness, but that she could not go on insulting everyone and abusing their feelings. I said I did not want to hear about it any more, that she should take a good look at herself and her attitude. I said it would do her good to count her blessings and she said, 'what blessings?', that is the sort of thing we get every time. She did not come down for dinner and I did not go up and try to persuade her.

This morning I tried to talk to her again and mentioned one of her friends who is polite and kind to her younger sister, but she just stormed off to school, so rudely.

Was I too hard on her? Or is it time to get tough? It all feels so risky, I am afraid she will try suicide again, or run away.

Help!!

No, I haven't tried it! As I said, my eldest is only 10 so I'm probably talking out of my backside. It was just a thought. The behaviour of teenagers is so similar to that of toddlers that I thought a similar strategy might work. You'd have to make it much more sophisticated though. How many mums of toddlers have you heard saying they've got a little "Kevin" already??

Offering to buy something on a shopping trip might take the "boring " element away? Not sure. Maybe the answer is to just be there if she wants you, but to ignore all the bad behaviour. Not get upset, but explain how you feel calmly and leave it at that.

Of course she is going to complain about your dh because she knows that is likely to be a fairly powerful weapon. She'll complain about and to him because she can, same as children of divorced parents using the absent parent as a lever, because they can.

I'm sure that, when she comes out the other side of this phase, her relationship with your dh will be much stronger because he has stood by her despite everything.

Janstar, haven't time to read the whole thread thoroughly but it sounds like you are having a really tough time.The fact that you are asking for advice about how to deal with the situation says to me that you really care about your DD and want the best for your family. You mentioned that you had an "abnormal" childhood and also that you needed to go to court to protect your girls from their father so it seems there are some really hard issues for you all. I worked in this area in Oz and we would see families in similar situations to this. The approach we would take is a full assessment of the family talking to each member including you, DD, DH and all the other sibs because as you say the problem is for everyone. Depending on the situation and info we got we would usually do family therapy (narrative therapy where you look at the problem as not your DD but the behaviour) and possibly suggest individual therapy for you, DD etc. This would be available through the public health system (like NHS). I see that your DD had individual counselling and that she didn't want to go. It might just be an idea to look into what is available for the family. Often when you are all sitting down and talking, things come up that would never do so in individual counselling. Sorry I have no actual advice. Good luck and just know that there are soo many families who have similar problems.

Thank you all and thank you for your suggestion Ouisie. I completely agree with you, I am a firm believer in counselling but I know she wouldn't go, she fought against the last course of counselling all the way and I have to say that I do not believe she would respond to any more.

But thinking about your point has made me see that she is desperately trying to be 'normal' and perhaps that is why she is pushing me so hard, because she needs to find a place that's comfortable for her and her rummaging for it is rippling through the whole family. Anyone think I might have identified something there? I feel like I'm crossing an unknown continent without a map!

Hello again Janstar, this is American Angle.

A few more thoughts.

As far as counseling goes, I admit that maybe a one on one is useless to a 14 yr old. This is because she knows the counselor doesn't give a damn about her and so there is no bonding, so why should she talk? I felt the same way at 14... so what if she wants to forget, nasty issues that she may be trying to hide may turn her into an even more difficult teenager later (drugs etc.) Sticking her in a group-peer session is completely
different because she'll bond & confide in kids her own age. After 3 sessions if she doesn't ask you to return, well then no harm done right?

Second - from your latest email, it seems to me that your daughter has recently walked all over you. At 14 it seems that she has some image to protect with her current friends and thus she cares more about protecting that than anything else in life. I don't think you should have let her go out with her friends. Maybe grounding her all week is harsh but you could take it one day at a time. ie. what you want her to do is very subjective isn't it. Write down on paper what you want her to do each day of the week and exactly what you expect and give her a pass or fail and write down how she should improve. This is more objective, more like the 'business world' and is goal oriented. Also you might see results. Then you can reward her ie. she can go out with her friends on x day if she meets that criteria as well etc.

I'm a bit shocked to see a lot of comments in this forum about how other peoples kids are on drugs, take too much alcohol, just go off without permission etc. There is a huge cultural difference, and none of that would be tolerated in the least where I'm from. In fact, there are programs to keep kids in line - the parents take them down to the police station (ie. for too much drinking etc) and get a policeman to have a word with the kid, showing them what Jail is like etc. Sometimes it is harsh but it works. I'm not sure that such a program exists in England.

Finally, about your daughter being clean.

1. If it is her room, that is her space and if she
   wants to keep it messy, as long as the door
   remains closed why should you care?

2. Helping out - an eye for an eye..... just keep
   records.

Good luck.

American Angle

One more thing...

• I think family counseling is the wrong way to
  go. Your daughter has personal issues and to
  have to discuss these in front of other siblings
  and her parents is nothing short of humiliating.
  Also you don't want a situation where a
  therapist becomes a referee - you'll lose even
  more respect. Finally, your childhood does not
  need to be brought out in front of everyone.
  The above suggestion is from experience.

• Also, your daughter doesn't want to spend time
  with you probabally because it is uncool at this
  point in her social life. Still, it is up to
  you to enforce a family day and mother-daughter time each week. She may shout and complain or
  cry and say you are ruining her life - too bad.
  Family comes FIRST. This is what kids need to
  learn. She'll thank you when she is older...

• Finally, what IS normal? Normal is only in the
  eyes of her friends, not the rest of the world.
  Maybe not even you - (or, MAYBE YOU depends!!!)
  It is important to figure out what her friends
  think is NORMAL because this will show what
  values they have and whether or not you really
  want your daughter hanging out with kids whose
  values may revolve around Alcohol,Drugs,Sex etc.
  vs. achieving great things, being intelligent
  etc.

Good luck again.

Thank you, AmericanAngle. As before, you seem very insightful about this. I haven't seen your name anywhere else on mumsnet, I'm intrigued to know you a little but if you have come out of lurking just to help me then I am very grateful.

Luckily I don't believe she or any of her friends are interested in drugs at all, they are very anti in fact. But I do realise this can change in a heartbeat and I am always watching. Another good thing is that we are friends with the parents of the girl she spends most time with and know they are a good family.

I think to get her into a group session I would have to drag her there bodily, she would simply refuse to go. She is completely fed up with the whole therapy scene and wants to forget it and be normal. I wonder if there is some way I could 'trick' her into confiding with a group of peers or maybe this is what she is doing every day with her friends anyway.

You are totally right about her thinking the counsellor didn't care about her, that is exactly what she kept saying.

What you say about my expectations of her being subjective is quite apt too, I'm a very emotional person, and I go by feel a lot of the time so I can see what you mean about this. It's quite akin to the star chart idea Freckle mentioned.

I worry all the time that I am being too hard on her, I don't have a guage in my head like most people because of my own childhood. It helps me when I ask on MN and people tell me I am doing at least some things right. I have difficulty distinguishing between being firm enough and being harsh with her, my inclination is always to be too soft as I don't want to hurt her.

Janstar, poor you, I do think your dd just has a severe attack of teenageryness and will be mortified in a few years to look back at her awful self? Have you thought of Brat Camp (only joking, really). I do think that if her allowance is for certain things, then she shouldn't get it if she doesn't do them. And you don't HAVE to ferry her about everywhere. There are buses and trains and legs available, presumably? I really don't think you should make yourself her slave, but at the same time I do think it is normal that she doesn't want to be your friend atm. Her friends are more important to her and I think that's natural and in some ways an essential part of her development. I do think also that getting so emotional and using dramatic phrases such as 'you never' and 'you always' tend to backfire as they make a person feel so totally attacked there is no room for negotiation. I think the usual advice to keep criticisms very specific might be helpful and yes, tell her exactly what you want and never make a threat you don't follow through. Ie if you mean 'one minute late' say so, but if you don't, don't. And don't be so hard on yourself. I am sure it is a phase and will pass.
Off topic a bit, AmericanAngle, I don't see people on Mumsnet talking about how their kids are all on drugs and drink too much etc...are you sure you mean us? I mean, yes, certainly all the mums are degenerates but none of the other stuff rings true AmericanAngle.

Janstar,

Sorry you're going thru this now, it never seems to end does it, and you must feel you deserve a let-up now and then.

I think most of this is pretty normal teenage girl stuff, but with a bit extra thrown in because you have (rightly) made extra allowances for her behaviour in the past, so she thinks (probably subconciously) she can get away with more.

I'm with the teenage version of the starchart personally.I'd give her a list of her weekly chores, with a allowance amount next to them (a tariff if you like). If she does the job she gets the money, otherwise she doesn't. I wouldn't then get into nagging if she doesn't do it, that just stresses you out, and you probably still have to do the job in the end anyway.

If she wants a lift etc, I would expect other things too, like sitting in (politely) during a family meal, behaving like a 'human' now and then. Start by linking lifts with actual events, and gradually ease towards general good behaviour. Don't expect her to join in all the time tho'.

As someone else said, if she wants her room to be a pigsty, then it's her room. As long as it's not a public health hazard, leave it be.

I'd guess that she'll be about 16 before she starts to come out of this. We're seeing an improvement with my step dd (coincidentally just after I'd given her a piece of my mind, after pussy-footing around for some months).

Anyway Chin-Up, Look forward to a quiet time while dd persues her social life over Easter (if she earns the right to go out).

It suddenly came to me that I have done an "older" version of the starchart with my 10yo. It revolved around pocket money. At no time in life do you get given money for doing b*gger all, so why start giving him the impression that, just because he is a child, he should get given money. So, we started off with 50p as a base mark. We then allocated money for certain chores, e.g. for keeping his room tidy all week, he'd get an extra 30p, for doing his homework without needing to be nagged, he'd get an extra 20p, etc. If he did all his chores, it could add up to quite a bit. He'd get his 50p, but nothing more unless he "earned" it.

So perhaps you need to put a monetary value on the chores you expect your dd to do. That way it is her choice if she does them, but, if she doesn't, she could be seriously out of pocket. Good training for adulthood, where we all have to earn a living.

Hi Janstar, much sympathy, I posted earlier about ds1 (things were quite positive at that point) but he reverted to type a bit later so was just a temp. improvement

Teenagers are selfish, they do hate their parents, their world revolves around their mates and more often than not they really do want a confrontation. At the moment I've 'backed off' a bit and am picking my battles rather than everything being a slanging match. Also I've started to put things more in black and white, so he knows the consequences. No chores, no credit on his phone, that sort of thing but also he's getting a bit more space. Quite often when I go in his room he'll say 'Go away' no reasons, just that, and so rude with it and previously it would have ended with us yelling at each other, now I just leave and more often than not he'll come back a while later and ask what I wanted, nice as pie. He probably thinks he's had a few victories but the important things like curfews and schoolwork I've not budged on. It has made life a bit calmer so maybe its worth a go? I have to say I've a blister on my tongue cos I've bitten it so much

Went through same with ds1 about 4 years ago. DS1 now 18 and wants to change his name to DH's! Things do improve. I told my ds's 1&2 that one day they would be in the big wide world, but DH would still be there with me. Ds2 still hates him 80% of the time, but it's all down to jealousy

janstar, i haven't read the replies to your post about the row but i just want to say that, traumatic though it is, her behaviour is entirely normal for a 14 year old girl. I know not all teenagers behave like that, but most do to some extent. Please read the book I mentioned further down for reassurance that this behaviour is to be expected, and that it doesn't mean you are doing things wrong or failing her in any way - quite the reverse.

XXXXX

Janstar, reiterating what others have said about how 'normal' it is to be absolutely unbearable at this age, as I was. Looking back though I know that I was quite motivated by resenting the breakup of my parents and the fact that they were more interested in their new partners and their new children then they were in me - or so I perceived it at the time. And definitely my hormones were raging.

I hated my step mum, not because she was a bad person, or wasn't nice and supportive to me - because she was - but simply because my Dad loved her so much and it was so obvious. Going back a bit to your original post, I just thought maybe the perfectness of your relationship with your DH might be what makes her dislike him. Maybe if you could disclose some less than perfect traits of his or let her see a bit of your relationship that isn't perfect than she might start to thaw.

My Mum came in for it quite a bit from me to and the way that she handled it was to pretty much let me do whatever I wanted. Naturally what I wanted to do was all the stuff a teenager shouldn't be doing - hence I made a lot of mistakes and now look back and wish that she had not been so permissive - although I know that she probably just worried that if she said 'no' too often that I would just rebel again and be a nightmare. So, as others have said - stay tough, it means you care.

I also support the idea that counselling would have meant nothing to me at the time, but I do wish my parents had invested more time in trying to discover how I felt - although I am not sure I could have even identified what was going on inside me at the time.

Good Luck.

Dear Janstar, I haven't been on Mumsnet for a long time and I just saw this thread. I sympathize with you. I am so glad that you have found so much support here and I think that everyone has given you wonderful insight and advice. I too feel that I am "handicapped" in some ways in that I grew up in such disfunction, that I also don't know how to coach or counsel my children in more positive ways. I so want to please my daughter that I have gone competely overboard, etc. and I believe I have spoiled her. That will be discussion for another thread.

From everything I have read and all of the different threads I have been with you on in the past, I think you are a wonderful Mum and are deeply caring. I totally understand you not wanting to make the same mistakes with your daughter as you feel were done to you by your own Mum. It is so difficult to strike a balance and really see what SHE needs right now. You only want to please her and show her that she is loved no matter what. I guess the trick is to do that without feeling compelled to do it. Having the ablity to step back without the emotion and say "no", I need you to do this or that or speak to me in a respectful way, etc. (I realize that is grossly oversimplified, but you know what I mean). I never even believed my mother HAD feelings. I lost my mom when I was 33--there are so many times I just want to speak with her too. I hope things are better for you today and that you will be able to enjoy the holiday. Sending you Much Love (and strength)

I have no experience of parenting a teenager (have a threenager though...) but from what I remember of my own teenage years I'd say your dd seems pretty normal... Anyway what I wanted to say is that there was an article in the Independent on Sunday magazine about mother-teenage daughter relationships. I tried to find it on the Independent's website to post a link but it doesn't seem to be there. The article mentions a new book on the subject, called "You don't really know me", by Terri Apter, published by WW Norton Ltd. The article says:
"mothers and teenage daughters fight more than any other child-parent pair in fact, according to Apter, they have a spat on average every two and a half days, and it lasts for 15 minutes. The book explains that these fights are not only normal but an essential battleground for teenage girls to safely display powerful feelings of both love and resentment - a training ground for future conflict. It tells me that rather than representing a bid for freedom, the rows are a sign of commitment - a way of renegotiating one of the closest and long-enduring, as well as fiery, of human relationships, that of mother and daughter". I hope this helps somehow.

Lots of (((((hugs)))))

janstar,What your daughter is behaving like sounds very familiar,I was a total bitch at that age,my mum always said she' hoped I would have a daughter one day to get so she could watch and laugh!

well my dd is now 12 and just starting with the attitude thing.It is really hurtful to be shunned, when she was and still is at times a lovely girl who loved spending time with me.Now I am a total embarassment!

I think you're doing a great job.I think our daughters need to know how their remarks etc.make us feel as people.Some of your comments would probably really hit home with her,tell her your fears and worries.They need to learn to empathise it's part of growing up.
good luck

I am bowled over to log on this morning and see so many posts on this thread. Thank you. I really don't know where else a person could tap into so much wisdom and experience other than mumsnet.

Sunchowder, it is so lovely to hear from you, I have missed you. Sobernow, of course I understand your point, and it is something I do have to ask myself at times. But then we are all shaped by our own experiences, what can you do? You and I could talk and talk about our mothers, I'm sure.

Mammya, your post made me feel so emotional, sometimes I think dd1 and I are chalk and cheese, but she gets to me in a way no one else can, and I know the bond is there. I get so frightened that she will walk away from all that we have been through together, like in the Spike Milligan poem. I will find and post it in a minute.

Thank you so much everyone who has reassured me about the normality of her behaviour, mentioning their own teenage years or that of their grown up children. You can't know how valuable and reassuring this is to someone who had an abnormal childhood.

DD1 has been fine since our argument yesterday. She came home a few minutes early and was polite and pleasant for the rest of the day. Sometimes I am bewildered by it all. Sometimes I think she is pushing for boundaries which always takes me by surprise because I think of her as so grown-up.

This poem says it all about my fear of losing her:

Growing Up II by Spike Milligan

Is that all there is? Goodbye!
After a million hellos
After all those bird-blessed good mornings,
After the bubbling bathtime laughter,
After so many soul-searching Santa Claus,
After a million wild walks on the moors,
After the swing-swung laughing summers,
After the tear-drenched kiss-better bumped head,
After the new wear-them-in-bed red shoes,
After a tumult of timeless teddy bears,
After a delirium of dolls in prams,
After a rainbow of ice-creams,
After daddy I love you all the world -
Goodbye?

no helpful advice I'm afraid janstar, but hugs > x

And maybe those of us whose children have yet to reach this trying age should print out this thread and save it for when we do! Could save us hours of agonising over whether we're doing it right or whether our children are abnormally difficult.

Beautiful Poem Janstar, have missed you too.

Have just read most of this thread and i sympathise completely. With one just ex teen and two current ones i've had some experience and your d sounds like the middle one was before she moved out last year (and got pregnant see the grandma thread)

Eventually it will get better if you do one thing.

I think the most important thing you have is that you as the mum have to never give up Unfortunately this is also the hardest but some where under that hard shell they do know you care and it's that you have to try and keep and cherish.

Have a happy easter!

OMG-I cried. That poem is so real. I have read all the posts, Janstar and have a 14 year old son. I asked him to read one of the posts and his words were"harsh, man,". I immediately leapt to YOUR defence and asked him why. He then explained that your DD was well out of order, ("man" and he was sticking up for parents. Looked well confused and went up to his "....hole", probably feeling even more confused than I did!! He has a dad and a stepdad too, with three half-siblings, so we are on a similar wavelength. Stick to your guns, your DD will respect you more. I have felt like an absolute bitch mother from hell when I have grounded my DS1, and have "accidently" overheard him slagging me off to his friends but have also been thanked (very fast and quietly) for giving various people lifts, here there and everywhere!! Got back from holiday today, and after 45 mins phone started ringing. At one point I answered as if an answering service and was given such a look of scorn,that I fel quite ashamed of myself, until I realised that it was my BLOODY PHONE and I could say what I liked! Set rules, be prepared to be the horrible mum and stick to them. Your DD sounds as if she gets quite any easy ride (as does my DS1, becuase I daren't go too far in the requesting jobs stage) but money does not grow on trees, life is tough and she needs to know it, NOW. Just imagine (and this is only just imagine) if anything happened to the family and she was stuck on her own. Imagine how she would get on in a Social Services Childrens Home!! Tracy Beaker it would not be. She would grow up hard, fast and tough, very quickly. They throw kids out as 16 with a giro and no advice. Who would clean (sorry, excavate) her room? etc etc etc.. IT'S NOT YOU..IT'S HER AND WHATEVER SHE HAS HAD TO DEAL WITH IN LIFE, SHE IS WITH YOU NOW, NOT STUCK IN SOME GROTTY PLACE ON HER OWN AND SHE HAS TO GROW UP AND OUT OF BEING A TEENAGER. ) American Angle, most kids here would really, honestly laugh at our policemen here. Even my 5 year old is not impressed and laughs at me when I have, in the past, suggested fetching a policeman to deal with "naughty" behaviour.