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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Please, anyone who can advise me about my daughter?

151 replies

Janstar · 04/03/2004 09:23

It's my dd1 again, some of you may remember the thread about her suicide attempt.

She has continued with the counselling, but we do not get far. She treats it all like an infantile game and it is only by accident she sometimes confides.

At home, she seems very much happier in herself, is doing lots of things with her friends, and has overcome a few problems she had with getting caught in the cross-fire of their arguments. At times she seems her old cheerful self.

But most of the time she is sullen and rude. I thought perhaps it was just normal behaviour for a 14 1/2 year old. But it is getting out of hand. She particularly upsets dh and me by constantly saying that she doesn't like dh. He is a wonderful family man who has been in our lives for 6 years now, he works hard to provide for the childrens' every need and did not bat an eyelid a few months ago when every penny of our savings went on the court case to protect the girls from their father. When his parents disowned me and the girls because of their false beliefs about me he dropped them from his life without hesitating, to support us.

The two of them have always had communication problems, dh's response is to read books about how to talk to teenagers in his very limited spare time, to bite his tongue a lot and work very hard at trying to find common ground with her. Her response is to pick fault with every little thing he says and does.

Last night she complained about him again, saying she just didn't like him and there was nothing that could be done about it, she made me cry this time. She had also made dd2 cry by telling her that she did not love her and wishes ds (3) had never been born.

The words 'thank you' and 'sorry' do not exist in her vocabulary although I have brought up my children to be polite. If I tackle her on any of these points she tells me that she doesn't care about any of it and doesn't care if we give up on her.

I understand she is pushing us but she is hurting us all and bringing the whole family down. I felt it was time to get a bit tougher with her. I have been very soft because I was afraid she would attempt suicide again. But I feel this is not helping her, she has become very selfish and uncaring about other peoples' feelings. At her age she is almost an adult and needs to take some responsibility for her own welfare and stop wallowing.

I had a go at her last night, reminded her of all the support she is getting from everyone here, how we would all do anything for her if we felt it would help her reach happiness, but that she could not go on insulting everyone and abusing their feelings. I said I did not want to hear about it any more, that she should take a good look at herself and her attitude. I said it would do her good to count her blessings and she said, 'what blessings?', that is the sort of thing we get every time. She did not come down for dinner and I did not go up and try to persuade her.

This morning I tried to talk to her again and mentioned one of her friends who is polite and kind to her younger sister, but she just stormed off to school, so rudely.

Was I too hard on her? Or is it time to get tough? It all feels so risky, I am afraid she will try suicide again, or run away.

Help!!

OP posts:
Janstar · 19/04/2004 14:07

Jollymum, dd2 says that dd1 reckons she is going to move out when 16 and live in a flat with her friends. She is also planning to stay on in 6th form. DD2 asked what she would do about meals and she said, 'get takeaway'.

I don't think the idea of how this would all be paid for has even occurred to her .

Is it any wonder we don't understand their thought processes sometimes? At the moment I'd gladly help her pack

OP posts:
marthamoo · 19/04/2004 14:20

Janstar, oh that poem.....

Janh · 19/04/2004 14:59

Janstar, how did she get on over the weekend with your friends? I've been wondering...

Janstar · 19/04/2004 15:05

Hi Jan. She slept at a friend's house both nights. So she wasn't here all that much. But she made sure to be back when we came home, which was nice.

OP posts:
Janh · 19/04/2004 15:22

She was glad to see you, then, Jan? That's nice!

I gather you had a lovely weekend - your description of Brum makes it sound like Venice or Amsterdam (nearly!)

scoobysnax · 19/04/2004 15:38

Janstar, hi there - the Milligan poem brought tears to my eyes...

I think most teenagers/young adults are a crazy mix of being v grown up in ways and then totally childish in other ways eg my 22 year old cousin asked me if I thought he should take a jacket out with him in the evening??? He has lived alone and even lived and worked abroad for years!!!

AmericanAngle · 25/04/2004 07:05

Janstar,

I agree with Easy, Aloha & Freckled Mom... there is no reason to have arguments if you create a written program of actions, consequences & rewards and STICK TO IT NO MATTER WHAT & GIVING NO SECOND CHANCES. Your daughter definitly pushes boundries and your 'buttons' to get away with things she knows she shouldn't.

I found mumsnet by accident. I am not yet a mum although aged 33 and have told myself for years that a) I don't want to go through what I put my parents through and b) that when one has a cute baby they really have to think of it as having a teenager... I look at peoples problems on mumsnet to decide if and how I could handle them, well before I have any kids. Call it 'parental training'!

Anyway, I was suicidal at 14 - and almost died (was very close) via huge overdose of nyquil (alcohol & drugs = kills your liver & you). Luckilly the housecleaner found me in a closet to make the story short & the doctors got to me in time. As a kid, I was abused emotionally & physically (not sexually) and hated my dad. As an adult, (28!) my husband to be made me to realize that it was my mother who was the instigator thoughout my life and who showed me how she used her emotionality to extract sensitive info from me which she would later against me when she got angry, killing my trust in anyone. I was a really good kid - never did drugs, alcohol etc., but was extremely independant, didn't like parents telling me to 'act like the other kids' who cared only about dress etc. wheras I was a bit eccentric in interests (not outward appearance). Oh, also I resentd my mother for not having a professional and social life of her own and just being a 'stay at home mom' but this is because my father devalued her.

I also victimized by other kids because of weight as well as at home so I was lonely and felt no one cared. Certainly the therapist didn't, I was forced to go and hated my parents for it and subsequently thought little of the whole profession (ie. canned programatic responses etc.) until recently. Looking back now I see that I needed someone to care, and needed to belong. Group therapy would have shown me that people cared and had I been encouraged to go ie. Even my best friend at age 14 couldn't handle the difficult life I had and she was therefore emotionally unavailable to me. If your daughters friends are acting as a support system for your daughter then she obviously does not need group therapy.. but only if..

Anyway, enough about me. Sorry to chat on about it so much. I moved to England 2 years ago and am fascinated about the difference in parenting between the USA and UK, and am of course looking for inspiration so that one day I can get rid of the fear of teenagers and their abuse and hold my own as a mother.

AmericanAngle · 25/04/2004 07:24

Janstar:

PS. I should say I understand your fear about your daughter self harming again especially if she hasn't convinced you otherwise. Perhaps you need that convincing to be a stricter but loving parent.

As a victim, the only way I got over it was to defy the my father by defending myself with a knife the next time he tried to hit me. I took on a 'I will survive' mentality, prayed for my college years to come soon so I could GET OUT, and the revenge I promised myself and told my dad as a teenager was that he will NEVER get to see his grandkids (should I have any) because I knew he was violent. I am 33 and intend to keep this promise.

Sorry to go on about me but I just wanted to say that somehow I see you and feel for your daughter and want to help you to get the strength to deal with her now because when she's 16 or 17 her desire to push the boundries will not stop with you and she may have lost total respect and trust that you will follow through. I didn't respect my parents and still don't. But of course, respect is a 2 way street.

American Angle

AmericanAngle · 25/04/2004 07:42

Jollymum, not to be rude, but your police ARE a joke, from several personal experiences. Is it that they perpetuate a culture of non-confrontation? Why is it that kids all pass down the idea that they can get away with anything until the age of 16 without consequence? Please make me understand?

Let me tell you how it is over the pond...

  1. Never look directly at a polieceman or he may just a)write you a ticket b) handcuff you and do a search c)write you up for policeman disrespect/abuse

2)If you get a traffic ticket and go to fight it, if the polieman had noted that you were disrespectful or cursed him at the time he wrote it up, the judge will enforce the highest penalty available to the law

3)Two men in a fist-fight= the first person who swung is the loser and a charge for assault/battery can be written up on the person who threw the first punch and a trial actually occur. This happened to my brother. People live in fear of getting a police record. All employers ask this question on their application and can fire you for lying or if you had a record even if it was a minor offense.

4)Grafitti- those kids are going to juvie (JV!) or at least are guaranteed a community service sentence and a public shaming

5)Person calls police for minor offense not even a crime, police arrive WITHIN 5 minutes, EVERY TIME and always write a report! They DO follow up!

6)Domestic violence - police will come and take hubby or abusive party away from home for the night and possibly stick them in jail for the evening.

you get the picture. Kids are afraid of police. Parents of kids who commit an offense can be sued by other parents even if the kids can't be held responsible as an adult...

Yes there is crime, but I didn't live in an inner-city, I lived in a nice suburb of NYC...

Batters · 25/04/2004 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fuzzywuzzy · 25/04/2004 12:15

Janstar, I've not got a teen on my hands yet (praying she'll stay cute and fluffy for a long time to come).
I had a really terrible relationship with my mother and to be honest it's still strained. Anyways, I think going by personal experience that she might actually benefit from getting her own source of income, it's how I slowly gained the independance which I craved and funnily it was also a way I gained confidence in myself. I only had a Saturday job, but it actually helped me put myself through uni which wasn't why I took it to begin with. But maybe if your dd takes up a small weekend job it might help, dunno I just remembered how trapped I felt when I was so young and so dependant on parents....
AA the police aren't that bad, I'm sure a lot of them would love to be allowed to do as their american counterparts but their hands are tied till the offender hits 16. As one youth pointed out to my dp one evening 'Go on fight me, the police cant do nuffink I'm under 16'.....!!!!

grumpyzebra · 25/04/2004 22:00

I strongly suspect that the British police are the very best in the world.
-Says an American whose father is a judge, and whose brothers have criminal records (so I certainly know how California police are perceived from many sides of the law!).

luckymum · 25/04/2004 22:15

British police - Its just a shame there aren't enough of them.

Janstar - hope things are improving with dd1.

suedonim · 25/04/2004 23:36

Is your father a judge in CA, GZ? DS1's FIL is also a judge - wonder if they know each other!?

SueW · 25/04/2004 23:57

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

Janstar · 26/04/2004 11:13

Wow, what a big conversation went on when I wasn't here! Thank you all for taking an interest. And thanks, American Angle for talking about your own teenage experiences, as this sort of thing is very helpful.

I have had more drama with dd1 over the weekend. We went out for the evening leaving her to babysit. We gave her permission to have two of her girlfriends here for the night.

We arrived back at 11.30 to find a 16 year old boy standing smoking outside our front door. He evidently realised we were none too impressed and made a swift exit. DD2 told us that two boys had been here and had been inside the house with the girls.

DD1 said she thought we wouldn't mind! Yet she asked permission earlier for her girlfriends to be here. We countered that far from thinking we wouldn't mind, we thought she knew we would say no, and that is why she didn't ask.

She said, why, what do you think I'm going to do, start having sex with them? I said no, but these things can happen bit by bit if there are no precendents set where we meet these boys and get to know them before we decide whether to allow them in our house while we are out. Dh said he knew boys as he used to be one and he wouldn't trust them for sure!

Anyway, sorry for going on...the outcome is that we have grounded dd for 1 month and warned her that we won't hesitate to reinstate our old babysitter and take the money for her wages out of dd's allowance if she lets us down ever again.

I feel we have been very harsh but I realise we had to be since dd has been taking the mickey for some time.

Did we do the right thing?

OP posts:
AmericanAngle · 26/04/2004 15:26

Janstar, you did the right thing 100% now you just have to stick to it!

RE: BritPolice. I should have changed the message a bit and stated that the laws pertaining to ppl age 16 and under are too lax and therefore make fighting such crime ineffective here and allows naughty kids to adopt destructive behavior early on. As for the California resident who'se father is a judge - I didn't live inside a city in the USA. At the same time, I live in a similar area outside of London. There is still a huge difference in response time, which may be down to coordination in that my 'village' here does not have its own officer(s).

AmericanAngle

fuzzywuzzy · 26/04/2004 15:37

Agree with AA Janstar your actions don't appear to be overly harsh fits her actions IMHO.
BTW AA perhaps it is mainly to do with your village, the one time I had to ring the police at some ridiculously early hour in the morning I got three squad cars in under three minutes from as many routes, was very impressed (after I'd gotten over my hysteria of the incident).

Janstar · 06/05/2004 11:37

Right, now I could do with some opinions on the latest developments please!

DD1 has Duke of Edinburgh award training this weekend, she has to camp overnight and do a long hike. She has sprung it on me at the last minute that she had a whole lot of things to buy (sleeping bag, backpack, waterproofs etc) - up till now she was sure she could borrow all these things. So I had to rush out to the shops with her yesterday and spend over £100 on all this stuff. She dropped her sullenness for a change and was perfectly amenable from the time she told me she needed this stuff till the time it was all bought. As we left the last shop after buying the last item she reverted to her grumpy, rude self. All the people who have told me she can't help the way she is...all the times I have sympathised with her as she is a confused teen. But this really felt like she did know exactly what she was doing and had just taken me for a right mug.

As you can imagine I was decidedly unimpressed and told her that the next time she was on her own.

She has another school trip to Belgium soon and needs an E111. Now I am certain that I got it for her already and gave it to her and that she has lost it. It is a right pain to get since my local post office is staffed by morons, and I have to drive miles to another post office to get this thing endorsed. I have asked her to look in her room (which looks like a bomb site) and she just fobs me off.

So I did something I had never done before and went upstairs just now and started looking in her room myself. Everywhere was heaving, under the cupboards, down the back of the drawers, etc, which I thought were likely places it might be languishing. I quickly realised that the room was even worse than it looked on the surface and thought, well maybe later tonight I will get some bin bags and make her clear it out with me. Just then I found two cans of beer hidden behind a cupboard. She has evidently stolen this from us.

I am now thinking I will wait till she has gone on Saturday and go into her room on my own and clear it out. She needs a big wake-up call. I always said to myself I would respect her privacy and never poke around her things, but her untidiness is creating needless work for me, her room is a health hazard and to top it all she is stealing from me. (There were other items too, toiletries and stuff).

Should I take this drastic step?

OP posts:
Janstar · 06/05/2004 12:38

bump

OP posts:
Janh · 06/05/2004 12:43

Janstar, she sounds so much like my dd2! She can be exactly the same - sweetness and light on eg a shopping trip where she gets what she wants and then snarling at a comment she doesn't like in the car on the way home. And the "wrong" comment at home sets her off on a screeching fit where you can't get a word in so the only thing to do is ignore her (she hates it).

FWIW I have always been pretty firm with her so it doesn't sound as if being firm/soft necessarily makes any difference to how they behave, if they're that way anyway. However I think when you are genuinely angry with her you are entitled to tell her so.

She will be mad about you looking in her room but you had a good reason for looking - not "snooping", although she will probably accuse you of that. I think having it out with her could be quite cathartic - does she rant or shut up when she's mad? If she rants you could let her do it without responding until she's wound down - walk away and close the door if she keeps trying to get a response out of you. Then, when she's ready to discuss it like a reasonable person, you can discuss 3 options for dealing with her room -

  1. she does it herself but you inspect afterwards and she keeps doing it until you are satisfied
  2. the two of you do it together
  3. you do it while she's away

but it has to be done NOW if she's going to do it.

The "stealing" is another issue - she probably doesn't look on it as stealing - just making sure she has stuff she thinks she needs. How have you organised things like toiletries in the past? (The beer is different, presumably you wouldn't willingly hand that over so she has to snaffle it but I think that's fairly normal at 14. Separate issue!)

HTH. I agree that you do need to have it out with her. The suicide attempt can't be allowed to stop you dealing with her as a normal stroppy teen for the next 4-5-6 years - I know how anxious it makes you but she is using it. She certainly doesn't sound suicidal!

SoupDragon · 06/05/2004 12:45

Can you give her the choice of (1) clearing it out herself tonight, (2) clearing it out with you tomorrow or (3) you will do it when she is away?

This doesn't solve the problem of the stealing. It does, howver, give her fair warning of what you are going to do and sidesteps the "invasion of privacy" thing.

SoupDragon · 06/05/2004 12:45

Snap, Janh

Janh · 06/05/2004 12:48
Smile
Soapbox · 06/05/2004 12:48

As a teenager my friends parents had a novel way of ensuring her room was kept tidy.

If her room was judged to be untidy... wait for this... she didn't get fed!!!!!

She was still made to sit at the dinner table for each meal but was not allowed to eat any food. Nor was she given lunch money!

Totally bizarre but highly effective (she had a Satruday job and used to have to spend her own money on food or tidy up her room).

The longest I ever recall her holding out for was a grand total of 3 days!

Not sure I'd recommend it though - would probably have SS on your doorstep these days for doing that kind of thing!

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