DD and family are asking me not to use mumsnet

[Minifingers]

My 13 year old DD has stalked me across mumsnet - logging on to my settings and searching my history to see what I've written about her. I've tried to cover my tracks by clearing my history and occasionally name changing, but she's seen quite a lot of what I've written. She is furious that I'm talking about her on an internet board and has asked me to stop. I have explained that I've had fantastic advice and support from this board which at times has been sanity-saving for me, and that it's all anonymous. No matter. She doesn't want me to talk about her here, or to phone parent line and discuss our problems there either.

She has support in this from my mother (who is 78, has never used the internet and doesn't understand how boards like this work) and from DH who I suspect feels pretty contemptuous about mn generally. I've not had one family member support me in seeing this board as useful support and advice.

Should add - I have been bought to the edge of despair by dd's behaviour over the last few years. I feel my life is very stressful - I have an autistic child as well as dd and there are times I have felt like I'm hanging on by my fingertips. The thought of not being able to get support or 'talk' to people outside of the family about what we are going through is very upsetting.

But is it wrong of me to carry on using this board if I know DD is accessing it, and if there's no way I can stop her from seeing my posts?

It's becoming a real issue, and dd has raised it with the psychiatrist she is seeing at CAMHS. She says that they have told her that it's wrong for me to write about my family on mumsnet. I doubt they've actually said this, but he may have acknowledged her feeling her privacy has been violated.

Wonder what you think?

Brilliant post, cory. :)

himalayan, noone with experience of this kind of thing would think they were standing up for the child if they were not also supporting the mother

it doesn't work that way: it can't work that way

if the OP is told to stop posting, she cannot profit from any good advice that may be going

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

Indeed. :(

himalayan, you keep hinting that the problem is the mother's mental health issues but you don't explain what you actually mean

do you think she is lying about her dd's aggression? or that she is imagining it? or that it is somehow justified because the mother has too many expectations on her?

it is very difficult to understand your posts if you will not explain exactly what you mean

you also don't explain what background or experience you are coming from

the rest of us have made it clear where we are coming from: as loving parents of teens with difficulties, as parents with experience of MH provision and how it works, as parents who realise that provision can only be useful if it works for and with the whole family

please make yourself clear

himalayan, you asked me up-thread if I had ever considered that I might be wrong; and when I answered "Of course", I refrained from asking you the same question, because it seemed a bit rude. But we've gone beyond pretty manners... Now you quote "There's none so blind as those who will not see" and I'd point out that what you accuse others of is exactly what you are doing yourself.

Those of us who have coped with difficult teens and lived to tell the tale will recognise your tactics. Because your responses are exactly a teenager's: you start from the position that nothing can ever be a teenager's own fault (or yours), that children (and you) are always innocent. You have been rude and insulting and deliberately provoking, and by and large people have managed to ignore you. But when someone (I can't remember who) exasperatedly snapped "I'd like to slap you round the face with a wet kipper" you act the childish victim and cry that you've been "threatened with violence".

I don't know whether you have children at all (if you have said, I have missed it) - but if you do, you need to begin to identify with, and learn from, some of the wise women who hang out here on MN. If you continue to identify with the kids, you will be well and truly f*cked when your own reach their teenage years.

But for now, I am going to give you one of my ...

Um. Is it possible that Himalayan is actually the OP's DD? I note Himalayan's absolute refusal to answer any of the questions put to her by cory and flow4.

Flow4 well said.

MadamecastafioreMon 03-Jun-13 16:18:23

"Himalayan I want to punch you on the head."

TheRealFellatioMon 03-Jun-13 16:32:35

Himalayan I want to punch you on the head.

Hahahhahahhaaaa. To be fair Himalayan you are asking for it.

It is a real threat of physical violence, from two people, and it is dishonest to distort the threat by denying the violent intent of it.

Nothing whatsoever to do with wet kippers - where on earth did you get that from, I wonder?

I think we say that what Himalayan is doing goading nowadays, don't we?

Do you mind answering the question, himalayan?

do you think she is lying about her dd's aggression? or that she is imagining it? or that it is somehow justified because the mother has too many expectations on her?

And on what experience are you drawing when you try to tell the rest of us about mental health provision in the UK?

I don't want to punch your head. I just want you to answer the question and tell us what you mean rather than dropping dark hints.

And now you're seeing 'dishonesty' rather than a dodgy memory! "Slap him/her round the face with a wet kipper" is my own phrase when I am exasperated (and it was my father's too, so that's where I get from). I read "I want to punch you on the head" as an equivalent idiom, and so mis-remembered the exact words. It's clearly a figure of speech and not an actual threat - not least because these are strangers on the internet who presumably don't even know who you are, let alone how to find you. To call it 'a real threat of physical violence' is ridiculous and self-pitying.

'It is a real threat of physical violence, from two people'

You do realise that no one knows who you are, or where you live, or anything about you?
That those words are not a real threat of physical violence towards you, but an expression of frustration and rage that you are being deliberately obtuse?
Never mind, if you wrap the tinfoil over the top of your ears, they won't be able to read your GPS chip and track you down.
Meanwhile:
norbertsdad.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/wet-kipper-house-of-keys-isle-of-man-government-google-images-yahoo-image-search.gif

Crosspost Flow, but at least I brought an actual kipper with me.
Well, not yet smoked, so is it a kipper or have I just offered to slap her round the metaphoricals with a virtual fish with an uncertain future?

Cinnabar, I was wondering that too...

"she is going to school, not truanting"

No - she is truanting.

She is upstairs now, refusing to go to school because she has a slight cold. She has missed masses of school since January.

himalayan - re - my 'mental health issues'. I am depressed. Not enough to be medicated. That's all. I'm depressed because I'm knackered and exasperated from dealing with a challenging child with autism (ds) and an even more challenging child (dd) who has spent the last 3 years being very, very defiant for no reason that anyone (including the consultant psychiatrist she is seeing now) can seem to identify. And physically I'm not particularly well, which doesn't help when it comes to coping with stress. DD is being looked after ROYALLY. She has every single adult in the family - me, DH, MIL, FIL, my sister, my SIL, my mother, all looking out for her, worrying about her, trying to offer her support and encouragement. Seriously - she couldn't have more people who care for her welfare present in her life. DH and I have BUSTED our guts to help her. We still kiss and cuddle her, we tell her she's clever and pretty and can do anything she wants to do in life - if she's prepared to work for it. We take her out. We offer her drum lessons, singing lessons, piano lessons - anything she wants to do we will pay for and support her in. We take an interest in her education, in her friends. We try not to be controlling. We have sought out therapy for her and us to try to address her troubled and troubling behaviour. Are you really saying this is a child at risk?

Flow "With the personality you describe, it sounds highly unlikely that your DD will fail in life, though she may not do well in school. With her drive, strength of will, passion, intelligence and sheer bloody-mindedness, she sounds like she will do very well!" - your post puts in to words what is keeping me going in relation to attempting to keep hold of some optimism about dd's future. However dd has never really shown any passion for anything other than prodding the keyboard on her phone, surfing the internet looking for pictures of puppies or fit men, and listening to mainstream rap/r&b music which involves a lot of swearing. Oh, and watching tv. She doesn't read. She doesn't draw. She's not really interested in fashion beyond what any teen is. She has consistently rejected all offers of organised activities in school and out. We have given up trying to suggest things for her to do.

Cory - "What I do hope will come out of this for dd is added resilience. I see so many students who have sailed through life, always had top results, never encountered a real difficulty. They go to pieces when things get rough. I hope that dd will be able to say to herself: Ah, yes, I recognise this; it's a rough patch; I've been through them before, they don't last forever." I understand what you mean about tough times acting as a teacher that can strengthen resolve and understanding in the future. The problem is that dd's difficulties are not the result of depression, anxiety, or external barriers, but are directly a result of the poor choices that she is making. I worry when I think of how she might cope with challenges in adulthood. She can't take charge of her life when she has good mental and physical health, all the support in the world, a good brain, a not very challenging curriculum, so how on earth will she manage in life if she comes up against things which are not self imposed barriers but are barriers put there by chance or society?

"I am going to focus on what is unacceptable today. To you, it should probably be the aggression, to me it's dd staying in bed all day."

Problem is that there are several things I can't tolerate: hitting me and threatening me or her brothers; not going to school because she doesn't feel like it; spending all day after bunking off school in bed watching tv or surfing the internet on the family computer and then being abusive to me if I disconnect the router to stop her doing this; going AWOL so we end up phoning the police and reporting her missing; day after day deliberately making herself very, very late for school (an hour or more, not just 10 minutes).

... Crossed my mind too.

'Um. Is it possible that Himalayan is actually the OP's DD? I note Himalayan's absolute refusal to answer any of the questions put to her by cory and flow4.'

Well, if it is, she's not getting the answers that she wanted from most of us.

No - not my dd. She hasn't had access to the computer for the last few hours. She'd never pick a username like that either. It'd be something like sexiisexiibabieboominnit!

"The problem is that dd's difficulties are not the result of depression, anxiety, or external barriers, but are directly a result of the poor choices that she is making."

Myesss, and dd's injured knee was the result of the poor choice she made when she jumped out of the window. She knows that, she was embarrassed about it, nobody could call it a good choice. But she didn't do it because things were going so well. On the face of it, she has a lot going for her: a loving family, an excellent brain, a genuine interest in her studies. But things were not going well.

"The problem is that dd's difficulties are not the result of depression, anxiety, or external barriers, but are directly a result of the poor choices that she is making. "

There must be some reason she is making those poor choices, though. Presumably she is not making them because she is excited about going to school, looking forward to seeing her friends and positive about the future. Not denying the exhaustion of constant frustration, just thinking it would be easier for you if you could come to see those as symptoms of something that is wrong that might not be your fault, but might be getting in her way.

Ime depression can have many faces: it doesn't have to look dull and miserable. I have been told that I am absolutely charming when I am depressed: I just don't get anything done.

I am wondering if insensitive handling on the part of the professionals has not left you feeling that somebody has got to be to blame and that it's a choice between you and your dd. But does that have to be so?

Can you not clamp down on unacceptable behaviour without trying to decide whether she has a right to be unhappy or not?

Problem is that there are several things I can't tolerate: hitting me and t"hreatening me or her brothers; not going to school because she doesn't feel like it; spending all day after bunking off school in bed watching tv or surfing the internet on the family computer and then being abusive to me if I disconnect the router to stop her doing this; going AWOL so we end up phoning the police and reporting her missing; day after day deliberately making herself very, very late for school (an hour or more, not just 10 minutes)."

You still need to start at one end though. I would start with the hitting and threatening. That is the bit that has to be clamped down on every time. She needs to see that there is a scale of misdemeanour and that hitting is a totally different thing from failing to hand in your homework or watching the telly when you're not supposed to.

As for the school, I would call a meeting with the SENCO and the head of year where I would call a spade a spade, admitt that your dd is school refusing and asked them to investigate plans for working with the situation, preferably together with CAHMS. But I would accept that this probably takes time. It has taken us two years and dd is not yet full time. But those two years will have been worth it if the upshot is that she can handle college and take more responsibility for her own life.

I know what it's like to be furious with a child who seems to be ruining their life. I am ashamed to say I lost it and shouted at dd when she had taken the overdose. I called her irresponsible and a fair few other things. But in the long run that is not the way forward; her best hope is for me to work with her, to vent elsewhere, but to try to cling onto that basic belief that one day we will come through.

min, yes, I read your comment about her truanting after I posted. Still, she is still going sometimes, and that's better than some.

Her disengagement sounds very like my DS1's 3-1 years ago. He opted out of all extra-curricular activities around y6, his academic achievement went downhill to the point that his objective attainment level in maths was lower in y11 (before GCSEs) than it had been in y6! He underachieved very significantly in his GCSEs, and went on to a level 1 course designed to keep boys off the streets and out of the NEET figures. This time last year he was almost thrown of that, was spending his days smoking dope and 'chilling' and had got himself arrested and cautioned a couple of times. He was hanging out with really, really awful people - including two who have just been convicted of murder. :(

Then in September, we hit a crunch point, and things came close to going (even more) pear-shaped. He announced he was going to spend his life on the dole. I exercised great self-control and told him that was his choice, but he wasn't living at home if he wasn't in training or employment.

Then he did get himself a place on a level 3 BTEC course he wanted to do. He was desperately afraid of rejection, and very nearly didn't turn up to interview, and then to enrollment. But for the first time in about 4 years, he pushed himself to do something he didn't know he could achieve easily.

Now, he is coming to the end of his first year on the course. He is doing well, and talking about uni. He has got a volunteer position that is gaining him relevant work experience, and has been project-managing commissioned bits of work for the organisation, and has the prospect of getting bits of paid work himself, in his chosen field. He is handling business meetings and building network contacts and impressing people and enjoying himself. :) Last week was half term, and instead of taking a holiday, he did about 25 hours unpaid work.

I would never, ever have predicted it a year ago. I barely dared to hope. But he has found something he wants to do, rather than something someone else wants him to do... And I'd put money on your DD needing to do the same.

That is a wonderfully positive tale, flow.

"There must be some reason she is making those poor choices, though. Presumably she is not making them because she is excited about going to school, looking forward to seeing her friends and positive about the future"

She doesn't want to do what she doesn't want to do. She doesn't want to do school work because she has to concentrate and make an effort, and she doesn't feel like doing this, particularly in subjects like languages, maths and science where a quick brain and natural flair can't compensate for a lack of any formal learning in the first instance. She doesn't feel like stashing the dishwasher, so when I ask her to do it she just says 'no' and walks away. She doesn't feel like getting up in the morning, so she won't, and then she'll be hopelessly late for school. Once she gets to school she's fine. She has some lovely friends there, and if she's enjoying the lesson she'll participate enthusiastically. But if she's asked to do something she finds a bit boring or hard she just won't do it. And if someone tries to make her she's verbally aggressive and defiant. If teachers ask her to do something she doesn't want to do (move seats, do an activity in PE) she doesn't want to do she just says 'no - I'm not doing that' and digs her heels in. She's like a massive toddler, seemingly completely in thrall to her feelings and whims. I've personally not come across this in an otherwise intelligent, neuro-typical teenager. (I know toddler brain is an feature of normal adolescence for many children, but not to this degree!).

I find that teachers are absolutely puzzled by her. I think the therapists are a bit too.

Flow - I have followed your story. So that things seem to be working out for your ds. Really, really encouraging.