children's clothes with skulls on...WHY?

[sausagepastie]

I can't understand it - it's horrible, isn't it? Or is it just me being old fashioned?

The last thing I want is an image of a skull on my son's clothes.

By nighbynight Sun 21-Mar-10 07:22:08
rockinhippy, just what do you take seriously?

Why should we change our way of looking at death, and associating the skull with death? I am strongly against the current trend to somehow homogenise all cultures, and impose a phoney sort of "equality." (ie everyone should agree with the current way of thinking)
In northern europe, the skull isn't seen in the same way as it is in mexico. Thats not to say that either is wrong, or better than the other, just different. And the argument that we should change to be like them, is just irritating. It is FAR more important that we RESPECT them, than that we change to be like them.

I'm all for cultural diversity, & think our own culture is something to be proud of, but your wrong in thinking all our cultural images are all twee & lovely..........& I think your argument is very weak

we are discussing a rather watered down & safe version of a skull image used as a design feature, 1 that sells well, & kids like, some parents do, & some don't.........its allowed, thats another "cool" thing about OUR culture....its allowed to have your own opinion

Pol pot et all are not really relevant at all, other than to try & sensationalise your argument, which IMO, far from making a good point, is actually having the opposite effect, & making you come across, as seriously needing to get a grip, if not well on your way to "barking mad"

if she is allowed to have her own opinion, why are you calling her "barking mad"??? that doesn't sound very tolerant to me

Oh, stop the quoting reams of my posts, without even bothering with quotation marks too. It doesnt make up for not addressing what I said.

Where did I say that all our cultural images are twee and lovely? if you want to talk about something, then answer my questions and arguments, dont make up things I havent said.

You appear to think that everything is about sensationalising, cool trends, fashion fads and then you throw insults like "barking mad."
It is very hard to have any sort of discussion with you, and I think I wont bother to try any more.

skulls are fine imo what is utterly shite is the lurid pink "I'm a princess' stuff" far far worse .

Right, I'm buying that nappy bag right now!!

So glad I read this thread, who knew my search for a nappy bag would finally be over as a result?

Hope you don't mind me copying stanausauruswrecks. At least we're v unlikely to bump into each other in the street!

Wow, that website is amazing, stanausauruswrecks. Thanks for linking it!

I never really thought about the skulls or dinos on DS's clothing before this thread.

He's got a T-Shirt with a tractor on it too. Maybe I should get rid of that because it's trivialising an industry that is (a) bloody hard work and poorly paid and thus responsible for lots of people topping themselves but also (b) responsible for huge amounts of environmental and animal welfare problems.

And his bib with a truck on it will have to go too since road haulage is a major factor in carbon emissions.

And his Batman T-shirt probably perpetuates gender stereotypes.

Or perhaps I might be overthinking this a tad?

Oh and to actually contribute to the discussion, my dp is a tattoo artist, so I see a lot of skulls! I really love Mexican skull and traditional skull designs, but I don't like the 80s style in black and white with monsters etc.

I don't think depicting skulls in art is disrespectful of the dead.

I see nothing wrong with skulls on childrens' clothes, especially if they are old enough to choose themselves, but I wouldn't put dd in a lot of the type of rock/tattoo style I like, because I don't want to project too much on her. I'd prefer her to choose what she likes herself, so until then, she has some cool black/rock-style stuff, and some pink skirts etc too. I dress her in a mix of stuff, mostly because a lot of it is hand-me-downs I'm grateful for!

feralgirl, it wasnt by images of tractors that we learned about the Cambodian or Ruandan massacres. Go figure.

petisa, I havent said anywhere that images of skulls are disrespectful to the dead, and nor has anyone else, I think. Simply, that I dont want to look at my dd (6) wearing a pink top that carries an image that will forever mean Pol Pot, or Victorian death imagery to me.

I cant stand tattoo designs, sorry! They always look to me as though they are desparately trying to be cool and hard. (we live next door to a tattoo parlour, and I see quite a lot of the customers, as they will insist on parking in my private parking space (clearly labelled), and they get very aggressive when I politely point this out, as I need to get in/out with shopping/children/schoolbags.)

Who started all this nonsense anyway, lol

can#t believe it's still in discussions of the day.

But nighbynight I am liking your posts...and agree with you. fwiw

I predict patterns that look like vomit for next season...

oh dear, per una got there already. They really are cutting edge.

Thanks, sausagepastie

"it wasnt by images of tractors that we learned about the Cambodian or Ruandan massacres"

WTF? It wasn't through caricatures of skulls either. what a truly bizarre thing to say.

Nighbynight you miss my point. Every image can work as a metaphor, it just depends on your individual interpretation and the connotations that you choose to attach to it.

"Go figure."

You're all over thinking it IMO.

Oh and I resent the insinuation that those of us with tattoos are trying to be cool and hard.

And I would never park in your parking space either, despite my tattoos.

Soupdragon, do you really mean to tell me, that you are not familiar with press photographs of piles of skulls from Cambodia? Or Ruanda?
I find that astonishing, but perhaps you are simply not interested in current affairs.

feralgirl, let me do the figuring for you then.
yes, every image can work as a metaphor. It so happens that skulls have worked as a metaphor for massacres recently. Actually, they were not a metaphor, they were the real skulls of people who died. These people didnt die happily, there is no question of the skulls being used to celebrate death. Those skulls were evidence of a massive crime.
Do you really mean to say, that when you think of Pol Pot, you don't see teh pictures of those piles of skulls?
On the other hand, the tractor is used as a metaphor for quality british food, which is a little different.
We are not talking about what it MIGHT be used as a metaphor for, we are talking about reality, ie what it IS used as a metaphor for.

Jeez, remind me never to engage with teh style and beauty crowd again.

nigh, you don't normally see this bunch of reprobates on S&B, you're safe to come back and discuss crocs with us anytime

Er, the Red Tractor symbol is only a sign of basic welfare standards. And a generic tractor can represent different things to different people, surely? As skulls can? (which was my original point)

When I think of Pol Pot one of the things I think of is the piles of skulls but when I think of skulls I don't automatically think of Pol Pot. The two do not have an exclusive link in my mind.

I would not put a picture of Pol Pot on my kid's T-shirt. Neither would I put a photo of the piles of skulls. DS wears cartoonish skulls coz they're pirate-ish and fun and quite cool imo. There is a difference. Not all skulls are evidence of a massive crime and I don't interpret the ones on DS's jumper as metaphors for genocide.

I don't need you to do the figuring for me and I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the style and beauty crowd either. Are you suggesting that I am a frequent poster on the S&B forum (I'm not) or that people who post there are not engaged with current affairs?

I don't think of Pol Pot either. I think of part of the skeletal system that protects the brain.

Or maybe evolution - you know the series of skull fossils showing man's ancestry.

Certainly life, rather than death.

I never usually post here, by the way - was drawn in by the thread being in "discussions of the day" - as I suppose some others have too.

Am now worried I've breached some kind of Mumsnet etiquette by jumping into an area I don't usually post in.

I dont think there is an etiquette as such.

feral, yes, as I also said below, symbols are generic, however 1000 years of history in northern europe is that skulls=death. They are also known as "deaths heads" in english. why is the historic link with death so hard to understand?
IMO the difference between a photo of a pile of skulls, and the skull designs that are on sale in the shops at teh moment, is paper thin. Typically, the designs feature a repeating pattern of skulls, either white on a black background, or black on a lemon/pink/white background, with little artistic merit. They are just something else to avoid on cheap clothes, along with the naff slogans.

Nighbynight, do you really mean to tell me that you learnt of those atrocities through caricatures on T shirts?

Am interested at the way this discussion has gone. I just talked to DH about this - turns out we're both happy for DS to wear 'cute' images of pirates (nasty pillaging murdering bastards) and skulls and skeletons (dead people?) but not something meant to be 'nastier' - like, for instance, a Heavy Metal-ish image of skull with evil eyes, etc. Not that it's very likely - DS is 2, doesn't really know what pirates are yet and neither of us are metal fans!

But I really don't see a problem with skulls and crossbones, like on those Boden pjs. I can think of images I'd find more restful on pyjamas, but we just have to accept that the skull-and-crossbone is an image that's been taken as shorthand for ficticious pirates (aimed at children mostly) for decades, and we can't change it now. I don't see it as a 'metaphor' for death - as loads of people have pointed out, we all have one, alive or dead. Yes, pirate-skulls mean death, but it's a shorthand for pirates-as-aimed-at-children, or the mainstream market who like the Pirates of Caribbean films, not the real murdering bastards.

I also refuse to see an obvious connection between a single skull motif on a 5 yr old's t-shirt, and the piles of skulls from Pol Pot's regime. Have you ever, honestly, seen an image of neatly stacked piles of skulls on a child's t-shirt?

Actually, previous generations had far less of a problem with skulls than some people on this thread. Momento Mori - on your desk or in a painting, to show your non-worldliness, or that you were aware that all is Vanity and that death comes to us all. Mourning jewellery from the 19th century back featured skulls and skeletons very prominently, grave stones and memorials had some particularly grotesque death imagery (worms wriggling out of recumbent skeletons on 17th C funeral monuments springs to mind!). Yes, of course in societies where death is far more prevalent than it is for we lucky lot, you'll find this sort of thing more prevalent. But I'm quite surprised that people want to expunge skeletons and skulls entirely.

Nighbynight, you seem a bit touchy! People are just disagreeing and giving their own opinions and perspectives and saying what skulls mean to them, just like you. No need to write everyone off! I don't think there's a S and B crowd really either, I have a look now and again, but that's it.

I wasn't thinking of you in particular when I wrote my post, and I didn't say you had said it was disrespectful. I was just giving my opinion in general after reading the thread, it was just something that occurred to me. I understand why you wouldn't dress your dd in something with skulls, as you've explained it perfectly clearly, and if I felt like you I wouldn't want to dress my dd in skulls either.

There's no need for you to apologise for not liking tattoo designs, I don't apologise for not liking pastels or jeggings or whatever, we all have different tastes.

I agree with you, there are a lot of people who get (often horrible) tattoos because they want to look hard. But there are all kinds of people in society aren't there, not everyone is nice, and people get tattoos for all sorts of reasons. I mean, would you say that all of those who buy Boden are trying to look middle class? I was wearing my Boden boots and coat today with my tattooed arms and long black goth boots, what does that say about me in your opinion?!

your parking situation sounds like a pain, but why do you feel the need to tell me about it? If I was a teacher would it be ok for someone to complain to me about the agressive yummy mummies who park their 4x4s in their driveway to leave their kids to school as if I was in some way responsible?

Dp always tells customers not to park in front of the private driveway beside us, and we have no parking problems. We love tattoos and dp specialises in tattooing really beautiful traditional Japanese art - dragons, phoenixes, Samurai warriors and so on, and his tattoos are big, like paintings, entire arms, legs, backs. We are certainly not interested in appearing "hard" to anyone or shocking old ladies. In fact I hate the looks I get from people, but such is life, we are all different, and I don't criticise other people's interests in art or fashion, live and let live.

Anyway, sorry for ranting on!