Instagrammers and Influencers

[scotx]

New thread to follow on from this one

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/style_and_beauty/3462129-Can-we-chat-about-fashion-Instagrammers-influencers?msgid=84590932

@ooglyboo - that's exactly it! Erica Davis is only doing what she has always done - working in fashion so of course she is doing nothing wrong and good luck to her. The criticism is directed at those who are less than honest about their business dealings - those who want to garner support with these hideous #womensupportingwomen. Those who want to create a platform for women's heath etc but can't admit it is a means to an end to finance their holidays, their kitchens etc..... cos that kind of reality ain't really so great for mental health issues. The drip, drip feed of "just like my followers" is being exposed for the sales pitch it really is. MLM indeed.

I’ve read all this with interest and feel much more informed so I’m really frustrated that so many of the bloggers are still ignoring the rules. Among the people I follow, I’m not seeing #AD before posts with gifted content - not even the bloggers that are being praised here for apparently ‘handling it well’....yeah it’s mentioned in the wording lower down with some of them but that’s not what the guidelines require.

I don't know if anyone listened to the programme about Surveillance Capitalism on R4 yesterday, but it was super interesting. I sometimes think we focus too much on the other 'users' of platforms and not enough on how social media companies are using data about how we all respond to content - influencer, adverts and other punters like us to both extract commercial value from as much as possible and influence our behaviours so we spend even more. It's not about the individuals or even brands anymore, it's about creating a monolithic structure where even your thoughts are monetised.
Dons tin hat

I caught a bit of it Swimming thought it sounded good. Might check it out on Radioplayer

I do think fashion based ones can be more upfront, or are more upfront. It was the seemingly normal ‘relatable’ aspects of the family ones brands loved so much. It really is selling the whole life thing that people love.

Easier to say I get loads of free clothes if that’s more your thing otherwise you might be searching the cupboards for an old jumper for a bit.

It's not about the individuals or even brands anymore, it's about creating a monolithic structure where even your thoughts are monetised.

. I can't think of any logical other reason why Facebook would allow so much advertising to be happening on their platform without them taking a cut of it?

I agree all the pride at working like this, talking about women together or using dc etc doesn’t let us look at the where it’s headed

We’re getting closer to some out there ideas pretty quickly and there’s no room for critique. As someone said on another thread ages ago we’re sleep walking into a Black Mirror situation

I’m so pleased about these rules as it is a small distancing tool

It's interesting though, there are loads and loads of threads about influencers etc on mumsnet, and I think it reflects a kind of subconscious unease. It's like we know something is wrong, and we're trying to locate the source of the 'wrongness'. We plump with the face of it - which is the individuals who give us the weird cognitive dissonance - but I think the reason they sometimes get upset is that they feel 'unfairly' targeted. I think both sides have a point because both sides are being manipulated by this system, only one side is seeing some financial benefit and the other side is only being milked. But the real money is going somewhere else completely.

The example of Seven Boot Lane is interesting to me because they invested in a lot of influencers to grow their business, and I actually thought they had a good product, but they went into administration. So it's not even the brands who are the real financial winners in this situation. Instagram would have gleaned a lot of useful information from that experiment though, which they can use profitably in the future. kerching!

I follow lots of bopo and age acceptance people on insta - they aren't really even mainly trying to make money (although everyone is because - bills etc) but I am also contributing valuable data to insta even though those people are generally all about fighting the superstructure etc... I remember reading someone who helped create social media and then took against it saying that FB/Insta etc are all a live experiment on how to manipulate the human psyche to extract value and why would you knowingly participate in that? I need to get off social media, really I do! WHY HAVEN'T I???

Ha I’m just so pleased I never did Twitter / FB properly or LinkedIn

My excuse for IG is I used to buy a whole load of fashion magazines for work, loads of them, paper and space, then used pin now I can access that content and save it easily. Still I know it’s bad.

And to make it worse I’m on here talking about it but I do think mn can help change some stuff

I’m not surprised a brand that only grows by flooding the IG market doesn’t survive

People love free content hard though to convert esp if you know everyone wearing them didn’t pay.

Well the argument is that you provide a lovely product people want and nothing is more enticing to humans than social connection. Then you eliminate the alternatives so that to participate in even basic social activities you have to join in. Hook me up to the hive mind baby. Speaking as a woman who currently owns a pair of those platform hiking boots and a lot of credit card debt...

I would love to know what Instagram HQ actually discuss about this stuff. A pp is right - why aren't they taking a cut? There must be a bigger play.

The problem for the bigger influencers in particular is that the very thing that makes this sort of advertising so successful makes it very emotional. Some of the comments here and in previous threads are not about transparency like 'why should they get to go on a fabulous freebie holiday that they could afford themselves' and 'why shouldn't a more deserving person get a holiday like that' demonstrate this.

Presumably people don't think like that when they see a review in the Sunday times of the latest spa or the latest brands in Vogue magazine. Why should that travel journalist get to go on all those free holidays that normal people couldn't afford? But the thing is, 1) you know it's an ad and 2) you don't connect emotionally with that journalist, you don't know their kids names or what their husband does or what their house looks like.

It's the blurring of business and personal. And particularly with the influencers that are doing family and fashion and interiors.

The thing is some of the criticism on here about the fact that Instagram is influencing us to buy stuff we don't need is not about Instagram but about living in a capitalist society. That's the basis of how we live and how are economy works. Businesses need to sell their stuff to make money, employ people, pay tax. I'm not sure people look at a tv advert for Waitrose or Asda or Topshop and think - why are they trying to push me stuff I don't need? But by pushing the advertising into 'normal people' we are holding them to an extra level of accountability.

To be clear I'm not sympathising, as brands and influencers have been completely complicit in this by calling something a 'gift' in the first place which is very far from what it is. I agree with Lisa Dawson that it's all a business transaction. But it's unfair to assume everyone knows that if you don't make it crystal clear.

I think one of the problems is that the Influencers feel that we don’t like the idea of them being paid. What people don’t like is the fact that you have been paid, even indirectly, is often hidden or fudged. The lack of transparency becomes more apparent when the honest ones show just how much they are given/ gifted/ paid.

Definitely, users behaviours are monitored on FB and Insta. Users are manipulated, not just for buying clothes, but voting in elections. The influencers are just part of that, and are being just as used as we are. Black Mirror plots are already here.

It’s interesting though, I once loved FBI now rarely use it, I barely look at Twitter, I’m becoming uneasy about Instagram. I wonder if the next big thing will actually persuade me to download it? Perhaps I’ll be too wise, next time?

Presumably people don't think like that when they see a review in the Sunday times of the latest spa or the latest brands in Vogue magazine. Why should that travel journalist get to go on all those free holidays that normal people couldn't afford? But the thing is, 1) you know it's an ad and 2) you don't connect emotionally with that journalist, you don't know their kids names or what their husband does or what their house looks like.

I'd previously raised the free holiday point and these are some of the reasons they grate with me. And the way Instagram operates is not to print some glossy photos that you can flick on by quickly (like Vogue) but there are posts, stories for days on end about their holiday accompanied by endless gushing about how lucky they are. It just feels crass and the comments are even worse "you so deserve it". Coupled with the fact they often haven't been honest in the past. See MOD/FOD/RVK. Or they use the term 'small discount' - is that 10%, free accommodation or what? And it matters because they are trying to sell it to us otherwise they wouldn't have been gifted it in the first place.

@Popcorninapot my first paragraph was taken from your post...not sure why it's not in bold!

Presumably then it is in Instagram’s (well Facebook as they own them) interest to not want to see an exodus of engaged users from Insta. The stats show huge growth in users but this will at some point slow. If users engage less and end up withdrawing from the platform due to the prevalence of misleading influencers Instagram suffers.

Instagram (Facebook) does make an incredible amount of money in paid promotions so needs as engaged as audience as possible just for this revenue stream (not only the more sinister aspects discussed above).

Obviously they are unable to constantly police individual accounts but if influencers are consistently breaking legal guidelines then perhaps we should be reporting them to Instagram.

If they are using Insta to flout laws and guidelines then Insta has a responsibilty not to allow this to continue. The threat of being kicked off their advertising platform should be enough to encourage influencers to comply.

I just deleted the Instagram app! My wallet will thank me. Love Mumsnet.

Re. capitalism, I think the argument is that this is a new kind of capitalism, or an extension of capitalism because it's monetising your thoughts, predicting your behaviours and corralling people down routes based on lots of things that aren't your purchasing behaviour. I don't know if that's correct, but that's the argument I've heard. I agree individual people can be annoying and I support advertising regulation on Instagram. I guess what I feel is that govt may want to look at something bigger than that because I have a sneaking feeling paid instagrammers etc are the symptom rather than the cause.

Well done Swimming

On the magazine point. Advertising is ok we’re mostly fairly good at consuming it in a non-detrimental fashion

In the same way I notice but don’t really feel manipulated by streaming ads or even ads on IG - because it’s clear they are sponsored ads

But it’s the melding of personal and commercial, esp when it comes to using private life / dc to build content / followers that fudges it. Candid pics bath beach normal life whatever of their dc gets the followers

I’m more ok with people who build their own content just using them although prefer the transparency now

How about

You have to declare whether you’re using the app to make money / receive gifts to advertise and if you intend to or are then you need consent from everyone

Then the people who say they live the community / online family album can do that and sales can do that

Love that is

Consent can be over some chosen age

Yes of course, this is about capitalism. And absolutely, capitalism has always been about creating need. But that is precisely my point (think I mentioned this up thread or in the last thread), that this is a new development of late capitalism - it is an incredibly effective form of advertising based on the emotional appeal of access to the influencer's life and the feeling that you have some sort of relationship with them.

It isn't that this hasn't happened before but advertisers had to work much harder to get your attention and keep it. With influencers, they are literally in your pocket, most of the time. Influencers may not have set out to occupy this role but this is where many of them have ended up. In my view they need to own it and not act as if its an insult to their identity to be held up to high standards of transparency.

Mentioning no names but it does particularly annoy me when some influencers take time out from Insta because they say they have to protect themselves from the life lived on-line and keep something for themselves - as though their followers want more than they can possibly give. I've seen one say indignantly that she doesn't have to share everything. Well .. no. But it was your choice to marketize your life in the first place!

That's why I think DMBL40 is managing it 'well' in the sense that she complies with the rules as far as I can see and apart from that seems to take a "never explain, never complain" attitude. I don't think she's managing it well from the point of sustainability on the other hand - but at least I have never seen her claim that she cares!

The wider issues around all this, the data that is collected on us by tech companies, how social media can modify our behaviour is fascinating. There is an interesting book by Jared Lanier on all of this. He also has a TED talk which is worth a watch. Don't want to derail the thread, but I think it is important to keep in mind we are being manipulated. Now where is that tin foil...

I reckon the tin foil is no longer needed ;

Sounds interesting will check it out

@ ooglyboo - Mentioning no names but it does particularly annoy me when some influencers take time out from Insta because they say they have to protect themselves from the life lived on-line and keep something for themselves - as though their followers want more than they can possibly give. I've seen one say indignantly that she doesn't have to share everything. Well .. no. But it was your choice to marketize your life in the first place!
So completely true! It's as if these people have become put upon by their demanding disciples. Get a grip - you're running a business, no point complaining about your customers.

..... and am really chuckling about the daddy influencer who has had to revert to old kitchen footage - now, why could that possibly be?