This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette

[AuldAlliance]

But we'll still enjoy it...

The Grayson Perry series does sound interesting, thank you all for the tip. Thanks to the internet the very groomed look is common among young women/girls here in Sweden too. I think the class perspective may be shifting too. Am starting to think there’s a sort of meritocracy in it, as in the best winged eyeliner is more upper class than the rest? ;) but that is prob just because they haven’t yet fully experienced what the real class system does in terms of privilege but think they can change things with shallow stuff. In the older crowd you spot class quite differently, I know I’ve mentioned it with skincare before, how women don’t mind so much that there skin tans and thus ages quicker since it also shows you’re living (in your lovely summer house on the coast or on your private boat or on your skiing holidays).

Pity about the Arket trousers. Am vexed on your behalf. Wish wide leg trousers without front pleats would come back, easier to get right imo.

Am dreaming about blue Donegal tweed now ❤️

I like the kemperman skirt on you Flo, it’s the sort of thing I would’ve liked in my youth actually (but now would think a bit de trop pour moi). Seems worth an alteration!

Re raincoats I’m looking for a what we in Swedish call “galonjacka” now because I’ve decided old fashioned is best. The ones that are a bit like rubber you know. www.rains.com/collections/jackets-women/products/long-jacket-female?variant=8144762142766

Have a conundrum atm since I bought those floral trousers thinking I’d wear them to the not too fancy wedding party next weekend but am realising I broke all sensible shopping rules when I got them because I have nothing to wear them with. And my bloody husband wants to wear a suit which means if I’m too casual I’ll look ridiculous.

The dressing up thing is regional too. The advice on S&B is always dress down in London no matter what the occasion, which I find quite dispiriting. Give me Liverpool any day - they take a party very seriously there.

And going back to universities - ours are very much part of the class system, which is why I'm always fascinated at how differently our closest neighbours do it. I think there would be carnage if anyone here suggested some kind of random allocation of places , even though the clearing system (after exam results, when unis with unfilled places and student who haven't got the grades they needed scramble to find each other) is about as random as it gets.

bani I think the Kemperman skirt was bo's but I do have a dramatic skirt thing going on at the moment so she is torturing me with Rick Owens What I really want is something more everyday wearable (and affordable!). But before I rush out and spend I'll check my cupboard - I'm sure I've got at least one candidate somewhere but it will only work if I can dye it.

I loved those floral trousers bani - hope you can find something to wear with them.

I find MN an interesting microcosm, a lot is very much class based and bun fights tend to incite on behalf of a lot of them. It can also seem like social mobility is only ever financial, even if you were born working class you still identify as such even if your bank statement says otherwise. From the outside looking in it can seem that little has changed since George Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion, and everyone is still trying to catch one another out as being inauthentic, as in, presenting themselves to be someone they're not born as.

Here everyone just wants to be perceived as not poor (who are seen as antisocial) but at the same time not hoity toity (again antisocial, but a snobby version rather than anti-authoritarian). Being middle class is seen as a positive to most (though I use middle class to denote as it's used elsewhere, of median income and it's a large homogeneous group) and signifiers of grand material success tend to be looked down upon.

Education does have some class ties here but it's much more the sororities and other informal networks than the education system itself. We don't have many private schools either, there are some but they tend to be international or other foreign language based since we have so many expats or very small class based ones for children who really struggle within a normal class setting, either behaviourly or learning disabilities. These do get catered to in the public sector but they're more likely to fall behind and they're less likely to in such a one on one setting.

Secondary education is tiered though, at the end of primary you do an exam that sets you up with one of three levels, the highest gets you into university, the others don't without additional schooling at the highest level and are meant to get you into vocational schools or college. I think that makes a big difference too, if the initial pool is already on equal footing it's a bit odd to be selecting on that basis, as mentioned before, grades achieved in secondary are a poor predictor for academic success. I think Finland has the most impressive education records and it's pretty much all public but I think having a small country/population makes it easier too. We only have a handful of universities and they're mostly of comparable rank.

Sorry, went off topic there, meant to talk raincoats. I'd looked at the Rains ones, saw a few in the sale, was debating the practicality of a poncho version on a bike but then remembered having one and whilst it kept me dry I'd collect a huge pond of water with it between the arms when cycling

Meant to ask about Elka, Bani. Any Scandi insights as they're pretty much old fashioned rubber coats (which, if sourced ethically, seem a decent durable choice). I was looking at the Stutterheim ones too but the prices are more fashion than practical rain coat.

Actually had to google Ella, shows how either uncommon it is or how out of the loop I am. I can do not find it sold as workwear? Which means if “ordinary” people buy it they’re prob of the either very outdoorsy or handyman-y variety and I am neither 😬 Probably solid? Have no intel. Stutterheim though ... I’d say they’re decent coats but the COST of them and the attitude, like your man discovered raincoats altogether. In general such coats are more available here recently, but I’d like a quite long one. My husband has a new car one with a little dip and split at the back in khaki/olive green. He spends more on stuff though than I do. Can check what he got later. He cycles in it anyway (obv).

Rain ponchos are shit for cycling. Ask me how I know this. 😡

Incidentally there’s a blog called Stuff Dutch people like ... 😉

Re skirt I MEANT to write Bo but then wrote Flo. I blame the usernames 😉

Thanks for tip re bike clips btw can’t believe I haven’t looked for them there already. Am at hairdressers now but will go in after. 👍🏻 And then look for tops. Already seen a few pink things in sale. Would prefer navy blue but have pink heels that can get an outing.

I bought a nice raincoat from TK Maxx a few weeks ago - black, comes to mid-thigh, very waisted, which I like. The brand was something called Nautica. Not sure exactly how rainproof it is though. Have only tried it out in drizzle so far.

Yeah bo I have not got any visual artistic skills and am naturally cackhanded so make-up is just being a bit of a struggle. :) Make up people on counters always put me in cool-toned stuff, but actually I look better in things with a warmer tone.

Went to Kingston today and played around in Cos, & Other Stories and Uniqlo - was great to actually be able to feel the Uniqlo stuff and try it on rather than guesstimating online sizes. Also found a sort of Edwardian pencil/hobble skirt with ruffle/ruching in River Island for £10.

I wanted to try some of the new-in Cos fairly casual skirts but I was a bit quick as the store hadn't got them yet, so I've ordered two sizes of each online to try.

Tried on a lot of wide leg trousers and every type seems to look terrible on me. Oh well.

Temporarily returning from my self-imposed exile - still not getting outside the house, but (or maybe that should read “and”) I’m back on the insanity wagon. I’ve worked my way through the first thread and part way through the second. As a result I now feel in burning need of swapping out most of my wardrobe 🧐🙄 (my casual clothes especially have been acquired without much thought or cohesion to them, I have been focusing on building up a quality wardrobe for work in the past few years).

Prime exhibit of the insanity is that I have a Yoox basket sitting there that is full of trousers... I won’t be able to do them up, butI could wear them with those pregnancy belly bands until I get back in shape, non?... /

That's a shame about the trench, hopefully the smell will go, but it does take away from the enjoyment of the lovely new thing a bit.

Good to hear from you Peregrane and glad you're ok. I think I missed the body shape discussion so I'll leave that to experts, other than that I regard myself a somewhere between a pear and an hourglass.

So trouser opinions - and opinions is all they are: I like the caramel ones best but I guess I'm thinking of what would work for me, rather than for you. I think the lighter coloured pair are going to be pitiless on the thighs so if you have pear tendencies they might be tricky.

Now I love wide legs so, in theory, they should be my favourite but - and far be it from me to argue with Alexa - that shape is a bit too 90s/ early noughties for my taste. I had kept several pairs from that era and couldn't wait to try them out again but none of them look quite right, partly because they're so low waisted, which is one look I am determined never to go back to (and feel free to buy me a ticket to Switzerland if I ever forget). I prefer more of an 80s shape with a higher waist, room to put your hands in your pockets and tapering a bit towards the ankle. But that's just me and my personal taste and I think Alexa Chung is a tad more influential than I am!

Don't forget that when you get back into shape, it might not be the same shape and be ready to keep on evaluating what works.

I'm furious for you about that Fold coat. A high end brand like that should know better.

Strike that - any brand at any price point should know better. It's just basic courtesy.

I have some comments on previous posts but no time atm, I just wanted to quickly post this that I found on Reddit, a visualisation on the sizing of pockets in men's and women's jeans: pudding.cool/2018/08/pockets/

Meh, I can't get worked up about pockets, Bani. I just like spotting them as I know it means the garment hasn't been completely stripped to maximise profits, but I don't ever really use them.

Elka actually has two lines, the utilitarian one which is quite affordable and the fashion line which feel a bit old fashioned as they're really thick and heavy. Not sure how useful than is on a bike though.

Good to hear you had a good shop, Catharine. Nautica is a US sailing brand IIRC so should hold up well in the rain, I'd wager.

Sounds like you're neutral coloured, or your body and face are a mismatch. I'm decidedly neutral in the face but yellow in the body. I can do cool toned in the winter as my body isn't that visible and it looks better with the light at that time of year and I need to do the opposite in summer. Counter staff tend to struggle to get it right.

*Fold not Folff

Peregrane, if you're a size 27, 28 or 30 they have discounted Penelopes in a lovely dark denim here:

www.glamood.com/25-cm-stretch-denim-penelope-jeans-P89416.htm

No free shipping though.

It was a good shop although in seven hours I only bought 2 things - a Uniqlo cable knit jumper and the aforementioned skirt.

Saw this bag in John Lewis - www.johnlewis.com/john-lewis-alina-leather-slim-backpack/olive/p3651048 - much nicer in the flesh, in fact it was so nice people were walking across the shop to touch it - but sadly I don't need another backpack.

Well fair enough but they made a page where you can test-put stuff into virtual pockets, I find that commendable in itself. I use pockets madly. Running around work with laptops, phones, pens, files - pockets!

Well I've not seen Elka around I have to say. My husband has a Tretorn. It's nice. We don't have far to cycle though, say ten minutes to work (although we might go further on other trips). I'm just so anti goretex and the rest of them, claiming to not make me sweaty but they do. Might as well go trad. They def don't let rain in. There's a shop/brand called Edblad which is all "lifestyle" and pretentious/fancy (everything is cream, blush pink or black/grey), and they have their rain coats on sale atm at 70 % off here - the only ones I seen with the length I want so far. I'm not rushing though.

I have this raincoat in a dark, forest green. It's a Hornbaek by Ilse Jacobsen, it's rubberised, I think, and pretty waterproof, if it's absolutely torrential it gets a bit damp around the hood seam, but mostly good for walking around with dcs in rainy weather. I've had it 5 or 6yrs, I think.

I just love the feel of pockets. When I was a kid I was always getting told to take my hands out of my pockets and straighten my shoulders. I was an odiously well behaved child but this was one of my few rebellions. (Mind you they were right about my shoulders.)

And I'm not a bag lover so jackets and coats without decent pockets really make me cross. It's partly why men's clothes were such a revelation - inside pockets for wallets and phones and stuff.

flo I remember wearing an old grey, tweed jacket of my dad's through most of my 6th form (no uniform) and all the pockets being a revelation. Mind you, dp puts so much in his jean pockets, it distorts the shape of the jeans in an unflattering way.

I started writing this post on Friday, but work got in the way so I’m going to stick it up anyway even though it’s a bit out of date and a bit of a brain dump.

botemp Yvonne Kone has a forest green pump that’s really lovely. I’m very tempted. That fits in the things I want and need box, so I might buy next month.

In the “things I want, but do not need box” is this coat / shawl from IM. And this Chloe dress. puts head in hands

I think the observations about the glam factor definitely ring true for my experiences in the UK. Less so in Ireland except among the very young, but maybe that’s because we don’t generally have much of a class structure here. Everyone is from pretty humble backgrounds and most of my parent’s generation, no matter their financial situation, would not go for that super groomed look. It’s that idea that we’re all probably only 2 generations from being working class or farmers that means there isn’t really a class structure in Ireland (bar the landed Brits). You’re either still working class or you’re noveau riche! I love getting dressed up for an event. You can’t beat a good hat for a wedding.

I like wearing make-up, but I keep it fairly simple. As I’ve got older my skin is actually clearer due to outgrowing spots and better skin care so I find I need less in the way of foundation and concealer which is nice.

I’m enjoying all the talk, including the mum talk, on artistic abilities. I would love to be more artistically inclined. I think I have a reasonable eye for design, but that only involves enjoying other people’s work. I wish that I was truly creative. It’s interesting to read your thoughts on those who are good at drawing botemp. My husband is very naturally talented when it comes to sketching and drawing, but it hasn’t transferred over to many other creative skills. I keep hoping he’ll have great insight into the finishes and furniture that we’re going to be picking and honestly he’s not much use!

I don’t really like the idea of commenting on anyone else’s figure, but I don’t think that there’s an equivalence between calling someone fat and calling someone thin due to the (unfortunate) innate value that our society places on thinness. In terms of direct comments about appearance I believe that Japanese and Chinese cultures are in a league of their own there. DH’s friend was asked “How did you get so fat?” on a visit with seemingly no malice intended. When we brought DS we were approached several times by people to tell us he was very white – or saying “shiro, shiro” which was weird. What do you say to that other than “yes”? He has that Irish skin from DH’s side that’s so pale it’s practically luminous and of course as a PFB was never exposed to sun without being slathered in cream.

Gosh – such a lot to catch up on, so this is post 2.

PSA – I think that the UNIQLO U collection launches today.

Xing Great results, hopefully the English is worth appealing.

SophieLion It was Peony’s cardigan, but I can’t remember which shop. Whistles and Jigsaw are always interchangeable in my mind.

Peony - love the skirt. How’s the pregnancy going? That’s really interesting re bf and fat distribution. I was bemoaning the fact that I now have fat on my lower abs when I previously would not have store fat there. I’m still bf my youngest at night so maybe there’s hope for me yet.

botemp Nice jumper, but it kind of looks like they might have pulled the stylist’s trick of clipping at the back to get it fitted around the waist? Thanks for sharing the slip skirt feature. I went back for another looks at that Sies Marjan one, but sold out now in my size. I like the attached Realisation Par one. Less versatile than the Sies Marjan one as I don’t think I would wear it to work, but I love the pattern. I’ve seen the slip skirts all over Instagram with flats and a t-shirt, but hadn’t really considered that they’d be good in winter too with boots and a jumper as you suggested - great idea. Love, love the green dress. I did not know that Yoox photoshopped the clothes onto the models. That explains a lot.

Floisme - sounds like you got some great bargains and the colour of the mac sounds great. There’s so much brown coming into the shops, it’s a breath of fresh air and great if it suits you.

banivani I love the pocket infographics. It’s very cleverly done. I rarely use pockets in close fitting garments, but I love having them in a fuller skirt or dress and bemoan the lack of a slim inside pocket on a jacket which is perfect for a credit card when popping out to the shop. Speaking of pointless pockets, one pair of jeans I have has a distressed pocket on the bum. I keep forgetting and putting coins in there only to have them fall straight out the bottom. No pair of mens jeans would have a pocket like that.

Peregrane - I like the shape of the Alexa ones best. I’m a pear and agree with Floisme that the light ones would be very unforgiving. That’s very poor service from the Fold. Did they offer a partial refund?

Speaking of customer service I got in touch with Sezane who have repeatedly been terrible with refunds. I’ve had to chase them up every time and in this particular instance 4 weeks had passed since I sent the items back. It makes me wonder if I’d ever have been refunded. I really dislike when companies hang on to customer’s cash presumably to improve their own cash flow. I complained and to their credit they gave me 20 euro credit so they’re on a yellow card for now.

On the sustainability side I see that Everlane are doing clean silk www.everlane.com/silk

What what what.... I didn't think Uniqlo U was till September?

That backpack looks lovely, Catharine. I've just dug out one that's never been worn the other day, it was a gift from my father to my mother from Brazil, it's really sculptural and architectural actually but it's only got one sling (?) but I think I can sort of wear it bucket style. I'm not a big fan of rucksacks usually, they just don't feel safe to me for whatever reason. I'll try to take a pic later if I remember.

I'm always quite pleased with a small haul, it means I saw a lot but picked with discern. Sort of the opposite of going to the supermarket hungry and buying everything in sight.

Bani, I go so far to keep the pockets on jackets sewn up. They make the garments loose shape over time and keys are notorious for destroying them and often take the lining with them. I do feel rather naked without a bag though. I only ever dare use pockets if they're cotton lined but I only really see those in the high end and possibly COS.

Quirky, I've tried some of the techno fabric coats from Ilse Jacobsen but found them very suffocating, I have that with some synthetic fabrics. Might have a look at the standard rain coats though. I'm currently contemplating attached from Toteme which is made from recycled polyester so alleviates my environmental guilt of tossing out previous ones a bit. Am a bit worried that at my height it's just going to read giant trashbag though

Not helpful, but I really like the IM coat, Elle, does it come with the belt as I do think that sort of makes it. I like the dress too (and shoes obvs) but I've not known you to be drawn to such warmer caramel tones (yet).

I'm on the fence with the realisation par skirt, but that's probably down to the hearts. I like the pattern in the abstract though.

Yes, the appreciation for very white skin is a touch uncomfortable as it's not the same racial stigma as here but it's still pretty damning of even slightly tan skin.

I saw the new 'clean' silk email from Everlane too, which looks promising. I also saw they have a new workbag which you can carry a laptop in (probably no bigger than a 13") and it's pretty reasonably priced at $225. Can be worn cross body, I like the cognac colour but also comes in dark green and black. Not sure I'm in need of a new work bag but there aren't many out there which can carry a laptop and look like a normal bag.

PSA: Uniqlo U launch date is September 20th (here) not today as far as I can tell. It does seem to be launching a week earlier in the US so hopefully we can check fabric compositions there ahead of launch instead of loosing out on launch day.

Sorry sorry - I misread the date for Uniqlo U. Must get my coffee.

The IM belt is sold separately, but agree you'd need it too, otherwise you may as well wear a blanket.

I do like caramel, but there hasn't been as much of it around. It can wash me out a bit if I'm not careful.

That Everlane bag is very smart in the cognac.

20th September sounds more like it and I haven't had an email from Uniqlo but something must have gone off because the logo on my screen was showing the 'U' image and the preview seems to have disappeared.

Anyway the panic has helped me focus. I wasn't sure about ordering yet more wide leg trousers but now I have just got to have them.

By the way, the ines de la fressange collab launches on 30th August which I think is next week? I've never ordered so don't know what her stuff is like but there's some tweed there.