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This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette

995 replies

AuldAlliance · 23/05/2018 10:06

But we'll still enjoy it...

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XingMing · 09/08/2018 15:35

Elle and Peony, you are both looking so chic, so effortless. Hat tipped to you!

Given DS's age, I cannot presume to offer any helpful thoughts on maternity wear (I owned only a pair of maternity jeans and two T-shirts, borrowed DH's clothes and wore loose dresses and a couple of long knit pencil/tube skirts hoisted above the bump for work until seven months, when freelance work halted for summer). I did develop mahoosive bazookas (J cups!) which were the worst part. Irritatingly, they were useless for their supposed purpose but shrank obligingly fast postpartum.

Stylish Europeans do seem to have a sense of restraint that makes the elegance appear easy. They know when to stop adding to the picture and then concentrate on the theme park or the beach, or whatever else. On a beach in Brittany, I saw a lady with her toddler and husband; the whole family was chic. Flawless skin, well-cut hair, fit bodies wearing simple bikini and shorts. It looked effortless, but everything fitted perfectly which doesn't happen by chance as we all know!

I'm feeling good about today's outfit, and would post a picture but I need a crash course in how to achieve a decent selfie first. Just jeans (pale concrete), layered charcoal T shirts, and blush loafers.

botemp · 09/08/2018 16:16

Bani, I think what we think of breasts and nipples brings it all into tricky territory as dainty small breasts are made out to be chic. See attached for what just popped up in my inbox, the jumper I was really quite taken with when I tried it on in Paris sans bra (guess I'm not that chic as I put my nips in the witness protection program before posting here). You can even get special pasties to stick on your own nips so you always look freezing 'chic'. Whenever this look comes around (definitely now) it turns the opposite previous feminine ideal back into matronly and/or vulgar. Don't know if it's worth crying the M-word over but making breasts fashionable and unfashionable is utterly bizarre.

It's an odd thing though because people do notice, but I'd think we'd notice it a lot less if nips were a more common sight. Upon returning from Paris I thought everyone was giant and I was feeling suddenly inadequate about my own boob size as everyone is in padded bras here which is something I never really take notice of otherwise. Though probably how taboo nudity is considered plays into how certain countries/cultures perceive it.

Sorry, I've just reread that BBC article properly instead of being close to falling asleep and it does say specifically that the wrong sizes measured were underestimating the bra band by up to 4" and overestimating the cup size by up to 3. That's pretty much the bra intervention in a nutshell so I am left wondering how great the method is if it's causing severe enough back pain and necessitating surgery in those sizes. Granted it's just an observation within a specific clinical setting which people with back issues specifically seek out, so not exactly representative.

Danny, I've probably ranted about it at length (everyone else just scroll on) on here so you'll reread it here and there but basically I was raised with access to higher quality clothes and a mother and grandmother who very educating about it. Not necessarily expensive, it was a mix of all sorts but the emphasis was always on understanding quality and how that related to price. I can usually spot the composition of a garment by eye and feel. I judge quality much more on what it weighs in my hand than what it says on the label (natural does not necessarily trump all) and I know the amount of care and precautions it requires to maintain it in the best condition. I've dabbled in pattern and dress making, so I know what goes into it and what to look out for in the way fabric is cut and sewn. You get to the cost per wear reasoning quite quickly (though on occasion I can get creative with the maths) with that base knowledge and it just makes sense that the things you wear often and you touch on a daily basis are quality pieces. I'm not one for spending big on occasion pieces you'll wear once or twice, or ridiculously beautiful shoes you can't walk in, etc. though.

WARNING: much moralising ahead.

The reality is it's also harder when you know the higher end of it to see the bottom end of it. To me it can be like walking into a display of trash on hangers as the majority is already deteriorating before you've even bought it just from people fitting it. I'm referring to the very specialised race to the bottom type shops here, where things are already out of style when you walk out of the door with it as they pretty much renew stock weekly and if you don't get it now, you'll lose out on it. It feels disrespectful to me to buy something so temporary, for a cheap thrill (scoring a 'bargain'), to those who manufactured it for a meagre pay, or picked the cotton for even less, dyed the leather at serious risk to their own health and environment, etc. They're the ones left paying for my cheap thrill along with the planet when I've had my fill far sooner than anticipated and it doesn't sit right with me. Not that high end is free of this but the likelihood diminishes, but Burberry has been firmly parked on my shitlist on the back of recent reporting that they burn a ridiculous amount of extra stock to keep it 'exclusive'. I'm not interested in paying a premium for status and vote with my feet when it comes to those companies.

I'm not perfect, I prefer not to shop fast fashion but it happens, it's a good way to try new things out stylistically that you're not ready to sink serious money into. I try to be as informed about it as I can and it's never the stuff I know will never last and everyone should decide for themselves what makes sense and doesn't. I'll never be a completely ethical/second hand only type.

Ranting over, I actually came to post previously promised pics (some are from Zara Blush) but I need to get onto other things so I'll do that at some point in the near future.

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
ToElleWithIt · 09/08/2018 16:47

Quick close up of the bangles for bani. I have thoughts on the high - end question, but they’ll have to wait until I’m at a computer!

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
quirkychick · 09/08/2018 17:19

Very chic bangles, Elle.

I've been having some conversations with dd1 (12) about quality clothes, after she spent a gift voucher on a hoodie that bobbled before even being put in the wash (I'm looking at you, topshop). We were looking for t-shirts in h&m recently, and some on the sale rail had stitching that was already very visibly falling apart. However, it's not as simple as cheap= poor quality or expensive= good quality. I have some h&m conscious (to use the same label as an example) t-shirts that I've had for 5+yrs and are going strong, they're a slouchy, slubby weave, I also have a similar t-shirt from anthropologie that I have had to mend several times, which was much more expensive, so in that instance the h&m t-shirts are better quality for less price iyswim.

I like the phrase of preemptive rather than retroactive effort, bo, that explains it well. It is some sense of restraint that gives discreet, good taste, but you have to be careful it doesn't end up too boring.

botemp · 09/08/2018 19:51

Quite frankly it's a rather unapologetic snobbish position, quirky, it's basically saying I can have it all but only this will do. It's haughty and humble all rolled into one. It's interesting I think it's in their history, France, and specifically Paris, has always been where Catholism and Protestants clash and they do seem to thrive on that tension and navigating that tight rope but it's also very much that with one misstep it leads to escalation. The French have a saying that's something along the lines of, when France sneazes, Europe gets sick.

Agree that it's not exclusively down to price, and the H&M group will be a lot more ethically and socially responsible than a lot of brands charging far higher prices and will outdo them in terms of longevity too in certain pieces.

Right pics, yesterday's outfit, was trying on an APC wool coat in two sizes too big (wearing Ann Demeulemeester top from the sample sales, Dries van Noten trousers from ditto and IM trainers). Just liked the whole tone on tone thing and I actually have a camel Max Mara coat so absolutely no need for this one. But I do want some camel wool trousers to wear as soon as these get to cold to wear. And possibly some camel boots...

Right Zara, rara, they're evil, yada yada. My presence during the abstention period was innocent, I promise! I was picking up an order for a neighbour who injured herself. But obviously I had to look at red things and grabbed the shorts that were hanging with it as I was in the pope scandalising dress. Like them both, colour of top is a proper red like in the stock image. Size on the top is an S, it's not obvious in the pic but I do need the XS as it was too billowy on the bottom.

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
botemp · 09/08/2018 19:54

Magic shorts have an elasticated waist which may be the secret to their magic. Fabric is a touch see through though so I'm on the fence, but tried it with a white top and thought, hey, I can do this all white thing without being all virgin sacrifice.

Saw they also did the shorts in navy on the way our but sensibly ran for the exit. Did get distracted by suede western inspired boots. Don't know who they had in mind with these though, my calves aren't slim in proportion to me but in comparison to standard calve sizes they're on the slimmest end. These fit with a bit of space, but not much and that slit really didn't give much extra space, perhaps on a longer limb thet would? Anyhow, shoes from Zara and I don't get along so they're only for fitting fun.

When I had to return neighbour's order the next day I saw an older woman wear the the organic cotton Frambooze dress I flagged up here previously, and looking fab in it with a long black cardigan (saw a lot of those in the new collections in Paris, I do quite like them, especially with dresses when they're the same length, does a nice sculpting trick). She carried it with great poise and had come in especially to convince her friend to get one too.

Positive thing I did notice with Zara is that they're a lot more environmentally aware in the new collection. More organic cotton pieces, the leather pieces all seem part of the Join for Life program that uses responsible dyeing processes, recycled fabrics, etc. A huge step up from their previous environmental attempts which was collecting used clothing in store Hmm

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
botemp · 09/08/2018 20:07

Also saw some interesting sculptural type earrings that are all the rage in clip-on versions.

In other news, took delivery of Vagabond Camille trainers that looked vaguely Celine like. They were on offer on Amazon, down to a ridiculously low €30 but they arrived looking a bit questionable as if the previous person wore them out or something. It wasn't really something to get worked up about (white soles no longer immaculate and the leather slightly broken in as it would anyhow) but I did want to make a complaint as they weren't exactly in new condition, at most someone wore them out or indoors for a few hours and I didn't want to get blamed if I did decide to return them. They got back to me within hours on the phone and offered an exchange or a 50% discount. I'd read recently that Amazon also has a huge incineration program for things that are returned to them and I assume these would definitely be earmarked for that Sad I was happy enough to overlook the issue, hadn't been expecting such a substantial discount. So leather trainers from somewhat ethical company that look great under my new Lemaire trousers and are just the right height so I don't need to have them taken in for a measly €15 will probably go down as the bargain of the year.

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
botemp · 09/08/2018 20:09

Extra pic of the trainers, they're a bit dressy and formal at the same time. They'll do really well in my work wardrobe, I haven't tried them with skinnies yet but I like them under wide legs a lot.

This thread is about as French as a Sainsbury's baguette
quirkychick · 09/08/2018 20:13

I think we have a history of protestant/catholic tension in the UK too, but with a slightly different slant. Smile

Love the frambooze dress with the long, cardigan. I love long cardigans come transitional weather, so happy to see that. I think I have a navy one on my autumn clothing gap list too...

quirkychick · 09/08/2018 20:15

Cross-posted, nice trainers.

botemp · 09/08/2018 20:33

Ah yes, but islands make for different tensions. More intrigue involved, or something. I do probably have to thank the French for booting out the Hugenots as they surely livened up the place here. Think we'd be far more Calvinist and serious without them. This is reminding me a bit of Babette's Feast which my mother was absolutely adamant about me watching, wonder if it's on Netflix, I could do with a revisit and the weather's turned very stormy, whole day of neverending rain tomorrow. It's kinda cosy but I'm already missing the summer wardrobe.

botemp · 09/08/2018 20:40

Oh and Danny, sorry meant to mention earlier, I can't remember who the fellow Pilates addict is/was on here but they mentioned at some point it can be really good for post birth bodies, especially with getting expanded ribs back to their former shape, or close to it anyhow. I'd never heard that personally but am a bit advocate of it, and have seen amazing transformations but you do need a good studio for it. I've been doing it 5x a week (at home, I'm experienced enough to go solo) for a few months again because the warmer weather doesn't really incite me with joy at the thought of anything more intense and I sort of forget what continued practice does to the body. I always gain a few cms of length in the spine which makes much more of a difference than you'd expect.

quirkychick · 09/08/2018 20:52

I think France, Netherlands and Britain all have quite a chequered history of Catholicism and Protestantism! So interesting how fashion, style and culture generally is influenced by these underlying values.

botemp · 09/08/2018 21:30

Well as much as I do get the lovely odd compliment out and about, I am also the occasional recipient of absolutely scathing looks from highly conservative protestants visiting from what we call the Dutch Bible belt. The men just have a damning penetrating stare of absolute disgust, the women will occasionally go all GOT shame on you Confused I honestly think they come out especially to tut tut at what they believe to be Sodom and Gomorrah. I take it as a badge of honour whenever it happens, it's their defect, not mine and says absolutely nothing about me or my conduct. I'd hate to think what it would be like if they were in charge.

I think the Netherlands is slightly different as it was a haven for the religiously persecuted for so long and our Royal family is very 'young' and only had a brief period of absolute power. When it was a republic trade was the national religion (not officially, but money talked more than anything) and that period is generally upheld as us at our best, the Dutch East India company, etc. The Protestant/Catholic conflict was more part of being reigned by Spain than an internal religious conflict, it helped fuel the flames but it wasn't necessarily the spark that set it off.

Floisme · 09/08/2018 23:16

Multiple cross posting here but I wrote a long post a few hours ago on my phone and promptly lost it so sorry if I'm now off the pace. Most of my high end buys are second hand so I'm not too worried about spoiling them. But I do try and save up so I can afford at least one new and expensive treat a year. I do think there's a difference. Of course high prices don't always mean higher quality and you can get good stuff at the cheap and cheerful end but what you don't get is consistency, whereas if I find a bit of Margaret Howell or Joseph or Brora I can be pretty confident it''ll wash and wear well and that the fabric will be kind to my ageing body.

Or sometimes you pay more for interesting design rather than quality e.g. I think Whistles is poor for the price but I still like the cut and the way the clothes hang on me, so I used to make allowances until they pissed me off once too often.

Re the ethics, I think supply chains are so labrynthine that I don't think any high street store (or some designers) can really know who makes their clothes. It's partly why I try and buy second hand but then if everyone did that, I wouldn't do half as well out if it. If you're on a low income you do what you have to do and I'm in no position to preach as I still enjoy a sneaky bit of fast fashion because it helps keep a look modern.

But I don't believe in is 'investment shopping'. I've had some of my clothes for years or even decades but I'm still not good at predicting cost per wear. Fashion changes and your body, your tastes and your lifestyle all change too. And I'm far too fickle to have a signature style. So my only stipulation is that I love it and want to wear it every day when I buy it.

Right now I'll go back and catch up.

quirkychick · 10/08/2018 07:53

Oh, bo, that streak of puritanism can certainly be seen here, not sure if it's particularly associated with religion anymore. The British are notoriously uptight about their bodies and sex (with the obvious backlash that involves), I'm quite glad my parents brought us up to be very open minded but I think that's probably unusual and sometimes viewed with suspicion by others.

flo I also buy most of my higher end stuff secondhand or from tkmaxx. I hope that buying less stuff generally is more ethical too. I have a few cheaper items of clothes that have lasted a surprising amount of time, it might be things were better made then, or just a fluke. One that comes to mind is a dark brown, gathered sleeveless top that I bought in the 90s from Asda of all places, comes out each summer and washes like a dream.

botemp · 10/08/2018 08:11

I've always wondered what the infamous British prudishness was based on, as you say it's not completely tied into religion. There's also still a lot of segregation based on sex from early life, I've always wondered if that was tied into it or if that is just one way it's maintained.

ibuiltahomeforyou · 10/08/2018 08:25

Hi all, long time lurker here.

I'm in France at the moment and can go to a pharmacy today - does anyone have recommendations for some nice beauty products/makeup to choose?

botemp · 10/08/2018 08:40

Hi ibuilt, as visible on the skincare threads, I'm a massive skincare nerd so find it really hard to do off the cuff recommended products for everyone as it's so individual. The best general one I can come up with is that I like the Rene Furterer dry shampoo. Don't think there's much makeup in pharmacies, except dermatological brands doing sensitive skin/eyes products which are probably only of interest if you have such issues.

botemp · 10/08/2018 08:49

Just reminded of it over on the skincare thread, ibuilt, Vichy Mineral 89 is a hydrating serum that's probably one that is unlikely to do any harm to most and leaves skin soft and plump, provided you're in the market for a hydrating serum.

ibuiltahomeforyou · 10/08/2018 09:09

Thank you @botemp! Where would be best for makeup? A department store?

I'll pick up some serum and dry shampoo. I have good skin except for the horsefly bites this week but am mid 30s with a young DD so plumping and rejuvenating are always helpful!

peonylover22 · 10/08/2018 09:14

I am a fellow pilates addict! So good for you. I did it throughout pregnancy #1 and only had less than a finger’s width separation at my 6 week post partum check. Definitely recommend it. My favourite is reformer pilates as you can really work the arms and back which tends not to be the case in the mat based pilates classes I have attended.
Like the white shorts Bo, I’d be returning to get them...
Thanks for the Envie recommendation. I’d discovered them last time and had a pretty autumn brocade skirt but I quickly got too fat for it Blush I gave it away but now wish I’d kept it as the weight gain is going much better this time round.
Have had a maternity clothes brainwave! My go-to A/W outfit is a cord or wool or tweed skirt, opaque tights, boots plus some sort of knitwear. I’ve bought a couple of skirts in a size up from eBay and have found an online tailor who does maternity alterations so they will cut a panel out of the front of the skirt and replace it with a stretchy panel. Not v expensive compared to cost of new skirt, sustainable and hopefully will enable me to wear more interesting outfits this autumn.

botemp · 10/08/2018 09:17

Sephora has a lot of choices you may or may not have easy access to in the UK (depends if you have easy access to central London or not basically). Sephora is in a lot of places, just check:

m.sephora.fr/index.html#!store/locator/

for the nearest one. Apparently their own brand liquid lipstick is highly rated, never tried it myself. I always like browsing the aisle of temptation near the cash register where they have travel and trial sizes of lots of products. It's a true test of restraint Wink

botemp · 10/08/2018 09:29

I know magic shorts are great but I'm supposed to be on a fast fashion abstention for at least another month... Unless someone is a climate change expert and will confirm all the slow news inspired reports that all summers from now on will be like this one, I think I need to stand firm or find a loophole.

Yes, love the reformer sessions infinitely more, peony, but they're so expensive here, so I only do one or two a week max. Financially it would make more sense to just buy a reformer at this point, it would pay for itself scarily quick. I'd love to get into the Cadillac a bit more, but I can only do that as a private session and I'm really not prepared to be paying those prices on a regular basis on top of everything else. I do a lot of matwork with weights, balls, resistance bands, etc. at home to get more than just the core involved. Hate that Pilates circle thing though, that can bugger off.

Brilliant news on the tailor, so do you just send it somewhere and it gets delivered back home? Sounds like a great service.

ToElleWithIt · 10/08/2018 12:14

Peony what a brilliant service- that’s inspired!

On the topic of those nursing vests, Primark do them now, the exact same as the very pricey Hot Milk one I got first time round (I always gag at the name of that brand) for a fraction of the cost. The fabric of both means they’re better suited for winter, but agree that they’re so handy.

On buying expensive clothes:

For the look – Yes sometimes the high street does good copies of certain looks and some styles lend themselves more to being copied at a cheap price point that others, but for certain items the high street can IMO only offer flimsy imitation. I’m thinking of some of the saturated silk print dresses I own, with beautifully aligned patterns. The closet thing I see on the high street – inevitably polyester (even at high-end high street) just doesn’t come close. In a similar vein, embellishments often fall short when they get translated to the high street with skimpy application meaning you just don’t get the sumptuous look of a designer piece.

For the quality – This is definitely not a given. I’ve clicked into lots of thins lately and been surprised at the fabric / price combination – I’m looking at you Proenza Shouler. I’m also really disappointed in the way the quality has declined in the diffusion lines. I have several old pieces from D&G or McQ that are lovely quality, but lately I feel like their offerings are much more akin to what you’d find on the high street in terms of fabric / construction which is a real shame because they used to provide a real bridge. So yes, quality is not a given and you can find quality on the high street. When you get it it’s great though – good lining fabric which makes the garment hang properly and generous seems to allow alteration. Trousers come long or unhemmed which is brilliant for me as a tall person. Some jackets have weighted chains sewn into to the hem which makes them hang beautifully. Bra catcher clips, spare buttons, proper pockets…

For the convenience – This is probably a big one for me. You can definitely find fabulous items on the high-street or second-hand, but you need time. Time to browse, time to try, time to alter. I am very time poor at the moment, so if I need work trousers I could try to find a spare 2/3 hour to browse in town at the weekend (unlikely) or I could order a pair or two from a brand I know online. I know if I buy from somewhere like Max Mara there is a high chance, provided I pay attention to the online description, that the trousers will be suitable. Of course there are occasional duds, but my hit ratio is much, much higher. Playing into the convenience is consistent sizing. I find I’m the same size in most designer brands and sites like NAP give excellent fit advice so I rarely have to return based on wrong size. This fit may be off, but the sizing rarely is. Ordering online from H&M is another matter. Returns are generally much easier from designer sites, just arrange collection, no need to go to the post office.

For social / environmental reasons – As discussed extensively. I’m trying to better where I can in terms of plastics at home and sustainability extends to clothes too. I do like that most garments are manufactured in the EU guaranteeing reasonable worker conditions, but I worry about protectionism too.

Because it’s expected – tricky one this. In my work it’s definitely expected that you present a certain appearance at certain times, no labels on show or anything brash like that. A canny shopper could definitely achieve the look from the high-street / second hand, but it’s tricky. Cheap shoes mostly look like cheap shoes and polyester trousers probably won’t cut it. That said, there are definitely things out there that are moderately priced that look “more than their money”. They’re the real gems. Cos is good for that.

And lastly because I can afford to – I say that only because I think sometimes there’s a lot of rhetoric about it being “worth it” and an investment and it rarely is. It’s not worth stretching yourself over and if it’s a choice between travel or a designer item, choose travel. I don’t like to think of people getting into debt over it.

Some of my most work pieces are high-street though – some old H&M, one M&S Autograph dress – before that range went to shite.

botemp I like those shorts, perfect length and what a bargain on the shoes! Where do you get the nip stickies from please? I should try them with camis.

Growing up between Ireland and Glasgow I have had a rather hmmmm intense experience of Catholicism and Protestantism with not a small amount if violence thrown in too.