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🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Hairmageddon looms...

991 replies

botemp · 20/02/2018 11:00

Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3 Thread 4 Thread 5 Thread 6 Thread 7 Thread 8 Thread 9 Thread 10
Thread 11

For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

NEWish since previous threads:

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

FEBRUARY 2018: The month of February sucks. Period. We’re sick of winter and the state of our finances, some are embracing frugality (in different shapes and forms) but water bills and car maintenance are ruining our buzz. Hair appointments need to be made despite the palpitations of fear that the mere thought incites. Oh, and skin texture. As you were...

OP posts:
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botemp · 14/03/2018 11:07

JDSTER, your package arrived in the nick of time, thank you Flowers

The poor kangaroos, we have quite the menagerie here already, I'm sure they'll fit right in with the snails, sheep, and lion (who have I forgotten Blush?) Sallie, I used to suggest the UB CO, with reservation, to those who wanted something easily picked up in Boots but these days I tend to steer those requests to the Simple Cleansing Oil as it has a good INCI (just never used it myself).

Sophie, I have a Retinoids info sheet in the works, I just halted on it as there was suddenly a surge of interest in it because of that terribly misinforming BBC programme and I feared having it in the OP would add further to the misconceptions as it was highly likely that would be all that was read.

Anyhow, there are a few more forms than you listed, they vary mostly with how sensitising they are and how many steps are required to transform it into retinoic acid.

The percentages are even more confusing, partially it's because if they gave it all way they are essentially giving away their formula. The other aspect is that most cosmetic companies are sold to (and equally subject to questionable marketing) and often buy something in a solution, so the exact % is almost impossible to tell. Just read this thread on the SA Reddit and heave a big confused sigh.

Hydroxypinacolone Retinoate (HPR) is the one used in TO and a great many other products. It appears to be heavily marketed towards cosmetic companies, all research comes from the manufacturer so that is a touch suspect (though R-R has the same issue) in a sense and even in its own marketing material it suggests formulating it with other anti-acne ingredients for it to actually have effect for acne. The first hyped product with HPR was probably Sunday Riley Luna, which was a complete dud for many, required very specific use and only had a small group of people actually see good results. Its main selling point seems to be resurfacing mostly (very little, if any, anti-ageing is mentioned in the manufacturer's info), which makes it not too dissimilar to an acid toner.

Squalane is indeed highly occlusive (not far from Mineral Oil on the TEWL scale) so in that sense, it could be less helpful since you also have issues with MO, most likely on account of its occlusive character rather than the ingredient itself.

I was rereading this post on Retinyl Retinoate, bookmarked from back when I was researching the Verso and I noticed that this ingredient specifically boosts HAS2 (the enzyme that synthesises hyaluronic acid) which could explain my quick results with the Medik8 as my dehydration is more a genetic predisposition than the result of product abuse/ageing/etc. and would also explain the feeling that I felt that TO was making my dehydration worse.

This guide is also a good overview.

Sallie, are you using the extra strength BHA from PC? That one would definitely be a mismatch with Differin as that would dry you out further. Often BHA is recommended to use (usually as a cleanser in the AM) with prescription retinoids to help soothe the inflammation, so they're not mutually exclusive by default but if there's no specific need for it then I wouldn't bother using it.

Sophie, yes on alternate nights I use the Verso Eye Serum and Medik8 together (on separate areas, obvs) although the Medik8 marketing is a bit odd as they highlight improved crow's feet area in before and after shots which suggests you could use it in the eye area and it doesn't explicitly say not to not use it on the eye area either, so I assume they just haven't made the investment to test it (or are doing so and will then probably sell it as a seperate product at some point).

In terms of what retinoid to pick, it depends where you are at. I wouldn't recommend someone with advanced signs of ageing and little to no sensitivities to bother with OTC retinoids if they wish to see results anytime soon. 30s-40s preventative use will have different needs to someone who also has acne, rosacea, etc. General guide is try the strongest you think you'll be able to tolerate, impending summer is something to take into account, a synthetic retinoid makes more sense as they make you less sun sensitive. So perhaps try an encapsulated retinol, HPR and similar, I don't know if I'd jump in with R-R (though I did, and I do regret ever bothering with anything else tbh) unless your skin sensitivity would make that the most likely only candidate.

mint, I'm pretty useless with hair products, I tend to cling on to whatever works and then despair when it stops working for me (currently in such a crisis). I've attempted to understand the boggling science behind it all but it's a lot tougher to tackle than skincare, I use SLS-free by default as that just works better for me, but I don't mind some sulphates in it, just not SLS and I'm not a huge fan of SLES either. Using conditioner on the roots strikes me as odd though, that would leave me with very dirty looking hair very quickly and I'd only be able to use 'light' conditioners as a result that then don't really tackle the continual dryness. Can you tolerate fragrance in shampoos and conditioners? I sampled the Kiehl's Damage Repairing & Hydrating Shampoo & Conditioner which wasn't terrible for that type of shampoo (I usually end up looking like a poodle with those), it's not the 'perfect' combo for me to use long term but it did do a good job of holding on to moisture and water and not turning it into a dry frizz ball.

OP posts:
MustBeThin · 14/03/2018 11:28

Hello ingredient experts! I just bought my first cerave hydrating cleanser from boots. I thought I'd post a pic of the ingredients from both bottles that I have (one is from amazon) the ingredients seem to be in different orders n whatnot. Does the boots one look a bit rubbish compared to the other? I'm no expert when it comes to this stuff.
The picture in the left is the boots one and the pic on the right is the one I've been buying from Amazon.

🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Hairmageddon looms...
🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Hairmageddon looms...
MustBeThin · 14/03/2018 11:30

The ingredients from the moisturising lotion! I've never bought this before so have nothing to compare it too. Smile

🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Hairmageddon looms...
BagelGoesWalking · 14/03/2018 12:15

Re the hydrating Cleanser, the ceramides are further down the list on the Boots one. Instead of Hyaluronic Acid, they've put sodium hyaluronate and it's also further down the list. All the good stuff, which is very annoying if it actually means there is less of those ingredients in the product. However, it could mean that it's not necessary to list them in decreasing quantity order for the EU market, but has to be for the US market. Does anyone know?

MustBeThin · 14/03/2018 12:34

Thanks Bagel I also thought that the ingredients were supposed to be listed in quantity order, so it was better if the good ingredients were listed further up the list than at the bottom.

I've sent them a message on FB with the pics so I'll let you know what they say if they ever get back to me. Smile

Tsmummy08 · 14/03/2018 12:42

Sallie re. retin-A and acid usage, like Miffy I was using Retirides 0.05% and BR P50 alternate nights but have reduced the acid usage to once weekly as I think it was too much for my (very dry) skin over the winter. I'd rather maintain retin-A frequency over an acid, as like the others have mentioned previously, consistency is important.

mintmagnummm · 14/03/2018 12:57

My skin really isn't good today! No idea why but I have breakouts, blackheads and congestion!

SophieLion · 14/03/2018 12:58

Bo - you are a Star Thank you Flowers

Well, oh dear, I was one of those people who watched the "terribly misinforming BBC programme" and became interested in retinoids as a result BlushBlush

I actually did a lot more reading on this yesterday evening (feel like I'm studying! Any uni degrees in retinoids/skincare?! Grin)

Am I correct from one of your previous responses to me that the conversion process itself into retinoic acid (from retinol) also causes irritation to the skin? So it's a double irritation with OTC retinol: the conversion one plus the retinoic acid one? But overall probably as lower level of irritation than applying prescription retinoic acid? Couldn't find about irritation from the conversion online.

Hhhhhmmm I also think my dehydration is more a genetic predisposition than ageing etc but the wrong products definitely make it worse - I can see it is less dehydrated now with the Toleriane cleanser and probably the HA serum is helping.

As to what to retinoid would be best for me, well I won't be using the TO squalene one again (might give to a friend here to try - at least it wasn't expensive). I don't have advanced signs of ageing so it is more preventative (but I do have some fine lines). Definitely sensitive skin!!

I am reluctant to try a TO product again. Nor do I want to go for a prescription one yet. This leaves me with things like:

Skinceuticals (encapsulated retinol) but harsh side effects

PC (again encapsulated retinol and irritating)

Medik8 3TR (encapsulated retinol again but not as irritating as the 2 above)

Indeed Labs. - HPR plus retinol. Is anyone using this? I remember seeing posts about it but can't remember who......

Medik8 R-retinoate - I read your review v carefully. Am tempted to copy as the phrase "botox in a bottle" (or whatever your exact words were) were a real seller for me.

Couple of Face Theory ones with retinyl palmitate

Finally Bo, why do you say perhaps not to jump in with the Medik8 retinoate but then mention you regret bothering with others?

I will read through those links you sent to. I really appreciate the time and trouble you are taking to help me out.

SophieLion · 14/03/2018 13:11

Also.... how do all of you select the products to buy for your skincare? Seems to be hundreds of types and brands - it's a real minefield for me.

It is just price, your skin type, personal recommendations, online reviews, You Tube videos etc and then "randomly" picking one from a (small) selection you've made?

And how often do you think you end up with something that irritates or doesn't seem to do anything compared to getting a "goodie"?

JDSTER · 14/03/2018 13:18

sophie for what it’s worth, if I was you, I’d try the medik 8 3TR first. Not too expensive and good reviews (have you looked at medik 8 website?) I’ve heard PC one is very irritating so I’d steer clear. I know Dr Sam has a video where she’s doing a nighttime routine with medik 8 retinol (an older video so not the new retinoate) and it’s a brand of retinol she recommends consistently. You could always upgrade to retinoate later.

Bo delighted parcel arrived in the nick of time Smile

Lonesurvivor · 14/03/2018 13:19

salli I'm going to try your tip of straightening first then tongs. I've wavy hair which I let dry naturally the other day and then used a thick barrel tongs to do a few yarns but ended up with a huge head of hair.

I've so many hair care products, have been on the search for the holy Grail of hair care for years. I've silly shiny hair that gets greasy quickly so product usually weighs it down and dulls it.
I've actually found the Aussie beach mate/winter miracle the best for me and it's not too €€€. Steam pod keratin serum is the only heat defence/style creme is amazing and a little nuxe oil on the ends after styling.
My head is always turned by the latest new product and I'm delighted to say so far this year I've stayed strong and ignored all the pretty packaging and promises.
I got a little pot of Christope Robin volume paste shampoo last year in a beauty box and found it good so when I use up some of the stuff I have I'll treat myself it's €€€ but works well for volume on roots which I always struggle with myself.

JDSTER · 14/03/2018 13:27

Ooh, more questions from Sophie Grin
In my life time I’ve been through thousands of beauty products. Thanks to this thread I now assess what it is I want from my skincare, rather than jumping on the bandwagon with the next new thing.

There’s been a lot of recommendations on here and I know who has similar skin to me. A lot of brands I just wouldn’t touch with a barge pole now. In my drawers/cupboards currently I’ve got a lot of TO, which I’m using up and not going to repurchase for various reasons but predominantly because none of them have wowed me or even mildly impressed me to be honest.

JDSTER · 14/03/2018 13:31

I was in Aldi today. My goodness they have dupes for everything. Jo Malone, Elizabeth Arden 8 hour cream, M&S sleeping cream, nip and fab glycolic pads, La Prarie, even looked like a glam glow mask on the shelves. I didn’t buy any, I hasten to add.

EnidButton · 14/03/2018 14:26

Lone The CR shampoo sounds very good. Wish it wasn't so £££. I just use Morrocan oil on my ends for the same reason as you. Love the smell of nuxe.

Sophie Will have to have a think about that one. But these threads have helped me enormously in that I slowed down how quickly I was trying new products so I could really observe how my skin reacted and narrow down what was beneficial or otherwise. Before that I was waging a bit of a war on my skin which was pissing it off making it worse. Once I realised I had dehydrated sensitive skin, that was a turning point. So mainly from these threads, some online reviews and my own knowledge about how my skin reacts to certain ingredients. Lots of combing through the backs of products for ingredients whilst stood in Boots!

EnidButton · 14/03/2018 14:30

I think it helps to narrow down what you want from skincare, how you want your skin to be. Then you're focusing your search rather than looking at everything all at once. If that makes sense? Made more sense in my head...

SophieLion · 14/03/2018 14:35

Hi guys, sorry for all the questions Blush my DCs are exactly the same with the questions.....

I will read those last few posts properly (dashing out with DCs) but JDSTER: great minds think alike Wink Was just reading Bo's links (highly recommend - very informative) and the PC's website and ruled out all the PC ones as too strong and was thinking to go for the Medik8 3TR as lower % plus price isn't too bad.

botemp · 14/03/2018 14:38

Must, I don't think the INCI is probably that different in the cleansers. It's just that the EU version has different preservatives. Much as people hate parabens they are more effective as they're both anti-fungal and antimicrobials. If you're swapping them out for other preservatives you usually need more of them and in higher concentration (therefore further up the INCI). The order of an INCI is pretty much the same in Northern America, the EU, and Japan. S. Korea doesn't have stringent rules and can pretty much put any order they want (though they are better at it these days). As for the low concentration of the 'good stuff', I wouldn't worry in the cleanser, those ingredients were hardly going to do much in higher concentrations as it's all washed off in under a minute. Some INCI names are different in the US and EU, HA is always listed as Sodium Hyaluronate in the EU.

Sophie, don't worry it's not the people who watched it but the programme itself that annoyed me. There was a lot of misinformation and poorly represented 'facts' on there.

Yes, the conversion process can be irritating as well, but the overall lessening of irritation in comparison to tretinoin has more to do with low concentrations rather than it being a less irritating ingredient as at the end of the conversion it is the same ingredient, just the concentration is different.

With the dehydration, it's interesting because little touches mine and retroactively I can estimate I've had it from my early twenties, possibly earlier, so it's definitely not age-related. Vitamin C was the first thing that helped but more from a perspective that it helped protect from further damage. Applying HA topically helps replenish depleted supplies but it doesn't really do much for it long term. Most retinoid will stimulate some sort of HA and collagen production but it was news to me (or forgotten) that R-R worked so specifically so it's a nice bonus and explains my suddenly plumper skin and diminished pores (since skin is not retracted they appear smaller). I didn't call it botox in a bottle though! At this point, I would attribute most of the positive and swift effects with regards to tone and texture to tackling stubborn dehydration and the pigmentation could be down to the retinol but it may very well be the Vit C (Tetra) or a combination thereof.

In general, for brands, the simpler stuff is Pharmacy brands (French, Eucerin, etc. Kiehl's and Malin + Goetz if you want something a bit less basic feeling) then I look at the Cosmeceutical brands with a good reputation for the more active stuf. Not every product will be great but, generally, their best products are renowned, it's usually the price point that's the sticking point. Small indy brands can help cost save but there's often a compromise somewhere and sometimes the high end stuff works out better cost wise per use.

It's interesting you mention brands though as they can be quite telling, so brands that have largely bought into HPR initially were, Dermalogica, Philosophy, Sunday Riley, Peter Thomas Roth, etc. The upper end of the high street if you will, generally overpriced for what you're getting but it looks 'official' and almost medical but it isn't really. Then it trickled down into cheaper and cheaper lines and smaller brands.

R-R was exclusive to Verso for a couple of years, it's still pretty much all they sell. Medik8 has it for a little under 2yrs I believe so that keeps prices inflated. Also of odd interest, Paula's Choice Beautypedia section (that's the encyclopedia part of the site where the brand emerged from) lists R-R as a 'Best' ingredients (they're rarely that generous, especially on something relatively new and a single source of studies) but they don't even list Hydroxypinacolone retinoate when it's a pretty widespread ingredient now and I'm sure they've reviewed several products with it at this point. I'm guessing PC will come out with an R-R product at some point and their complete disinterest in HPR is somewhat telling too.

Also like JDSTER says there are so many brands I ignore, it makes choosing things so much simpler.

OP posts:
mintmagnummm · 14/03/2018 14:39

I'm getting jealous about all this medik8 talk! I want some!! But I'm not allowed....am i bo?? 🤔😜

JDSTER · 14/03/2018 14:40

sophie the questions are good. I ask loads too Grin.

mintmagnummm · 14/03/2018 14:42

NOTHING touches my dehydration in my skin either bo! Am currently sporting lots of congestion and breakouts again for no apparent reason!

mintmagnummm · 14/03/2018 17:53

What does it mean when it takes ages for skin to absorb anything?

SophieLion · 14/03/2018 18:59

Thanks for the responses Bo, JDSTER and Enid. If you think I ask a lot of questions then you should see all the notes I'm making Grin Fascinating stuff.

JDSTER - that seems like sensible advice. I will have a look for the Dr Sam video. Bo had also suggested an encapsulated retinol (which the 3TR is) or HPR.

However...the Medik8 3TR ingredients are Simmondsia Chinensis Oil, Cyclopentasiloxane, Cyclohexasiloxane, Tocopherol Acetate, Retinol, Polysorbate 20, BHT, BHA.

I think that Simmondsia Chinensis oil is jojoba seed oil and I'm worried it is occlusive and might block my pores too. I've been reading a bit on the internet but I'm not quite sure.....

Opps Bo - Someone else must have said "botox in a bottle" or perhaps I read it somewhere or perhaps I just made it up then! Very interesting what you wrote about R-R. I read about the Korean study in one of your links too.

SallieSallow · 14/03/2018 19:02

Bo yes I was using PC extra strength. I'm going to ditch it - may use once a week in the morning or get a BHA cleanser for morning use instead, but will wait till I actually need a new morning cleanser.

I've been looking out for the kangaroo skincare advert again and haven't seen it, maybe I was hallucinating Shock

I was in Boots at the weekend and there wasn't a sniff of any cerave products. I want to get the hydrating cleanser for a second night time cleanse as think the foaming one will be drying used in combo with differin/retinol.

Mint I use Eucerin shampoo but I think you've tried that and not liked it? I don't use the conditioner on my scalp as it gets too easily irritated, I use the Eucerin scalp tonic. My hair is very long and thick so the weight tends to pull the top of it down and stop it pouffing, I just rub a drop of argan oil into my palms and then lightly smooth over dry hair to keep the fuzzies near my scalp under control.

Which brings me to another question, what are your opinions on very long hair on older women? I am late 40s with waist length hair though will be getting it cut up to bra strap length soon, but I can't go shorter than that as it pouffs/frizzes up and I get triangle head. Layers make it frizzier too as does too frequent washing and heat styling. I wear it up mainly which I'm fine with as have no desire to faff with it on a daily basis, and I'm not bothered about having a particular style but I'm just wondering if I'm being judged or mocked out and about as an older person with very long hair.

SallieSallow · 14/03/2018 19:09

Enid sorry meant to reply about the jade roller. I really like using it in the evening as it's relaxing, I think it does ease tension round my jaw and seems to help my sinuses too which are still congested after the recent lurgy. I haven't used it in the morning yet but sounds like a good idea, I have a puffy face in the morning too & think it will be nice and cooling especially round the eyes.

EnidButton · 14/03/2018 19:22

Sallie If it's in good condition then I see no reason why someone should get their hair cut short/shorter just because of their age. Back in the day a woman hit 40 and it was straight to the salon for a short perm. It's not like that now thank goodness.
There's a woman lives near me with bra strap length grey hair. Think she has layers in it and it's slightly curly. Probably in her late 50's. She looks so so cool. I want to be her when I grow up.

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