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Skincare Ingredients

999 replies

Pupsiecola · 18/10/2016 16:08

Following on from the skincare routines post, what ingredients do you make sure you include in your products, for example, Vit C, Vit E, Hyaluronic acid?

TIA

OP posts:
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yongnian · 20/10/2016 09:04

Let us know how you get on with the LRP niacinamide pupsie it's also on my list...niacinamide in general I mean....
Oo this thread is great.
Next question - which physical sunblock does anyone recommend? Having processed botemps info about it further up.
Re squalene, have used it in something and liked but can't think what....will trawl memory banks...
And any recommendations for random itchy patches on face..... ? Reactive, I think...but usually in the same place...GP wasn't sure whether it was linked to rosacea or whether it was sebborrhoic dermatitis...neither the rosex or clotrimazole have helped this.
A cicaplast type cream can sometimes help but it's only soothing it rather than anything else.
Can't work out triggers...have had eczema on body in the past but never face.
Sorry, didn't mean to ask for a diagnosis, just thought maybe someone might use something useful for similar issues?

Pupsiecola · 20/10/2016 09:26

I will do. I've been using this for a couple of months and I really like it. Dr. Sam Bunting highly recommends it. I don't like heavy coverage. I've been using this on it's own up until now.

I've just bought the cicaplast SPF50 for use as a hand cream.

Skincare Ingredients
OP posts:
botemp · 20/10/2016 09:59

Yes, the (North) Americans are generally pretty useless when it comes to sunscreen due to their extremely stringent regulations on the types of filters allowed (and the cost for manufacturer's to get others legalised is astronomical) so they tend to excel at the Mineral (physical) sunscreens by dermaceutical companies (like Obagi). Skinceuticals do a very nice one for sensitive skin, the Sheer Mineral UV Defense SPF 50, Elta MD UV Clear Sunscreen SPF 46 is also good, the Neostrata pictured above is also highly regarded. They're all very expensive unfortunately and if you use the appropriate amount daily it tends to go quite quick.

Let me think on that Cockblocktopus, I'll get back to you on what specifically later. I'd be inclined to use one of the mineral ss above as all Japanese ss are PA++++ rated ie. have a PPD rating of 16+, but exactly what range it is, is vague (Bioderma SPF30 for comparison is something like PPD27) and I'd want the highest possible broad spectrum coverage possible in a place like AU, less so for vanity and more for risk of skin cancer. I'm sure there are some Japanese SPF choices that would work well for everyday use with limited-medium sun exposure (albeit a strong one) that are cosmetically elegant and more affordable than the American dermaceutical choices (I'm assuming they're even more expensive in AU).

Cockblocktopus · 20/10/2016 10:58

You're a gem Bo thank you Flowers

The obagi one is $80 here and I do use the full tea spoon. I do rate it highly from a usability point of view (I love that it doesn't give that horrible sun screen greasy shine) but if there is a better product I would use it.

I've been in Aus 4 years now and the sun damage from the first 2 years (when I wasn't careful enough) shocked me. It's absolutely aged me. I'm also happy to spend mone on this, prevention being cheaper than cure - especially with skin cancer.

Nabootique · 20/10/2016 13:27

I haven't personally used LRP Toleriane Ultra myself but I know a fellow skincare nerd on here that speaks highly of it.

Are you talking about me, botemp? Wink I love the Toleraine Fluide. Favourite moisturiser ever.

This is a great thread. I hope it gets lots of reads. I didn't comment before as I didn't have anything to add to what botemp had already said, but I have been reading.

The thing that worries me about products like The Ordinary coming out - the intention behind them keeping their product names confusing (or sciency, if you will) was that people would HAVE to learn about the ingredients to find out what they needed and what works for them. I think this has backfired in some cases as I am seeing forums and blogs peppered with people so elated at the price and buzzwords that they are throwing it all on their face without reading up on it first. Typically with more expensive products, which have previous been the more "active" kind, people will read up before making the investment, at least in my experience, whereas they might not put the same effort into a budget purchase. In the past it would have been less of an issue as they weren't so "active", so not much harm done to the face or the purse strings. As budget skincare comes on it terms of ingredients, the same research needs to be applied.

Just my two pence on the subject!

Pupsiecola · 20/10/2016 14:00

Good point there naboot. And it's made me think of another question (sorry!). Any products that shouldn't be used together, or benefit from being used one after the other?

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ImYourWomanJonSnow · 20/10/2016 14:07

And what about ingredients to avoid/are told to avoid?
Parabens get a lot of bad press for example.
Silicones are confusing, Beautypedia for example will rubbish certain products for being silicone based but will give top star reviews for some silicone based makeup.
And finally alcohol: I was just about to buy a sunscreen but alcohol was third ingredient listed, which made me feel nervous. Same for a recent BB cream almost-purchase that had high alcohol content. I am so confused...

Pupsiecola · 20/10/2016 14:20

Me too jon. I'm find this thread so helpful though and it's made me realise that I've bought stuff in the past without really dialling in on what my skin needs. I'm so grateful!

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Nabootique · 20/10/2016 15:16

This gives some guidelines, although in the case of AHA and retinoids I believe you can use them together but leave a gap (around half an hour, I think). A lot of articles give advice on this kind of thing, and they tend to say things like don't match AHA and vitamin C, but the only reason they mention that is due to potential irritation, if you were sensitive or using particularly strong products. The last point in the post that I've linked to is spot on, in my opinion.

A water based moisturiser after a hyaluronic acid serum is a really good duo for dehydration, as the serum will boost the effects of the moisturiser.

Jon Everyone will have different opinions on this, but for what it's worth, I don't personally have an issue with parabens or silicones, although I will avoid multi-layering silicones due to balling, and unless it's a very water heavy moisturiser that needs silicone to be occlusive, then I avoid products where it is the second or third ingredient, and it just seems like a filler/artificial smoothing agent (this is why it is so prevalent in make up primers). They aren't "bad" though, in my opinion, although some will have sensitivity to some.

I avoid alcohol as much as possible, just because it can be drying and if I can find a product without it then I think I'd rather go with that. The exception is acid toners for me, where it is used as a preservative, but having said that, there are good acid toners without it (P50 that botemp mentions is alcohol free, using vinegar as the preservative instead, I believe).

I don't actively avoid fragrance, but again, if I can find something that works without it, I'd rather have that. I'd prefer companies to spend the money and the space within the product on quality ingredients rather than fragrance.

The only things I can think of that I really avoid are mineral oil and shea butter in anything except cleansers. As I'm just washing a cleanser off I don't mind too much, but for a leave on product, I am prone to congestion and have suffered with acne and both of those ingredients can (although the opinion on mineral oil is divided) clog pores, and they feel too heavy for me.

Nabootique · 20/10/2016 15:20

Oh, and if I am suffering any redness, which I usually do around this time of year due to the indoor/outdoor temperature differences, I will definitely avoid fragrance and any stronger essential oils, i.e. rosemary, clove, balsam, eucalyptus.

botemp · 20/10/2016 16:41

Well unless you object to the term 'skincare nerd' Nabootique, ehm yes Grin.

I agree absolutely wrt to The Ordinary, their affordability is a bit of a curse and blessing in one. I think another part of the problem is that The Ordinary is not a traditional range in the sense that you can buy your entire routine there but that's how most will try to understand it. I know there was a dedicated thread on here where the OP gave up after a week of exclusive use of The Ordinary since it didn't seem to do anything and I think that won't be a too uncommon practice in this initial boom period. I don't mean to pick on that poster specifically but it did show the lack of research that comes with those products and how it should fit in with a routine and what reasonable expectations are.

Any products that shouldn't be used together, or benefit from being used one after the other?

The reason why I like Vit C so much is because it's a great support player, it makes both Retinol and SPF more effective alongside its own benefits to the skin.

There is also a general benefit to use your most active products first according to pH level and consistency. Order would be: Cleanser - Vit C - Acids (BHA before AHA if using both) - Serum - Moisturiser - SPF

There's a few popular myths, Vitamin C and Niacinamide can cause flushing and that Vitamin C and Sodium Benzoate (a quite common preservative) form cancerous Benzene.

Now most of these internet myths originate from studies where it does prove this to be the case but it is usually at quite specific conditions to cause these reactions. The thing is we don't always know the concentrations, the conditions, the pH, etc. but anything potentially hazardous (like Retinol during pregnancy) or non compatible (The Ordinary does advice not to use their Vit C and Nia together) would be disclosed by companies to cover themselves legally. So while caution is warranted, especially if you prefer to err on the side of safety (I don't like to mix my current Vit C and anything with S.B. since I'm unsure of the exact concentration of VitC) these tend to be internet gathered knowledge rather than scientific fact.

There is also the myth to wait between your actives (20 mins) to allow your skin to readjust itself pH wise. Which means if you're using Vit C, BHA, and AHA you'd be sitting there waiting an hour before you even get to the serum stage unless you use a pH adjusting toner in between each step. Paula's Choice clearly states on her website that her acids are formulated to be used without waiting time and most manufacturers will tell you the same. I've seen no difference between waiting and not when I foolishly attempted it for a week.

A lot of these myths tend to originate from people getting wrought up in scientific papers online and drawing their own conclusions and applying them haphazardly elsewhere without even a degree in anything scientific. The same can be said for parabens, alcohol in skincare, mineral oil, and to a certain extent silicones.

What else do these things have in common beyond demonisation on the basis of circumstantial evidence? They're used mostly in simpler (ie. affordable) formulations. I will happily discriminate against a £££ product when the second ingredient is mineral oil as it simply can't ever justify its price unless the first ingredient is pure gold or uses parabens as their preservatives when they can clearly afford to spend money on an equally safe preservative with a superior cosmetic elegance.

The biggest problem with demonising these ingredients is that the alternatives used are actually unsafer or more harmful, this is especially the case with parabens. Everyone knows how to look out for them but has no understanding of the alternatives, or even worse the complete lack of preservatives causing people to use contaminated products with terrible repercussions.

The case against alcohol is mainly based on studies pertaining to tissue damage on internal organs. I'm personally not a fan of denatured alcohol (no one seems to discriminate against the fatty alcohols like cetyl, stearyl, and cetearyl) as it can be drying but it has its place in formulations, specifically in sunscreens. It helps penetrate the active ingredients much quicker and more effectively and mostly evaporates during the process.

I don't like the feel of silicones personally, and the fact that it can make your skin feel and look better than it actually is. So while your face doesn't appear to be as dry as it was, the condition isn't actually improving. There's also some environmental consequences that make me question the prolific use somewhat. Dimethicone seems to be the most common and actually least problematic whilst others seem to trigger and some have been disallowed for use in the EU. They are however great stabilisers for formulations and non toxic so have their place. My biggest issue with silicones is that if you use several thin layers of different products with silicones in them, they tend to ball up with all the rubbing, often ruining your makeup and possibly compromising your sunscreen protection in the process. So anything with silicones will be towards the very end or last step of my routine, so usually SPF and makeup.

Fragrance is an annoying one, I can go either way with it but is often irritating. The frustrating thing is that a fragrance is protected and its INCI is not required to be disclosed. A manufacturer can therefore hide a myriad of things including possible irritants in there and make dishonest claims, eg. parabens or alcohol within the fragrance and still claim the product is free of it.

So in short, unless you find one of those 'controversial' ingredients to be clogging, irritating, causing an allergic reaction, etc. there's no need to actively avoid them.

Nabootique · 20/10/2016 17:00

I am flattered botemp Grin

Do you agree with the leaving a gap between the AHA and retinoids? The only retinoid product I use is Luna (although I have a few moisturisers that contain it in minuscule amounts, but I didn't buy them for that and I can't imagine it would be effective), and I don't wait with that, but then it is a less typical form.

I think a lot of the gumph written about vitamin C (and I agree a lot of it just does not apply to a normal person doing a skincare routine) is written about L-asorbic acid specifically, when there are so many alternatives on the market now. A lot of the information out there is outdated in terms of ingredients being used now, or at least ingredients that are out there and available (Beautypedia, I'm looking at you).

I think another part of the problem is that The Ordinary is not a traditional range in the sense that you can buy your entire routine there but that's how most will try to understand it.

They'll bring out a cleanser, I bet. If you look at how the NIOD and Hylamide ranges progressed, cleansers seem to come later.

Brandon Truaxe said that if the NIOD copper product was being used in a routine with acid to apply the serum first, wait 10 minutes (he said one minute would actually be sufficient, but just in case) and then use the acid product, and doing it the other way around would mean a longer wait to be on the safe side. This was due to a "cancelling out" type issue. I just mention it as it wasn't a combination I'd seen in any of the other articles, even ones that did mention copper peptides (like the one I posted).

Kennington · 20/10/2016 17:28

My favourite ingredients:
Glycerine
Grapeseed oil
Urea
Cyclopentasiloxane - silicone that make skin looks great during the day but it is just superficial, and in some primers
Salicylic acid (BHA) for blackheads
I don't bother with vit C as it is so unstable.
As for hyluronic acid I find it gives me a few spots but I could be wrong

RubyGoat · 20/10/2016 17:42

Botemp - where do you find out all this useful info please? I'd really like to improve my skin - I'm on a budget, mid 30s, still have slightly rubbish (teenagey) skin, & apparently peri menopausal. I'd like to have a few years of decent skin before the wrinkles start to appear... Grin

CoconutAmericano · 20/10/2016 18:22

What does NIAD mean? I can't work it out for the life of me. Great thread!

Nabootique · 20/10/2016 19:11

NIOD is just a skincare brand. Well, a very advanced and clever one. It's made by the same people who make The Ordinary that I mentioned upthread.

Pupsiecola · 20/10/2016 19:19

Another question from me. I assume some products should be used temporarily to get the desired effect and others ongoing? So say I use a pigment control serum for a couple months and am pleased with the results, so long as I look after my skin SPF wise would I expect to drop that particular product? My other question, which I'm almost afraid to ask, is why don't men go through this?! Different hormones and lack of make up? My husband has really good skin and never puts anything on it!

OP posts:
CoconutAmericano · 20/10/2016 19:42

Thanks nabootique

botemp · 20/10/2016 20:19

I'm not sure on the necessity of AHA/Retinol wait time, Nabootique. Most AHAs I've used for exfoliation with the lower pH/high % usually say not to use in combination with Retinol at all due to risk of irritation and over exfoliation. Then the gentler AHAs of lower strength and higher pH you'd use as a skin prep wouldn't warrant the wait time either. The modern Retinols all tend to be quite gentle too so it seems over cautious. I think the whole 20 mins before Retinol is derived from Retin-A use where it actually makes sense.

I have to say NIOD started confusing me a lot as to what the brand was about when they introduced that Ayurvedic inspired cleanser and then the non-acid acid thingy when he was always on record as being somewhat anti-acids and not big on cleansing either. I'm half convinced they created The Ordinary for people to make sense of NIOD and allow them to graduate into it after getting to grips with the basics in The Ordinary.

LegoCaltrops , from everywhere basically. A bunch of science based blogs mixed with things like Beautypedia, Wikipedia, the Reddit skincare subreddits, a couple of podcasts but usually I'm just looking into something because a new product comes onto the market and it's a bit of a rabbit hole. It's a lot of different voices with different views but they do tend to agree on certain things which makes for a good base.

I'm a deconstructivist thinker though so I like to take things apart to make sense of it all. When I found that a lot of skincare products that were supposed to help only seemed to make the situation I was trying to rectify worse, it made more sense to understand exactly what was doing what ingredient wise as opposed to focusing on the products.

If you want specific advice to your situation I think Nabootique is probably better suited wrt product recommendations, I think BHA, some La Roche Posay and a few products from The Ordinary would be a direction to look towards but I have no clue if that is budget enough.

Pupsiecola, men do suffer, they just don't care as much and aren't as vocal about it (this is changing though, spending is on the rise in men whilst women are spending less), and we don't pay that much attention to it. I'm quite skin obsessed but only really with my own, I hardly look at the state of others unless it's in a really noticeable bad state. Their skin is slightly thicker and somewhat more resilient but there aren't any major differences. The shaving does help as it's exfoliating and they don't wear makeup which I think makes a big difference.

Yes, if you're treating for something specific and it is no longer an issue you go back into preservation mode basically. I have enlarged pores when the weather changes and the occasional blemish which is when I'll pull out the BHA but otherwise it's of little use to me. I have completely different routines depending on season and geographical location.

Nabootique · 20/10/2016 22:04

Lego When you say teenage, do you have blemishes, and/or are you oily? Any other issues you'd like to address, like dullness or are you dehydrated? I like a lot of info so I don't recommend the wrong thing Wink Off to bed now but will come back and post tomorrow.

EnidButton · 21/10/2016 02:50

I find that with Hyaluronic acid too Kennington Not just on skincare but also when it's used in make up so I'm quite certain that's what it is. I'd yet to find anyone who agreed with me until your post.

This is an excellent thread. I've learnt so much.

botemp · 21/10/2016 08:35

Kennington and EnidButton, though HA is naturally present in our body irritation is possible. Sodium hyaluronate, the salt form, is often used interchangeably, officially the INCI Name is Sodium hyaluronic acid sometimes it's written as Sodium acetyl hyaluronate or Hydrolyzed hyaluronic acid or just confusingly Hyaluronan which can be the salt or acid form.

Though more likely it's the type of the molecular weight used. There's a lot of marketing talk (especially in the Western market) that low molecular weight HA is more superior as it actually penetrates the skin barrier and is therefore more effective (which in the case of HA fillers of non lmw-HA is the case but that's because it is injected underneath the skin). There's some issues with lmw-HA as it is potentially more irritating, has a lower rate of water retention (which is what we want HA for and we also actually want it at the skin barrier to improve water retention there) and unfortunately most manufacturers don't disclose the type of HA weight they're using.

There is some research out there that lmw-HA has potential as a 'cell communicating' ingredient (meaning it will actually effect underlying skin biology, so interesting in terms of anti-ageing) but currently it's lacking substantial data to support that theory and depending on how effective it is, should be considered a drug in those concentrations.

Pupsiecola · 21/10/2016 09:00

I think either the Pigment Controller or the Bionic Lotion are making my neck red and sore. I think it might be the latter. Does anything from the ingredient list jump out?

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Pupsiecola · 21/10/2016 09:03

Sorry. Posted too soon. Meant to post the list for the latter, which is below. I've not thought about pH before either and just notice it on this one. Any advice on pH levels? I've always been fine with the Bio-Hydrating cream from the same range which is the one my dermatologist recommended a few years ago (I just noticed it's got parabens in but I note the points made about that above). I think I might just stick to the LRP Toleraine which is arriving today, and the Bio-Hydrating for moisturising for now! Brilliant thread. Thank you so much for all the comprehensive answers.

This high-strength, antiaging moisturizer is ideal for patients with dry skin who prefer a lightweight lotion. The antioxidant PHAs in this formula attract and bind moisture to the skin, providing enhanced moisturization for dry to extremely dry skin, including eczema on the face and body. Antioxidants help prevent environmental and oxidative damage. Suitable for use on face and body. Clinically shown to improve dryness, redness and flaking associated with eczema. Ideal adjunctive therapy for topicals that result in dry skin or for pre and post-procedure use. Fragrance-Free. Formulated with 12% Gluconolactone, 3% Lactobionic Acid and Vitamin E.

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yoink · 21/10/2016 09:04

Hi, sorry for hijack, I'm new to this and I'm finding it really hard to follow. Can anyone point me to a beginner's guide please?

I've been recommended The Ordinary products but I can't make head nor tail of it (yet)!

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