If you could start again what would you do differently?

[SnowWhitesSM]

Hi it's me again

Brief overview - I have two teens FT and h has his ds 8. He moved out a month or so ago. When we got married dh came down with a huge case of the nrp dad guilt which infected our marriage and caused lots of problems. I became very resentful of his parenting and his son. Hs parenting is pretty normal apart from he gives the decision making power to his son. I believed for ages that I was a monster and it was my fault but actually his processes are wrong. I desperately wanted us to be a team and for us to be a family but at the time hs guilt and anxiety couldn't allow this. I had never been as miserable as what I was when we were living together and his son was around. I cannot do that to myself again.

So h is desperate that we don't split up. He's starting a CBT group for his anxiety and wants us to go back to counselling. I really want my marriage to work. I want to include his son and I want us both to be a team around all the dc. I want the flipping Waltons ffs.

So we're going to go to marriage counselling and get back to basics. We're going to have a year apart to work on ourselves. He is not to blame for everything that went wrong but he's the root of it. I'm not saying that to shift blame as I am responsible for my own words and actions when feeling hurt/rejected ect but it all stems from his dad guilt and giving decision making power to his son.

What do I need from him to be happy being a step parent? What works for you? How do I explain how to be a team with him?

Just reading the part about the kids being an extension of their dad - my XDP was just like this. He was always banging on about how his DDs were the exact spitting image of him, and nothing like their mum (which I imagine for them was the last thing they wanted to hear as he’s a 17 stone Neanderthal and their mum looks like Barbie on crack and he would always be surprised when one of them said something funny or quoted a TV show or something that wasn’t one of his go-to quotes. He’d say things like “ah wow it’s like she’s developing this whole personality that’s separate to me” at the age of 12, like that was something new. I was baffled by it, but now I see where it comes from. Very strange attitude.

@GregTheEgg

Just reading the part about the kids being an extension of their dad - my XDP was just like this. He was always banging on about how his DDs were the exact spitting image of him, and nothing like their mum (which I imagine for them was the last thing they wanted to hear as he’s a 17 stone Neanderthal and their mum looks like Barbie on crack and he would always be surprised when one of them said something funny or quoted a TV show or something that wasn’t one of his go-to quotes. He’d say things like “ah wow it’s like she’s developing this whole personality that’s separate to me” at the age of 12, like that was something new. I was baffled by it, but now I see where it comes from. Very strange attitude.

My EXDP was like this as well. He couldn't bare anything to be said to/about his DS that could be perceived as negative, as he saw it as a criticism of himself.

EXDP was so far gone that when incidents happened right in front of him, such as DSS10 tripping DS4 over intentionally, he'd claim not to have seen, despite him being sat next to DSS10. Then he'd say the only reason I'd told DSS10 not to do things like that is because I wasn't his mum! I'd ask how did DS4 fall down, and he'd say he must have tripped over his own feet! I'd then get a sly smirk from DSS10, knowing his dad would never blame him for anything. All the DC were EXDPs by the way. I could no longer stomach my DC being treated as second class citizens by their own father, while each visit by his DS was welcomed as if he was the second coming of Christ.

If I had my time again, I honestly wouldn't have gone near a man who had a DC already. When we met I was early 30's, and thought I had to compromise more given my age, and desire to have DC soon. The reality is that I should have waited to find a child free man so I didn't have to deal with EXDP's Disney Dadding and NRP guilt. Plus he's a narcissist, which never helps matters either.

Yup, it’s quite common I think. I can’t remember the term but it is essentially when the parent doesn’t see the child as in individual in their own right but rather an extension of themselves. And / or ‘things’ that validate them as a person. So the children become a supply to the narcissistic parent.

They make him look better. So the last thing he can do is criticise the very thing that he thinks makes him look great. This also means that boundaried parenting goes out the window (routines, discipline, chores) because in this mode all the parent wants is praise and thanks and validation. Having ‘fun’ is the name of the game so that the children tell everyone else how great the parent is.

It can also lend to the two tier system of that persons children being ‘superior’ to other children. Again, the most important thing is these children/ child having the best time. Other children and their needs become largely irrelevant.

This is all fine when children are young, but it can become more problematic when as @GregTheEgg says, the children get older. They form their own personalities, distinct from the parent. Their own opinions. Potentially even rebel. Or worse still pick up elements of heightened entitlement themselves. The control and mecanisms that worked when the children were young become much more complex.

@Starseeking (based on the reading I have been doing), your ex would do this because your joint children were also an extension of you. So if he was already saying you were the problem, your joint DC became part of the same problem. And he engaged in splitting behaviours. Where his son was the victim, you (your joint DC) the persecutors and he was the rescuer. Its a triangle very commonly used by people who seek to manipulate.

It’s all quite messed up stuff. Sorry @SnowWhitesSM for the mini hijack.

Honestly I think he sounds incredibly hard work and likely abusive. I think your life would be a helluva lot easier with someone more straightforward and caring. Don't waste time trying to fix other people. They are usually not worth it. (I spent 20 years trying to fix other people and 10 years with someone who was sorted in himself. Guess which decade I was most happy in, and still am?)

Your ex would do this because your joint children were also an extension of you. So if he was already saying you were the problem, your joint DC become part of the same problem. And he engaged in splitting behaviours. Where his son was the victim, you (your joint DC) the persecutors and he was the rescuer. It's a triangle very commonly used by people who seek to manipulate.

The above is so interesting sassbott as that is exactly how my EXDP used to behave. One very disturbing thing he and his DS used to do was to gang up together to laugh at our joint DS, which I pulled him up on many many times. Things like when I purchased an Arabic suit for DS to wear, EXDP and DSS laughed at him saying he looked like Aladdin, and not in a nice way. If DS had a hole in his trousers, EXDP or DSS would point it out and again be laughing. EXDP claimed it was a joke, and that the 3 of them would do it to each other, but I never heard DS on the other side of the joke. Again, EXDP would claim I never heard it because DS is my son! I have many similar examples, but don't want to hijack the thread! He'd also put down our DS in similar ways to how he'd try and pull me down. This was when DS was 3-4 years old, at which point I left! I do worry now we are not together how much of this goes on at EXDP's when our DC go to visit, given I'm no longer there to pull him up on it (I recognise I couldn't stop it when I was living in the sane house, but still).

I wonder if there is any explanation as to why EXDP sees his DS an extension of him (his DM is very much Alice and kicking!), but not our joint DS, who is also his flesh and blood?

He will see your DS as an extension of himself when another woman is in the mix. Without you there these behaviours with your DS may well stop.

sorry for the high jack - no don't apologise It's really interesting.

Well ladies - I am truly stumped.

My usually well behaved ex has been drinking the water of some of your guys ex's 😭😭 my ex told our 3 year old that mummy and daddy could live together if SD would just move out and we would get married.

Clearly he's been sniffing glue. My toddler due to her age and got bit muddled seemed to think that we would all live together in my house and I would have multiple DH 😭 this is the ex that cheated on me while pregnant so she never experienced seeing me and my ex together. I am baffled.

Back to therapy I go to find out where and how I seek out these men ! bangs head against wall

@SnowWhitesSM how you doing lovely now the festivities have calmed down a bit !

What a weirdo Candle!

I don't really know how I'm doing if I'm honest. I deeply miss h today and missed him last night. But Christmas day I felt so relieved when he left. I'm so up and down.

He msgd me tiktoks of Jordan peterson talking about marriage and family. He also msgd me essays on how I need to take accountability for my shit and work on myself instead of being on my high horse and blaming him for everything and to get out of victim mode. But I do feel like a victim! I feel like he's treated me really badly. That's not to say that I'm perfect but most of my shit has been in reaction to his. The sad thing is it's only my stubbornness and pride that's keeping me away from him. If he took full accountability and didn't take it back two days later I'd be back with him in a heartbeat. He has said previously that its the way I have told him when I've been upset that has made him react to me the way he does. I know this is not true the majority of the time. I've consciously wrote down things in I statements, I've used every good communication strategy I had in my arsenal and he's still reacted the way he has to me being upset about being - inconsidered, taken for granted, the way he speaks aggressively to me, the impact of his parenting on me and my dc and his ds, the impact of his ex - my family say that I've never considered anyone more than what I have with him. I bent myself in so many different ways to accommodate him and nothing has really worked.

I've been writing tons of lists. Lists of things he does nice, lists of things he doesn't do nice, lists of reasons to stay with him, lists of reasons to continue the split. I feel quite bereft of him this morning. I miss him and I don't want to miss him, but I know I'll feel exactly how I always feel when being with him and the shitty step parenting situation.

I want to feel like and be a priority to someone. I want to come first, I want us to be the team around the dc. I don't want this shitty step parenting life he's given me. He says all of this will change but I just don't believe him. I want to though

I know I can be hard work, I know I've been over reacting for the last 6 months and taking things personally. I know I've always assumed the worse when it's come to his ex and his ds but I've been so miserable because of the way he parents and his shit boundaries with his ex. I don't know if I'm in victim mode or not? I'm really confused tbh.

Yet again he is blaming you, get again he is giving you zero space, yet again he's making it all your responsibility to fix.

Why are you listening to his bullshit?

How long have you been together in total?

He has done a complete number on you.

He has you tied up in knots listening to his crap!

@SnowWhitesSM

I know I can be hard work, I know I've been over reacting for the last 6 months and taking things personally. I know I've always assumed the worse when it's come to his ex and his ds but I've been so miserable because of the way he parents and his shit boundaries with his ex. I don't know if I'm in victim mode or not? I'm really confused tbh.

This man has really damaged your self-esteem, don't think this stuff about yourself.

Value yourself and know that you deserve to be loved and cherished in any relationship, not treated as a (metaphorical) punchbag, or blamed for someone else's poor parenting and lack of boundaries.

When you're away from these men, it's easy to gloss over their behaviour when they were with you. Whenever I start feeling like my EXDP mustn't have been so bad, I recall his treatment over my miscarriage, when he didn't so much as make me a cup of tea, then called me lazy as I spent three days in bed running back and forth from the bathroom expelling tissue, before having a D&C under general anaesthetic that he only offered to take me to because "otherwise I'd make him look bad". No word about wanting to care for me, and it strengthened my resolve to leave.

Think of the worst incident you have had with your DH, and keep it at the front of your mind as the minute you put yourself back in the relationship, the same dynamics will play out, unless he has had a personality transplant or has done sufficient work on himself to truly change his gaslighting behaviour.

From what I've read, these types unfortunately don't change, and their true character creeps out all the time. Your example of him shouting at you over your Christmas social media post is a prime example. He is supposed to be trying to win you back, not drive you away! No-one wants to put up with that kind of treatment for the rest of their life, and it's good you found it in you to take time apart to reflect.

A lot of women are unable to find the strength to leave, and will muddle along hoping he will change, meanwhile his lack of respect for them gets worse over time.

@SnowWhitesSM firstly >. It is ok to miss him and it is very natural. If you didn’t you would be the narcissistic abuser in this relationship.

Listen, I miss my exp. It’s a given. I’m not being hard on myself (waste of energy). I accept where I am, let my feelings run through me and know that these too will pass. It will ups and downs. Please also be aware that there will be more ups and downs with someone like this vs if you were with someone healthy.

Healthy people respect boundaries and space. If he too was genuinely unhappy (vs just being a manipulator) he would be using this time and space himself to reset, get to counselling, work on himself and ask himself what he wanted.

I’ve been where you are. I remember the chaotic thoughts in my brain. I remember listening to videos he sent me. And questioning myself as to whether I had anger issues, was crazy, had a split personality. At the time I was seeing a counsellor about general life stuff - work stress, anxiety management, post divorce processing etc. I turned up to one of my sessions and literally burst into tears on her. She had normally seen a composed, calm person, never close to what she saw that day.

When I calmed down. She asked if I wanted to talk about it. And I remember sitting there telling her I wanted her to be very honest with me, tell me what she really thought and not hold back. She and I had probably been doing regular counselling work for perhaps 6-8 months by now.

I asked her if she thought I was crazy and whether she thought I suffered from anger issues and whether I needed to get an evaluation. I remember her going very still, and she answered my question. She clearly said she was not someone who was trained in personality disorders, or diagnosing anger management issues. But. She had been working as a therapist for over 20 years and based on her training and work there was nothing she had seen in any of our sessions that lead her to think I was even close to any of the questions I had asked. She then asked me Why I asked the questions I did and I told her.

She listened, we spoke and I was much calmer and grounded by the end of the session. She never gave advice, but as I was about to leave she said one sentence to me. She said ‘this man is very unhealthy. Please be careful and look after yourself and your children.’ I asked her, ‘based on the little I have told you, what would you do?’ Her reply was one word. ‘Run.’

I’m the sharing the above for a reason. When I was at my peak of feeling sad and confused and overwhelmed under his barrage of criticisms, I’m very lucky that I had a professional I already trusted in my corner. That professional is who helped me unpick some of his language; that and some close friends I confided in. I’m not entirely sure what I would have done had they not been there.

I didn’t run I’m ashamed to say. I listened to his rhetoric of making change and also internalised to some degree that i was part of the problem. What I did do in hindsight however was put some boundaries in. I refused to entertain any convos about cohabiting.

It’s been a long road since then. It’s been a combo of ongoing counselling (for me), the erecting and retaining of more boundaries (also me) and essentially getting myself stronger. The final critical step is working with a counsellor who specialises in narcissist abuse.

What stands out to me about your post is that he is focussing solely on you being the problem. Again sorry but this is classic narcissist behaviour. He’s taking no responsibility, even now.

When do you start seeing your counsellor? I would advise asap as I think that will really help you.

Both your reactions are normal. You love him so will miss him however he isn't emotionally healthy which makes you unhappy. That won't change.

His messages show that he can't take any responsibility and in case you doubt yourself, I recall some of your earlier posts and his behaviour towards you is intolerable. These toxic types are so manipulative that you do end up doubting yourself but they also get under your skin. I have been there!

Toxic relationships take longer to recover from so give yourself time. It helped me to have examples of his behaviour written down and also how I felt when it was really bad. This will help your resolve when your mind recalls some of the happier times.

Can you stand back and see his tactics? First, trying to say he would do counselling, now he is blaming you? List all the different approaches he had taken.

You are all right. I know this logically but deep down I think - you could have handled things better, you weren't very nice to him on x day, you are a bit childish and stubborn sometimes. Then I doubt myself on whether I'm doing the right thing or not. He says I make him out to be a monster when he's not and that I want him to accept he's this monster I've created in my head.

But when I do manage to step back, I can do this when he's shouting and blaming me, I can see the tactics he uses. I can see the projection and the that he's saying things he doesn't mean out of anger. So if I can see all of this why on earth do I think about taking him back! I would love nothing more right now then to go to his new flat and give him a cuddle. I'm not going to, I am staying away from him but I'm so sad. I don't know why I think its ok to stay with him when he's been so horrible to me. And then I think - am I manipulating you guys to be the victim and get sympathy. Arghh I just want out of my own head right now!

Also, I rang the DV helpline months ago and talked through his behaviours and my behaviours. They categorically stated that he was abusive and to get him out. They said my behaviours were normal relationship behaviours and it's ok to get annoyed about mess that he leaves ect and my reactions to that were not abusive. I still feel like if I was nicer and took things less personal then he wouldn't act the way he does.

You are a rescuer and he continually plays to your deepest desire to fix him and you and make it all better.

Perhaps you can end it with the neutral "we don't work as a family unit we are all unhappy"

I have said that @RandomMess he says thats me being unwilling to work on myself and since he's willing to work on himself then he must love me more than him (not those exact words but thats the gist of it).

😂😂😂. @SnowWhitesSM I’m sorry, there is no part of this that is funny. But OMG the s**t that comes out of their mouths.

I know right now you’re confused and hurting. Take heart from me (who is ahead of you in some regards on this journey and can see these words for what they are), that one day you will look back in bewilderment that his words had this much impact on you. X

(P.s I got the same terminology. I didn’t love him because I didn’t support him/ work on it/ give them relationship stability*. He loved me more. Etc etc. The final time he said that to me I looked him square in the eye and said ‘you’re right, I don’t love you enough, I love myself far more.’ And I meant every word.

*replace any of these phrases with any criticism of me

Keep posting. Even if you fold, no one here will judge.

Do you have plans / dates to see a counsellor. That is what you need to get out of your head.

🤣 OMG so much shit, have you not lost respect for him that he just lies through his back teeth?

He speaks in pure DARVO

I honestly don't respect him, I don't fancy him anymore, I don't know why I'm doing this to myself. I'm annoying myself so much. I keep thinking that I'm in the wrong and could work on things even though I know I'm not. It's fucking strange in my head atm!

@sassbott I really hope I can start laughing at his shit and see him for who he is quite soon. Well I can laugh but I go back on it for some strange reason. I think it's guilt and not trusting myself. My counselling is arranged through work. My manager approved my request officially on the 17th, I'm just waiting for the phone call from the admin person who arranges the counselling to book in my first new session.

@SnowWhitesSM I’ve been where you are and I know how tough it is. It’s basically a culmination of what he has said/ done over years. It’s a gradual increase of manipulation mixed in with love bombing. The manipulation ramps over time, with you I think the mask really slipped and ramped up after you got married (which is very common in abusers).

So what happens is (as we should) we give our partners, over time a special place in our lives - that encompasses emotions, mental space, physical intimacy - the works. If in a relationship with a healthy person, this isn’t a problem. As a healthy relationship is build on mutual trust and compromise and respect.

With people like this, they have no intent of doing any of that. Compromise and respect does not feature. So they take that special place and that is where the abuse starts. Subtly at first, subtle put downs. Very much out of the blue. Designed to startle and unbalance, then the ‘nice guy’ returns. Job one is done. They successfully make you think the aberration was out of character and actually you did do something to warrant it. It ramps from there. Such that when they say ‘you are the problem’, you listen. And question, yourself.

As I said before, flares are deployed to stop you questioning their behaviour and make you question yours. And they will be hard on this because nothing is harder to a narcissist than being criticised and told they are the problem. Telling him to move out and take his son and packing their things is the biggest insult to him, his pride, his ego, his sense of self and (most importantly - this part is huge) what other people think of him.

So he will go full pelt now. Why? So that he can say ‘you were the issue, that you’ve acknowledged you were the issue and he’s decided to give you another chance.’ He will not acknowledge anywhere that he was the problem. Then (if you let him back), his behaviour will escalate further. Because he will now be hellbent on proving his rhetoric correct and making you out to be the problematic one. This will include causing situations (with witnesses) where he lines you up to explode/ react. No one watching will know the full story, but he will be able to say ‘see I told you so, this is what I’m putting up with.’

Trust me when I tell you that the level of manipulation is something completely alien to people like us.

It’s good your counselling is coming. Focus on that and journal. Try and remove the emotions and look at his changing behaviours/ tacks. What he says only to reverse. What different tactics he tries and most importantly, how he refuses to listen to what you want and need.

Tell him your fanny has clamped shut so there is no point!!

I swear he's more invested because you have a lovely home that made his life 1,000% easier.

Thanks both!

He would totally do the I'm giving her another chance thing. Oh what a nice guy I am and poor me being treated so badly by her. I can see it now. He does it about his sons mum.

Kicking him out was a huge wound to his ego! He told me I made him feel like a peasant!

Random he totally hates not living in my home with my dc. Things like washing up, he hates washing up. At my house there's a dishwasher and my dc take turns cleaning the kitchen every evening and taking the rubbish out. I usually cooked so he had those home comforts. His son wasn't hard work to him as he usually ended up pestering my dc and h ignored it for an easy life - then blamed me for making him feel bad that he couldn't spend quality time with his son as I made him feel guilty for that. He never changed the bed once whilst living with me, he was OK at fixing things but I had to nag.

Imagine coming home to a usually clean and tidy home, dinner is sorted and all you do is sit down, eat, leave your plate by the dishwasher as although you're supposed to rinse and put it in thats too much hard work when you've been working all day, shower, watch Netflix and play on your phone, your step dc are either in their rooms or at youth club. What a lovely life to complain about. Prick!

@SnowWhitesSM yup, you’ve just described my set up. My house (especially pre covid) ran like a well oiled machine. Mix of kids doing chores and outside help. Fridge would be fully stocked, food cooked. House cleaned, laundry done and ironed. He literally could show up and everything was done. Oh and he never contributed to anything.

But apparently I didn’t make him feel comfortable enough. After a few years of listening to his rhetoric I bluntly told him to stop coming to mine if he felt so uncomfortable and spend time at his. It was an insult, he got a lovely happy family home free of conflict. Where he was welcomed.

But because I didn’t ask him continually to come over and then roll out the red carpet for him, I wasn’t doing enough.

The break up has been hard for me mentally and emotionally. But our physical distance had been there for sometime. Simply because I was unwilling to be around his demeanour when on one.

Prick is a the word of the day!