If you could start again what would you do differently?

[SnowWhitesSM]

Hi it's me again

Brief overview - I have two teens FT and h has his ds 8. He moved out a month or so ago. When we got married dh came down with a huge case of the nrp dad guilt which infected our marriage and caused lots of problems. I became very resentful of his parenting and his son. Hs parenting is pretty normal apart from he gives the decision making power to his son. I believed for ages that I was a monster and it was my fault but actually his processes are wrong. I desperately wanted us to be a team and for us to be a family but at the time hs guilt and anxiety couldn't allow this. I had never been as miserable as what I was when we were living together and his son was around. I cannot do that to myself again.

So h is desperate that we don't split up. He's starting a CBT group for his anxiety and wants us to go back to counselling. I really want my marriage to work. I want to include his son and I want us both to be a team around all the dc. I want the flipping Waltons ffs.

So we're going to go to marriage counselling and get back to basics. We're going to have a year apart to work on ourselves. He is not to blame for everything that went wrong but he's the root of it. I'm not saying that to shift blame as I am responsible for my own words and actions when feeling hurt/rejected ect but it all stems from his dad guilt and giving decision making power to his son.

What do I need from him to be happy being a step parent? What works for you? How do I explain how to be a team with him?

Hun this is what this forum is for. Do not do whatever you do stop talking or keep all of this stuff in. Doesn't matter if you repeat yourself a million times we are here !

I see his hurt inner child and keep thinking that if he can just sort his shit we'll be alright

Do you really think an adult who has behaved like this for all of his life can change? I think you're being too optimistic because his triggers come from deep seated beliefs about his son. Changing one's beliefs is extremely difficult and Lundys book discusses why change is almost impossible.

Ex went to counselling for years, we did joint counselling and eventually I did counselling. Solo counselling helped me work out he wasn't going to change - thankfully I had a great counsellor who I believe had a similar relationship experience. Some counsellors will assume it's a communication issue...it absolutely isn't.

If you're a rescuer and nurturer you are in danger of only seeing the good in people.. always assuming someone wants to change but I fear it isn't the case for your H as he seems low on genuine empathy as he has treated you dreadfully.

Isn't this the man who has separate cupboards of food for his son and you have had to debate what food your son has eaten?

I think his trigger is control. He doesn't want you acting independently and that includes photos on SM. I would not hear his apologies as they are only words. Get a journal and wrote down all the times he is horrible to you. Judge him by his actions towards you only. Don't change who you are, be yourself and if he is triggered that's on him.

I 100% agree it's control related. His shit is all to do with control. I think you're probably right about me being optimistic thinking he can change. Control stems from feeling unsafe, I'm hoping if he does his inner work he won't be in survival mode and feeling unsafe but I'm not sure if he'll ever admit his behaviour is controlling. He does admit the cupboards were wrong, and everything else I've posted on this board he now says how fucked up it was of him. But I still don't feel he's taking actual accountability. It's very easy to say something was wrong and your sorry but as his pattern of behaviour goes - do something wrong, get upset by wife's reaction, blame wife and make her think she's the one with the issues, push wife too far, say sorry, be really nice until the next time wife gets upset about something husband has done - and then rinse and repeat I'm not sure if this is genuine remorse this time or not.

Actually it is genuine sadness. He hates being apart from me. He's much more upset about the split than me. He's not looking after himself and is barely working even though he has lots of work on.

He's not threatening suicide or anything like that to guilt me. He's just in a very shit place and is feeling very upset about losing me.

Stay together love separately.

He can be in full control at his without gaslighting you at a joint place. All the fun and support without any of his control and shit.

I'm happy to live apart. It isn't me pushing for us to live together again. But I've got to admit I don't think I'll be able to move forward even living apart if he keeps being the way he is and doesn't sort out his parenting. I'm not sure if that's being controlling but it irritates me so much.

One plus is that he's continued to stick to a bedtime. But he's only got himself a 1 bed so they're sharing a room (although he's bought him a seperate bed).

He's pushing to live back together already??

I think he is missing the cushy life and home you provided him with.

It’s ridiculous that he’s only rented a one bedroom flat.

Honestly, that is clear evidence that he didn’t really believe you were serious about ending the relationship. So he went for something that he could play the miserable martyr in temporarily until he could persuade to to have him back.

Him feeling depressed is not your problem. You didn’t cause that. He could have made changes long before the point that you were so worn down and miserable that you had to leave. He didn’t.

The fact he’s sticking to bedtime now indicates that he prefers it. Without you to absorb all his negative feelings, he has to recognise that even he doesn’t enjoy the outcomes of his parenting choices.

I have seen exactly the same in my H. He is stepping up more and sticking to (some) things because he realised he really doesn’t like his children’s behaviour. That would be the behaviour he’s been encouraging for years.

But he’s still not willing to recognise how dreadfully he’s treated me. Or that he has to take responsibility for his children’s behaviour (and how it affects everyone else). He’s still blaming just his ex and claiming there’s nothing he can do. To a degree, that’s true. But they don’t behave like that at school. So they are able to modify their behaviour if the environment encourages them too. Regardless what their mother allows at her house.

I think it’s important to look at their actions and choices, rather than listening to the story they’re spinning you. There’s often a big gap between the two. And the actions are far more reliable evidence of his intentions than the words.

@SnowWhitesSM

First and foremost, I have to say, well done on getting him out your home and forcing this. It won’t have been easy and it took so much courage, without sounding cheesy, i think a lot of us are so proud of you.

Second of all. You did not do this. He did. So stop wasting valuable energy on guilt. There is too much other emotional work ahead of you and guilt just saps energy and doesn’t give any positive output.

Ok. So advice.

1. I absolutely agree that you both require individual therapy before moving into joint counselling. Be completely honest in your therapy and hopefully you’ll see someone who specialises in abuse/ controlling/ coercive behaviours.

2. don’t listen to anything he says right now, look at his actions. I have red flags galore that he shouted at you because of something you posted on SM? That’s NOT remotely ok. Ignore the words promising change, look at the behaviour.

3. Keep a diary. From here on in. Of interactions with him, your emotions and responses. In time you may start to see a pattern in his behaviour (cycles of niceness/ dysfunction/ attack).

4. Take your time and don’t rush back into anything

5. it’s good you’ve read the Lundy book. I did too about 18 months ago. Thought (just like you), he doesn’t tick these boxes. Your rhetoric of the person hurting inside etc was my rhetoric. So I went back and tried again. (He made all the promises too - therapy, team etc). The mistake I made was to take his words at face value. And assume that when I said ‘I love you’, his came from the same loving place.

6. Keep your boundaries strong. Don’t let them move at this stage. This is how you will see his true colours. A person who really wants to work with you? Will respect boundaries and give you the time and space you need. One who doesn’t, will show you their frustration. (And I bet his shouting at you was a form of his frustration coming out that he isn’t back living in your home). Since you say he is pushing to live together again. Look for these patterns. If he is an abusive narcissist, he won’t like you holding firm. Expect an escalation in depression/ mental health/ anxiety/ emergencies with the children etc. He will ramp up his behaviour to get what he wants.
   If he isn’t an abusive narcissist, then he won’t.

7. Open your eyes and ears to the professionals. Discard what you think you know about him / his reasons for his behaviour/ etc etc. and ask the experts and be prepared to listen to them.

My personal story? I split for the final time with my exp earlier this year. Many attempts going back and forth. Individual therapy/ joint therapy/ the works. The last time i went back, my boundaries were clear and non negotiable. I stopped making excuses for his poor behaviour and held him accountable, each and every time. Saw his true colours.

I reread the Lundy book about a month ago. With a lot of therapy in my back pocket, in a stronger space mentally and emotionally. And with the blinders off/ excuses removed. He met most the criteria. I’m the same person, just mentally stronger.

I don’t think i was ready to accept what that book was saying the first time i read it. I still loved him too much, still had hope and faith. I also think sub consciously I was too scared to face the fact that this was the man I had allowed in my life - I was in denial. I’m not saying this is you - I’m just sharing my experience in the hope it may help.

My one piece of advice. Hold your boundaries and do not capitulate to his demands. His guilt tripping I fear will escalate over Xmas. He knows how to press your buttons and he will press every single one to get what he wants.

Keep posting, we’re all here for you x

Snow I don't doubt he's sad.

I don't doubt he is sorry.

I don't doubt he's guilty for the way he's treated you.

But emotions aren't actions.

So so many women who come to our NFP talk of their partners like this, their have enrolled on a course, is willing to change and it's less than 0.00023 something percent that make change that lasts longer than a year. It's a really depressing statistics when you see the hope on these women's faces. The problem is when someone is used to having all the control, they have no reason to change and will revert back once they feel they are safe and back in driving seat.

Just for the love of god don't stop talking ok.

Also sassbot has it down ! There are so many people that are proud of you !

I know you mentioned moving on, try to think about when you loved someone really hard, and you holding on to them was causing them pain. Would you let go or cling tighter ...

@candlelightsatdawn thats a depressing stat. But now I can see the behaviours of my ex for what they were, it’s really heartbreaking but equally light bulb moments of ‘ohhhh’. Change is hard for them, in the main because it works for them. They get what they need/ want. Supply from someone who is useful to them. Via whatever means necessary.

Why bother with communication, compromise, being equals, apologising, working on yourself? that requires work. Why do that when you can fake ‘nice’ for a while and then bully people into acquiescence.

@sassbott and @candlelightsatdawn are right: so many people admire your strength and resilience.

It feels like leaving is the hard bit. But it’s not. It’s this bit where you’ve left but it’s not yet final and there’s wiggle room. You wish things could have been different. And he knows it.

Absolutely look at his actions. Write them down. Document them. And then ask yourself what those actions are telling you.

@sassbott it is especially when faced with the fact typically it takes 8 times to leave. 8 bloody times. One of the team just said it's because why would they give you some of the cake when they control how much you eat, when you eat and how and this gives them all the power why would they give that away. It's dark logic but it's there.

The abusers do all they can to silence and cut of communication lines, that's why in my view you absolutely cannot bash a women (or man) for returning, even when you want to scream noooo. Just plays in to these men's hands because it makes people shame spiral.

I'm glad you got away from your ex ! It's all shades of heartbreaking

Now just to be clear I'm talking about DV and usually extreme versions so the stats maybe bias on that basis but the premise is the same.

Good tip about journaling @sassbott I'm gonna steal suggestion that for my line of work with NPF you don't mind !

Bloody love MN sometimes. Sorry snow got side tracked there 💐

@candlelightsatdawn and @SnowWhitesSM the diary/ journaling is key. Even about what seem to be ‘inane’ or ‘calm adult’ conversations about the relationship/ needs etc. In the moment you can think ‘This is good, we’re making progress’ and off we hop happily.

My experience? Sometimes within days of those convos, my exp’s behaviour would change. I can now see that a variety of tools would be deployed to (basically) unsettle / unnerve me and undermine my self esteem. Why? Because my boundaries around two key areas held firm and he wasn’t getting what he wanted. So he would try and essentially attack me/ undermine me. In the hope it would make me fold.

The tactics would vary but could consist of all of the following:

Physical withdrawal (easy to do since we didn’t live together) but even on days/ nights we would see each other, he would suddenly be ‘busy’ and make himself unavailable by choice.
Silence of comms - talking/ texting (then explosions of why hadn’t I called him/ tried to see him)
Guilt over health - mentions of mental health / anxiety / not sleeping
Verbal attacks / digs - isolated one offs that would come from absolutely nowhere
Hints of other people - intimating other woman would be more ‘normal’ and I was not.
Personal attacks - not supportive enough etc

When someone is on the receiving end of it and it’s a mix and match attack (mixed in with niceness and lovely dinners and fun times), it is very hard to see it for what it is. It can actually be exceptionally disorientating and that is what it is designed to do.

When journaled and written down however, for me it showed a pattern and an escalation. Conversation would happen. I would think, progress made (but I knew he wasn’t happy). My boundaries would hold. And at some point his behaviours would escalate.

@SnowWhitesSM I’m not saying the same patterns exist here. But until I wrote things down and traced the ‘event’ to his behaviour - I couldn’t make head or tail of why he would do/ say the things he did.

Now I can clearly see that all of his behaviour can be directly correlated to two clear boundaries I held. Nothing more, nothing less.

@SnowWhitesSM, I also think you have been amazingly honest and open and your posts are helping many people.

Control stems from feeling unsafe, I'm hoping if he does his inner work he won't be in survival mode and feeling unsafe but I'm not sure if he'll ever admit his behaviour is controlling

I can relate to your motivation. I was a fixer and also had bucket loads of empathy. However I've had to learn it's a weakness and I've been naive and possibly arrogant to think I could fix someone.

Control in an adult is hardwired. An analogy I heard is "imagine his behavior is an elastic band, it can be stretched but it will always go back to the original size". He will only be able to modify his behaviour, sometimes, not eradicate it.

I know you desperately want your marriage to work because it SHOULD work but hoping and optimistism won't make it better.

His current upset isn't a sign of his motivation to change - he's just upset that his life isn't as pleasant as it was before. Financially are you protected?

@sassbott, I also followed your posts and you sound very strong and have clearly grown through the experience. Well done

It's no coincidence that his behaviour ramped up after marriage- once there was clear commitment. Suddenly he felt he had a greater say in how the family unit ran I don't think it was just guilt.

@BeyondOurReef - he's told dss that it's his time when dss is in bed. A completely normal parenting thing to do that he couldn't manage before as he felt guilty.

I'm not sure if he is martyring himself with the 1 bed, I packed up his and his sons stuff after being shouted at for 2 days and put it outside. He stayed with a mate and got the first flat available. He waived the landlord arranging a clean to get into the flat quicker and off his mates sofa. However, he will not let me forget that he's in a small dingy flat with no room and I packed his sons stuff up too. Apparently that's a line and even though I packed his things up his son should still have been given the option to stay with me. I will be really honest right now - I enjoyed packing his sons stuff up, I know my resentment is misplaced but I enjoyed it. Me and my friend were exclaiming how great it was that I'd never have to be his sons step parent again.

He is putting a lot of guilt on me. He has told me that he was having a panic attack but couldn't ring me as I didnt want to speak to him but he really needed me. He's told me how depressed he is and that he isn't looking after himself properly, he's shouted at me in frustration for not being able to find paracetamol in his flat as its too small and lots of things are still in bags and boxes, he now has shit parking and lives on a noisy road and has told me he really resents that I'm still living in my quiet home with no parking issues and space. His ranting about my SM post was A jealousy that I made myself look single on SM by saying me and the kids B that I'm in my nice home and everythings working out for me C upset that we're not spending Xmas together as he was really looking forward to it.

He also guilts me on how badly he's sleeping and how bad his stomach is with feeling anxious and sad about us.

@candlelightsatdawn you're so right. Emotion isn't action. I will remember that.

@sassbott thank you, you're posts are always so helpful. He's already pushed my boundaries. When he managed to get me to give him another chance I said I wanted 3 months of space, 3 months of us both to work on ourselves and then to come back after 3 months and start joint counselling. He just won't agree to that. He says its because he can't do it without me, that he desperately needs my support at the lowest time of his life and feels too anxious at the thought of me moving in a different direction to him. I've now given in and so he's texting me and ringing me every day again. I' even invited him and dss for Christmas lunch yesterday. I can't now backtrack on it as all the dc are happy and the boys are very excited.

He completely DARVOs me! Omg seeing the darvo script online is 100% what he does the majority of the time!

I will keep a journal. I already note down most of the arguments we have and use journalling as a way to process, but I haven't noted down all the ok times and times we've had ok conversations and two days later he's blown up. That is what he does but I haven't really believed that it's been done on purpose. I will start noting it all down.

@Fireflygal I know what you're saying.

@RandomMess you've got a point there. All along I've been blaming his dad guilt on marriage but it's not just been dad guilt. It's also been how me and my dc do things that are different to him that can set him off. I will think more on that and write down different examples.

He's also jealous. I don't get it. I once made a joke saying - oh guess I told my other husband - when he forgot something I said. He hated it and said it sets off his insecurities. He really is funny about other men and sees friendly funny conversation as flirting. But I'm quite a friendly and funny person, I also weirdly get lots of mums and dads in my life. When I used to go out to my local pre covid I had loads of pub dads. He hates this. I don't know whether I'm disrespectful for this type of behaviour or not. My last boyfriend before I got married found my pub dads hilarious and joked with them about it. I couldn't take h to my pub, A he doesn't like pubs but B he wouldn't like my friendliness. I know he'd feel uncomfortable and jealous. It's hard work, but then it might genuinely be me who is out of order and maybe I need to stop being so friendly and funny with older men (I also do this to older women and have work mums, maybe I'm really weird because my own parents were shit).

@SnowWhitesSM I’m not surprised by anything by oh have written. For those of us who are the other side of this (blinders are off), it’s the exact script I expected him to follow.

To be absolutely clear, IMO he does not feel guilt, nor is he sorry, nor is he thinking about change.
The only thing he is focussed on, is his discomfort. He is furious that he is in a one bed flat, with the issues you describe. He is furious that his comfortable life with you (and his narcissistic supply) has been removed.

He will now throw the kitchen sink at this to get back. Including all the tactics you have described and possibly more (including threats of committing suicide). Why? Because he wants his comfortable life back. It’s no more, no less. It’s about HIM! Not you or your happiness. His game right now is to do whatever it takes to get back in your home.

Of course he isn’t going to respect your 3 months. He knows exactly who he is and what he is doing (they all do). He knows how good he has it with you. His biggest fear is that in that 3 months, you will realise how good life is without him and actually leave for good. Or, you will use that time to get stronger/ erect boundaries - so he will find it harder to pull his stunts on you.

Don’t beat yourself up about Xmas day plans. We’ve all been there. God knows I allowed my sympathy / guilt button to be pushed dozens of times. I went back more times than I care to think about. And every time it was because he would refuse to leave me alone and eventually I would relent.

The thing with time and space is you do get stronger. So I would heal Away from him. Get to a much happier place. Then I would miss him/ us/ the good times. He would pop back up full of promises and being the nice man I met. And eventually I would reconcile. Only for the cycle to begin again.

Is the counsellor you’re seeing someone who is used to dealing with abusive individuals? It’s very important that they are. Counsellors who have no insight into these sorts of individuals can make these situations very dangerous. I remember one counsellor I went to see (who had also seen us as a couple) told me in a 121 session that my exp could see I was a good parent and was wanting to seek to learn from me and perhaps, if I had it in me, I could help him/ spend more time with the children. I had already relayed to her some incidents that would have been a red flag to a counsellor trained in abusive behaviours. He had played the sympathy card well in joint counselling and the counsellor responded to that. Vs listening to what I had told her was happening when he and I were alone.

It’s a journey and no one here can tell you how fast to go - you will do what is right for you.
My only advice is regardless of what he says, don’t let him move back in. Hold that one boundary firm.

It’s ridiculous that he’s only rented a one bedroom flat.

Honestly, that is clear evidence that he didn’t really believe you were serious about ending the relationship. So he went for something that he could play the miserable martyr in temporarily until he could persuade to to have him back.

Yep. He's thinking this is a few weeks or so. Because he knows you'll always fall for his performance. He's not taking you seriously, even now.

You will never be happy with this man, and you get one life.

snow defo make sure you have a councillor that is specialised in abuse. This is emotional abuse and can really warp your perspective on things.
Sassbot is so right here and I'm literally wanting to jump on your DH head.

Not all councillors are made equal and actually I'm really wary of recommending joint counselling with a emotionally abusive person. We strongly recommend against it because abusive people are smart and will use the counselling sometimes as another form to control the person. Tread so carefully here.

It's all about him, have you noticed the narrative. What about you, are you not entitled to be happy because he isn't ? When did he start believing that his happiness comes before yours ? And when did you start believing it too ? You are a person in your own right and don't have to apologise to anyone for not being on fire.

It's your house you are absolutely entitled to say I'm no longer looking after DSC when going through a break up, he made choices that lead him to this situation. He's deflecting on to you, rather than be truly accountable.

He's depressed so that's why he's not accountable,
you were "mean" to him so that's why he's not accountable.
He's having to live in one bedroom flat and you made him so he's not accountable.
Even him struggling to find paracetamol in his own flat is apparently your fault and he's not accountable.

It's worth notices he's already started to push back heavily on your boundaries you have set re counselling and Christmas.
This doesn't bode well for any meaningful change and I for one am so sorry because I think deep down you know this too and it hurts.

On a side note - If you do end up going back I want you to keep talking ok ? don't disappear and think anyone will rip you a new one for doing so. It's a dammed hard cycle to break, it may take a few attempts. We are here, we are proud of you.

You know what now the love bombing has stopped, what exactly are his good points now or in the last 12 months?

I'm not sure if he is martyring himself with the 1 bed, I packed up his and his sons stuff after being shouted at for 2 days and put it outside. He stayed with a mate and got the first flat available. He waived the landlord arranging a clean to get into the flat quicker and off his mates sofa. However, he will not let me forget that he's in a small dingy flat with no room and I packed his sons stuff up too. Apparently that's a line and even though I packed his things up his son should still have been given the option to stay with me. I will be really honest right now - I enjoyed packing his sons stuff up, I know my resentment is misplaced but I enjoyed it. Me and my friend were exclaiming how great it was that I'd never have to be his sons step parent again.

He is 100% playing the martyr and making choices as stage setting for that.

You packed his bags and told him to leave. Yes. But he played a big part in that and it’s won’t have been a huge surprise.

There were not only 1 bedroom flats available to him. In the same situation, you wouldn’t even have been looking at one bedroom flats. Would you? No. Thought not.

He didn’t have to waive the clean. He could have stayed in a hotel for an extra night. He chose to waive it so he could play the martyr.

This is why you really need counselling. He’s gaslighting the hell out of you. He had choices and he made these ones. On purpose.

I absolutely recognise this because my husband is doing exactly the same. Although he is worse (I got to enjoy a weekend with our baby in temporary homeless family accommodation before I could gain entry to my own house, for example).

But still he’s playing the martyr and pretending that he didn’t make an overt choice to rent a small house (it’s 3 bedrooms) in a village right next to the one his ex lives in. He complains he hates it out there. There is nothing to do. Claims there was nothing else he could have rented (in a whole city and the surrounding villages since he was looking there). Claims it’s so expensive and the petrol costs so much. Etc etc.

But he made his choices. He had other possibilities. The martyr act is all bullshit. They’re very convincing at it all. But be under no illusions that he made these choices on purpose.

And don’t feel guilty for feeling positive as you packed up his son’s things. When I got back into my house I was so pleased to reclaim the rooms that were shrines to my SC and to make the house feel like my home. It was removing the material traces of the problem with my husband’s attitude.

Counsellors who have no insight into these sorts of individuals can make these situations very dangerous. I remember one counsellor I went to see (who had also seen us as a couple) told me in a 121 session that my exp could see I was a good parent and was wanting to seek to learn from me and perhaps, if I had it in me, I could help him/ spend more time with the children. I had already relayed to her some incidents that would have been a red flag to a counsellor trained in abusive behaviours. He had played the sympathy card well in joint counselling and the counsellor responded to that. Vs listening to what I had told her was happening when he and I were alone.

This is very important advice.

I also have experience of extremely dangerous counsellors being taken in by abusive men. I actually complained to relate and the BACP about one. She was utterly appalling.

Why do you want to make a marriage work with someone that makes such bad choices all the time and expects you to sort it all out?