If you could start again what would you do differently?

[SnowWhitesSM]

Hi it's me again

Brief overview - I have two teens FT and h has his ds 8. He moved out a month or so ago. When we got married dh came down with a huge case of the nrp dad guilt which infected our marriage and caused lots of problems. I became very resentful of his parenting and his son. Hs parenting is pretty normal apart from he gives the decision making power to his son. I believed for ages that I was a monster and it was my fault but actually his processes are wrong. I desperately wanted us to be a team and for us to be a family but at the time hs guilt and anxiety couldn't allow this. I had never been as miserable as what I was when we were living together and his son was around. I cannot do that to myself again.

So h is desperate that we don't split up. He's starting a CBT group for his anxiety and wants us to go back to counselling. I really want my marriage to work. I want to include his son and I want us both to be a team around all the dc. I want the flipping Waltons ffs.

So we're going to go to marriage counselling and get back to basics. We're going to have a year apart to work on ourselves. He is not to blame for everything that went wrong but he's the root of it. I'm not saying that to shift blame as I am responsible for my own words and actions when feeling hurt/rejected ect but it all stems from his dad guilt and giving decision making power to his son.

What do I need from him to be happy being a step parent? What works for you? How do I explain how to be a team with him?

@SnowWhitesSM am glad you’re still here and sharing.

You are not a narcissist, nor are you the problem. This again is a classic part of the abuse cycle and he’s doing a few things here.

1. Mirroring and then devaluation.

So this is when in the beginning they mirror your behaviour. They like the things you do, they love that you are passionate about what you do…etc etc. Its a key part of how they ensnare you. My counsellor asked me to share the early months of our relationship - he asked ‘was it almost too good to be true?’. The answer was yes.
What they they do as part of their attempt to exert control/ be superior is start to criticise the very things they first liked about you. Devaluation stage. I’m career orientated and work hard. He never had an issue with it when we met. In the devaluation stages I was told: ‘you think youre the big I am’, ‘you’re so arrogant’’ ‘you may be the boss at work, don’t bring that attitude home’, ‘gods sake you’re obsessed with your work’….the list goes on.

2. Making you the problem. Classic deflection that escalates when you are starting to notice their behaviour. Thinks of it like flares deployed on a plane to evade a missile. His words are the flares to prevent your missile honing in on HIM.

I faced accusations of: anger issues, crazy, split personality, not normal, hormonal (he started to hammer that one as I had started to say I think was peri-menopausal). Then right towards the end, he no longer trusted me, what was I up to? (Which I now know mean HE had actually already lined up my replacement).

I’m not saying any of us: you or me are perfect by any means. But I can assure you that I am none of the above. I get angry from time to time, this does not mean I have anger issues. Etc.
i was also told i was a taker. My response? No, I’m matching your behaviours. So if you don’t like what you see in me, take a look in the mirror. I will give as much as you do. None. These accusations ramped up when I refused to budge two boundaries.

I can also assure you that the problem is not you. You tried to bend yourself pretzel style to accommodate/ compromise with him. What you have to understand is it’s never enough for them.

Finally, please don’t get frustrated with yourself. These people are very very manipulative. I said to my counsellor that I was so ashamed of myself that I needed to continue to have professional support to stay away from someone so deeply unhealthy. He simply said to me (and I’m sharing this so it helps you). You loved him, still do and that emotion is real. It’s ok for it to take time to let that go.
Second of all; we are dealing with men who have honed their manipulation into a fine art form. My counsellor said it was likely my exp has been like this since his teens, so we are talking over three decades of honing the art of manipulation. I alone stand no chance of dealing with that.

Keep posting here. Keep talking to us, especially over the festive period. He will absolutely knuckle down and try and get back in for the New Years. If you can, your one job is to make sure you don’t agree with that. Keep him in his flat and out of your home.

I will also add and I’ve been wondering whether to share this or not. Guard your children from him. These men are not beyond using the same tools on your children / his child to enlist them into his manipulation.

He will absolutely use your children to try and get to you. My exp (when desperate) did this. And it’s both dangerous and unhealthy. Your children will be oblivious to the conversations we are having here and blind to his behaviours. They will trust him because you as their parent have given him that role (trust me this was a hard one for me to stomach). So if he starts to seed over Christmas that he misses them, he misses all of you, reminds them of the fun times, tells them things he had planned for the new year for you all, perhaps even says to them that ‘mummy isn’t well, I need your help to come back so I can help look after her.’

Please understand that when I say, there is nothing these men won’t stoop to. And your children are the ultimate weapon he will try and use.

I have sons. When I realised just how damaged this man was, I immediately understood that he needed to be removed immediately. There is no way I could have a male role model with these behaviours around my sons. They have been the ultimate reason I have been able to hold firm now for months and I will remain firm. I haven’t been able to do it for me (yes, again that is mortifying to admit) but when I saw he was starting to try splitting behaviours with my children, he never took a step back into my house.

I have since learned that he did try and seed things with them. He had started (subtly) to ask them if they had ‘issues’ with my anger. I have only found out since I have been open (to some degree) about why we broke up. I simply said, he said some not nice things to me and that’s not ok. At which point my youngest told me, ‘yeah, he said something odd to me once about your anger. I didn’t understand, it was weird.’

Be really careful. How long is he coming for on Xmas day? Don’t leave your kids alone with him at all. What have they been told is going on?

Why don't I just cut it off

You can self reflect which shows you do not suffer from NPD. We are all a little narcisstic at times and there is a healthy level of narcissism that we should all aim for.

Can you block him on SM as you shouldn't have to sanction your photos, especially over Xmas. It took me a while to know my marriage was over, even though he had moved out. I guess we cling to hope.

Like you the marriage really should have been great, we had amazing children, a great home, similar interests, were both still attracted to each other BUT he was abusive. He had years of solo counselling but couldn't change as I believe his brain was hardwired so easily triggered.

@sassbott, reading that update was just like my life. If we had words he would speak to the children, mostly the youngest boy and say "sorry your mum is acting like this". I didn't know this until afterwards. He also accused me of what he was doing...."you have some lined up" (nope, but he did)

He is now involved with a woman with two sons. He loathes one, who is mostly at home but likes the one who stays away. It's such a clever approach as he can't he accused of disliking her children. He claims to have "justifiable" reasons why he dislikes the son, who has no choice but to live at home.

I don't believe he's been abusive to me on purpose, I think being with me has uncovered his childhood traumas and brought them out into the light. His protective mechanisms that he's learnt as a child aren't helpful and he's very ashamed of the behaviours towards me.
It's sounds like it's nothing to do with you - it's all to do with his childhood. He needs to sort that out. That and child rearing lessons.

I think you want to believe you can fix him with your nurturing, that it's not his fault so you should put up with it.

He isn't interested in fixing himself he just wants you to be his whipping boy.

@Fireflygal it’s spooky isn’t it? Like they’ve been on a class together. He too focussed on my youngest who was more naive and trusting. My eldest would have told him to take a flying jump.
I’ve since also realised that my eldest tolerated him for me, so long as I was happy he stayed out of it. Privately he thought he was bit of an entitled bloke who had a very high opinion of himself and what others should do, which was highly hypocritical given he barely parented his own kids. 😂😂😂😂 (from the mouths of babes).

I think he tried a few times with the eldest and got such a robust response back he didn’t try again. Interesting that he had these convos with my youngest when he managed to get the two of them alone. Which was so rare as he was never around my kids when i wasn’t there. It would have taken real and deliberate effort to get my youngest alone. In order to have these conversations.

Makes me furious to think about how low abusers can sink. I’m just so grateful that by this point I had already ruthlessly ringfenced my home, my kids and my finances. Which is why his behaviour escalated so much and attacks / varying means of attack ramped.

He wanted into my home. He definitely wanted my money. He wanted my lifestyle. I was simply the mecanism to allow him a really nice home/ family/ holidays etc. When i denied him those things and simply offered myself as a partner, then the devaluation and attacks against me ramped.

I could not see it at the time. It felt so chaotic and jumbled and hard. Now? It’s crystal clear and so obvious. Deeply painful in equal measure as I am coming to terms with the fact that he didn’t love me. Never did.

But you know what? I did. I have some good memories. And have learned and grown so much.

I have no idea what the future holds. Will I meet someone again? How will I trust someone again? What was broken in me that I stayed? So much more work to be done.

@SnowWhitesSM, we’re here for you. And if I post anything that isn’t helpful/ relevant then please do tell me.

OP

Cancel his and SS invite for Christmas.

He is abusive to you. That’s a much bigger deal than disinviting someone from Christmas.

You will also see his reaction. The very fact that you are afraid of his reaction to that tells you everything.

Sorry to be so simplistic, I do agree with PP’s analysis.

Cancel their coming for Christmas.

@sassbott no your posts are always very helpful. They also make me feel less like an idiot. Whilst I'm not a high earner I am a middle earner and have a professional job. I keep feeling like something is wrong with me to end up in a Jeremy Kyle show but actually I'm not the only one who has been fooled by a man like this.

I do think there's something I need to work on in terms of why I don't just block him and cut him out. In one way I'm really happy and excited to be single again and the other side of me goes NOPE you are too old to be single and I want him to still be chasing me. I think I am giving him mixed msgs as I feel afraid to start over, be single again and have everyone in my life feel sorry for me.

Argh my heads pickled.

@SnowWhitesSM
Forget him and work on learning to be comfortable with your own company. If he were the wrong person for you, why should anyone feel sorry for you? If you had a tumor that was cause you pain and you were able to have it successfully removed, people would be happy for you. This situation is no different.

People will feel sorry for you, if a need to be pitied is the image and role that you project. Are you missing having a man in your life or are you missing having that man in your life?

Your therapist needs to be helping you realize that your ability to have a happy and satisfying life is not tied to having or not having a partner. Maybe some of your angst is tied to the need to occasionally revert to those teenage feelings and activities. Maybe you feel that you need to be dating/ going stesdy/having a steady partner, etc , much like in your teenage years.

Accept the fact that the grown up you can and will move on without this particular man. Stop wasting your time trying to analyze or understand his motives and actions. It is sufficient to know that it was not working for you. As long as you need to analyze his actions ( and truth be told you can never know with any certainty - no matter what anyone tells you), this just becomes another way to keep him in your life. You will only be free when the reason that it did not work no longer matters. You will be free when your days are no longer wasted trying to understand him. Move your focus to your actions and behaviors and taking control of you own life. His life, his child, his family , and his motivations belong solely to him and they should have no space in your head .

Use this new year to find the new you.

Snow you know that voice in your head that's "saying you can't be single. Your too old"

In whos voice does that appear ? Is it yours or is it someone else's.. worth noting. I said a similar thing to a pal of mine and my friend laughed and said that's defo your ex husband in your head. He's been in your ear so long you have started repeating it like a parrot.

Felt quite mad to realise my head had been infiltrated with a load of his garage .. making less room for my own thoughts.
Try and figure out which words are truly your and which have come from him.

Also my therapist said if you worry your a narcissist or like acting like then your not one. He said they simply can't do that because of their medical condition. But everyone has a dose of it, but not the whole personality disorder which is a different ball game. Those people wouldn't be even able to tolerate the the thought for a long second.

You have had some really good advice ! Keep coming back. Keep talking.

@sassbott your ex using the kids just made me feel so uneasy I had to reread. I'm not shocked but god that's such a violation of trust.

Another point to consider is that these men do like to use the courts to beat into submission (all wrapped in a nice costly bow so you can't escape) if all you lose fails to retrieve you, hopefully this won't be a issue ? My advice start any proceedings short sharp and quick.

@candlelightsatdawn, I agree with the need to get an agreement sorted. Ex H practiced a scorched earth policy - eradicating all chance of any relationship post separation. I never ever thought he would be capable.

Thanks all for your support. Hope you're all having a lovely Xmas.

He and dss have just left after coming for Christmas Dinner. I don't feel any real regret that we're not together anymore. I'm glad he came for Christmas as it made me think - thank god they've gone rather than be sad. He's trying so hard to be nice but I'm so full of resentment that it won't ever work. I just can't get over how he's treated me and my dc. I was Christmas food shopping with him yesterday and all I could think of was the year before when I did all the December shopping and he said he'd cover the Xmas food shop and made me feel like shit for putting nice food in the trolley. I think I'm actually being quite horrible to him now because of my resentment. It's not healthy!

Me and dd are watching the fat man. Ds is playing on his new pc. I'm ok. I feel more sad about being on my own then being without him. It doesn't work. He's not who I need in a husband. I need someone who's not a dick to me when he's upset. I need someone who wants to be all in with me. That sees me and him as an us. There's a tiny part of me that goes - he gets it now, just be nice to him and he'll be nice to you and just do what he wants and we'll be happy and I'll be loved. But I know I won't be happy. I've tried so hard for the last year to swallow myself and be like that but it's not worked.

Sorry for the self indulgence! This year I'm going to do my therapy, build my self worth and love myself like I needed him to love me. I need to let go of this resentment towards him and move on with my life. I can't be a stepmum again though. I cant put myself through the ex and dc drama and guilt again.

Please do more than weekly sessions for a few weeks (no joint ones) and tell him you're done, it's over and your decision is final.

I think you need to rip the plaster off so you can detach and move on.

I agree @RandomMess this agreeing to work on things then regretting it, then agreeing, then regretting is just too much on both of us. I feel like I'm hurting him now by giving in to him when he's upset and wants to work on things.

He uses this tactic to worm his way back in without actually making the changes needed.

He is still trampling over your boundaries.

Tell him a week without ANY contact - bet you he won't.

I bet he won't either @RandomMess

All he's done is trample over my boundaries and request for space - and then he complains at me when I'm upset or annoyed about things he says or does. But what he says and does is really annoying!

Tell him via text then just block him on everything for 6 weeks?

I will @RandomMess

@SnowWhitesSM I always felt like that when my exp left with his children. I would breathe a sigh of relief. With more time and space the only person who was at fault was my exp.

His children were an extension of him. And since he was so entitled and had a high opinion of himself, he extended that to his children. Any perceived slight (such as not dropping everything to cater to a whim), would result in a completely disproportionate response.

It was another mecanism of control. Hidden behind welfare for his children. Horrible behaviour that takes healthy family dynamics and turns them upside down.

What are your thoughts? How are you going to handle this? Because he isn’t just going to magically respect your boundaries? The hard work is also only just beginning - now you have to be strong enough to stay away.

@sassbott h also sees his son as an extension of himself. I knew that but didn't clock that the slightest perceived slight was so personal to him because of that.

I'm not really sure. I watched alain botton on YouTube yesterday and in his lecture he talks about everyone being crazy and the notion of romanticism. I'll link it below, it's really interesting. I definitely have the notion of romanticism however, he also says to drill down to what exactly is making you unhappy. Is it that it's easy to blame all of lifes unhappiness on your partner or is your partner what causes the unhappiness. He also talks about types and says realistically you're not going to be able to change them but you work out your reactions to your type.

I drilled down exactly what makes me unhappy and it's not my life and life stresses, or even hs reaction to stresses, it's not even h as a person. Step parenting his son makes me miserable, feel voiceless and inconsidered. Carrying his mental load in my home when he doesn't carry any of mine to make up for it makes me miserable, having my dc feel like I'm not emotionally available to them because of these stresses makes me miserable. These things aren't him as such but they're part of him and immutable. I have to learn to accept that and move on. I will not be happy because of those stressors. They are stressors that aren't going to change. I don't really know how I'm going to be strong enough to withstand his pressures but I am going to block him. I need space and time to get my shit together and feel happy again. I can't see any other way then to block and petition for divorce.

I will pour myself into my dc, my work, exercise, friends and family. It will be very shit for me if we go back into lockdown, I'm a very sociable person, but I know what to do to keep myself happy so my sort of plan is just to concentrate on things that make me happy.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPOuIyEJnbE

@SnowWhitesSM feel free to DM at any time. And I do mean that.

I started another thread as my ex contacted me last night and it hit me hard. I warned you that your ex could (and would) try and push your buttons. I didn’t prepare myself for the fact that my ex would do the same. I feel very sad and bereft today. It’s why he did what he did.

Re the dynamic and stressors. I can only talk to what I experienced. The stressors around contact with his children all directly linked back to him. Not the kids - they took the lead from him.

He didn’t give them a routine I understood. He didn’t treat the children equally - his were expected to take priority, over everyone else’s needs. It wasn’t relaxing family time - everyone was there to cater to his children (heaven help you if you didn’t). There was simply no healthy groundedness. He would espouse about how much his children meant to him and their time with him meant to him - and yet he would consistently seek to ensure others were around to ‘spend time’ (aka help him and keep him company because it was boring and hard work).

I once asked him to list what he finds annoying about his children. Silence. He couldn’t come up with one trait. Think about that. Everyone healthy and with a sense of reflection can comment on this, he couldn’t. He couldn’t say one negative thing as he viewed that as criticism. And the people I was asking him to criticise were extensions of him and therefore I was asking him to reflect on himself, his behaviours. Not one word. I asked him a few weeks later. Still nothing.

Total and utter narcissism and complete inability to reflect on himself, his parenting and therefore his children.

That’s what created a very unhealthy and stressful dynamic around his kids. He caused it.
His children left with me knew how to behave. They were fine. His parenting of them (and subsequent attention seeking behaviours) were not.

For me, with time. I was fine being a pseudo SM. I was fine being another adult (non parent) in their life. My issue was him and the tensions/ dynamics he caused.

One piece of good advice I read:

"Never make yourself small, to make someone else feel big."

If you find yourself in that space, it's time to exit. It works for me in both relationships and work situations. I'm now reflecting on why I ended up in that kind of relationship, as it's a very unhealthy dynamic.

Thank you @sassbott I will, we regularly SM board posters need our own group chat really

I will go and look for your thread now. I hope you're ok though?

H was able to voice his annoyances over dss. He hates loud noises so dss chatting to his friends on fortnight annoys the crap out of him. Dss answering back and general ungratefulness and bad manners also annoys him, and his eating. Actually he gets more annoyed about dss behaviours then I do/did. Maybe he doesn't see him as quite the extention your ex sees his dc. His issue was when I was annoyed about the same behaviours, he used to say that he's his dad so they would annoy him more then they would me.. but I don't have the love to get over those annoyances that all dc can create. His parenting around those annoyances made them doubly irritating to me.

@Starseeking I have heard thar before and agree with it. The silly thing is, I dimmed my own light!