Small DC STILL being hurt by older DSC, it's not really normal is it?

[MyDDtheStrawberryThief]

My two little ones age 2 and 3 keep getting hurt when DSC ages 8 and 9 are playing with them. They are too rough and have no concept of responsible play, choosing to play fight with (and around) them as though they were the same age.

This is particularly the case with eldest DSS (9) who picks them up and spins them around, plonking them down onto the sofa or throwing them down onto it.

After a particularly scary incident earlier in the year where DD (then age around 16 months) was dropped onto her head by eldest DSS onto the floor from his standing height as part of a "game" I imposed a blanket rule that they were not to pick them up again. I posted about this on here at the time.

They conveniently forget this despite constant firm reminders from me and I ended up having a row with OH about It after a further two incidents yesterday (and one last week where DD was whipped with a toy stethoscope which left a bruise because DSS was wafting it around near her)

DS was hurt yet again yesterday by eldest DSC body slamming him into the sofa yesterday 'playing' which resulted in him thumping his head into the hard frame on the back of the. DS was just sat on the sofa with his tablet minding his own business. This resulted in a 30 minute long meltdown where he was inconsolable and couldn't compose himself. He was in pain and his way of dealing with that was sadly to bang his own head repeatedly on the floor whilst screaming (he's autistic)

DD also got whacked square in the face by their football when we were at the park because they thought it was a good idea to blast the ball about where small children were playing, in the direction of said children.

My OH meekly addresses such things by asking them to apologise and be more careful because, in his mind, they are accidents and accidents happen.

If there is a particularly bad incident (the stethoscope is a recent example) OH will get 'no nonsense' about safety for all of 5 minutes but no real consequences are imposed, on this occasion youngest DSS just shouted at him then sulked. He came out of his mood after 10 minutes, made up with OH and all was forgotten.

When I was rowing about it with him today he said they don't mean to hurt them and it's just kids being kids for the most part although he can understand why I'm angry and he doesn't like seeing the smaller DC hurt either.

He said he doesn't know what the answer is short of telling them they can't play full stop and have to just remain seated (he was being sarcastic obviously) as he's told them so many times already and if they don't listen or retain what he's saying then he's at a loss because being boisterous and rambunctious is essentially who they are and the only alternative is to have them sat down playing on screens

Im expecting a baby next month and to be honest I'm concerned about baby being hurt aswell. It hasn't always been this way they have gotten much 'worse' with age.

So tell me, is all of this is par for the course? Do you think it's to be expected that younger siblings will end up hurt by older siblings?

I'm at the stage now where I don't feel comfortable leaving them unsupervised and that isn't ideal because like every other parent, I can't keep my eyes on them for every second they're here, much less with a new baby.

I think I'm prepared to end my relationship over this, accidents or not.

AIBU?

If I was you, I would set very clear rules about what type of games they could play with the little ones and say that they can only play those games, when I was in the room....otherwise the older ones should leave the little kids alone and play by themselves away from where the younger ones are.

That's the only way I would allow them to play with the little ones.
They're clearly very rough and that's so typical of many boys tbh....

Not married no, engaged to be but I have no intention of following it through anymore.

I'm financially independent and our home is rented in my name only.

Accidents happen, but older kids need to be taught to be gentle around their much smaller siblings. Like the body slamming incident. No 9 year old should behave like that with a toddler!!

@ANameChangeAgain

Your DH's children are violent bullies and your DH is doing nothing to protect the toddlers. If this carries on SS will be asking some serious questions.

That's exactly what I said about SS!

Of course he thinks I'm over reacting and that SS wouldn't take my kids away because of accidental injuries caused by other siblings.

What does he know? I would have to prove they were accidental injuries for a start.

The older children are definitely of an age to understand that the younger children are not their playthings to throw around/slam into. That younger children need to be treated gently.

Your DH is absolutely minimising this. It's not normal or a case of accidents happen.

It's the result of him not parenting appropriately. It's that simple.

Allowing one child to hurt another through a lack of consequences is utterly negligent.

I'd be in the mindset he can ship up or ship out.

Leaving will only mean that your children get to interact with their siblings when you are not present. It is unlikely that a Court will deny your husband access to his children based upon sibling rough housing .
Both sets of children need to have designated but separate areas in which they are allowed to play. If the children are not harming their much younger sibling in the mom's home, it might be difficult to prove or maintain that there is any particular intent to harm either child.

As difficult as it may be, you and your husband need to enforce physical boundaries and separation until these kids are older.

It is not a matter of enforcing consequences after the fact. It is a necessity to be proactive in preventing these events. That means keeping them apart even if that imposes levels of inconvenience on the adults in the household.

I am always amazed that people allow young kids to pick up toddlers under any circumstances. The likelihood of unintentional accidents are risk imposed upon both the lifter and the child being lifted, and there is never a reason that justifies that level of risk to either child.

This diligence is just what is required in a household that includes several young children and particularly when there is a special needs child in the mix.

Not easy options but necessary options given the physical layout of your home, the ages and numbers of children involved, and the limitations and restrictions that come with a special needs child in the mix.

I have never until yesterday wondered whether any of it was deliberate as we had such a good relationship and they appeared to dote on the younger ones.

They're not generally naughty, least of all the eldest who if anything is always eager to please and not get in trouble because he absolutely hates being told off and gets into a total state when he is.

At some point though something had to give and I just can't put up with it any more whether it's accidental or not my kids are at risk and yes PP was right I'm failing them by remaining in this situation.

You are absolutely not over reacting. Rough play like this is not normal. Even when siblings fight each other they should have a natural instinct to be careful around little ones.

Leaving will only mean that your children get to interact with their siblings when you are not present. It is unlikely that a Court will deny your husband access to his children based upon sibling rough housing

That was something I worried about. If I can't rely on him to keep them safe when I'm on the scene I have no faith he'll do it if he has them all on his own

How much time do the children spend together? Is it only weekends?

The thing is, even if we accept his argument that the older ones are simply incapable of playing safely with and around the younger ones - which we probably don't, but pretending we do - then his job, as a parent, has to be mitigate that risk. If they can't be expected to not kick the ball near the toddlers then he has to either move the toddlers away by finding an activity elsewhere to engage them in or shield them; if they can't be trusted to play in the house near the toddlers then he has to hover and be constantly within arm's length to intervene. Like you'd do it it were a toddler biting another child (though hopefully you'd also impose consequences there, too!), or a dog, or some other situation where you can't expect the 'hazard' to self-regulate. It would be hard work and not much fun for him, but what he's currently doing is saying that his older children can't self-regulate and he's too lazy to actively intervene and so the little ones will just get hurt.

At 8 and 9, they're old enough to know not to play rough. My 6 year old nephew is so gentle with my dd, as he knows she smaller than him and can't handle 'rougher'.
You absolutely have an OH problem. You really need to drill it into him that this is becoming a massive problem with your small children getting hurt. If he can't be firm with his older children, then he clearly isn't that bothered.

Leaving will only mean that your children get to interact with their siblings when you are not present. It is unlikely that a Court will deny your husband access to his children based upon sibling rough housing
This makes me wonder whether a word with your health visitor would help, so there is something on record. Once you speak to a professional about the hurting though, there will be no going back, you'll need to have your plan in place to leave.

Contact has changed a few times over the course of the past 18 months of covid, they were here more when the schools were closed and over the summer holidays but generally it's just sleeping over on the weekend and coming for tea during the week which is what it has reverted back to now.

He's asleep on the sofa and I'm in bed, stressed. We've barely spoken a word after it came to a head today and I said enough is enough.

Even if he does agree to 'helicopter parent' around them it won't last, it never does.

I simply couldn't manage to keep my eye on all of them at the same time, every time they come, especially as I'll have a newborn to look after too in a few short weeks.

He/they will have to go

I have tried so many times to get through to him about it, so many chances.

I hope that telling him to leave and to have contact elsewhere until he does, concentrates his mind. Obviously, it would be better if you partner started to take this seriously. Let us know how it goes.

What you are describing isn't normal even my DD who had problems self regulating due to SEN and can occasionally be impulsive & aggressive doesn't do this kind of behaviour.
Not that she would she be allowed to.

It must be so stressful for you. We have to keep an eye on DD of she is in a certain mood but luckily it's not all the time and is predictable and there's warning signs.

I'm going to speak to him in the morning and echo everything I have said here. The only difference this time is that I'm saying this is the end of the relationship rather than just venting my spleen about how things need to change.

Not looking forward to it at all as he has a way of making me feel like I'm being horrible about his kids, but these replies will help me stand firm. I'm not.

I would have one more conversation and agree with him what the consequences of any future issues would be for the DSC

Then he sits down with them, explains their behaviour is no longer going to be tolerated and there will be consequences. He then needs to carry them out

If he is not prepared to do that then he needs to understand he will be leaving and then having to find time to see five children elsewhere, and on separate days for those older ones and the ones with you

I guess them being at yours for only short periods makes it harder to correct this behaviour.
Any idea if they are the same with their other half sister? Could you talk to their mum? Or is that a bad idea?

From what you say the DSC sound like they have no clue how to behave around small kids. And I think your OH minimizing these accidents really doesn't help. @Hardbackwriter said it nicely they need to learn to self-regulate. And that is a job for for your OH and their mum mostly!

Their DM doesn't like me (and the feeling is mutual) so having a productive chat with her isn't likely.

From what I'm told, although only second hand information from OH, they are similar with their other toddler sibling and that toddler sibling enjoys the rough housing

I can't see their mum allowing her to get bashed on the head constantly though so that's a moot point from OH really.

You’re not. He’s being a horrible father to both sets of children and doesn’t seem to care at all.

It’s our job to teach our children how to behave towards others. He’s failing. I remember the thread about your DD being dropped on her head and it’s astounding that it wasn’t enough to stop him in his tracks and start doing some fucking parenting.

But it didn’t, so you know he won’t ever change and this is the time to call it a day.

I really feel for you but you’ve got to follow this through. You will never forgive yourself if you don’t.

I agree with you Anne.

It's quite frankly appalling that I find myself in the same position now, after that.

If that wasn't enough to invoke change then nothing ever will be.

I'm going to do it for my children's sake. I'll be painted as the bad one but so be it.

I'm going to try and get some sleep, not that I'm expecting to sleep very well. I'm a ball of nervous energy. I'll re read these replies in the morning so I don't lose focus.

A suggestion.

You say the children's mum says you can't discipline them.

We see a lot of that here on MN.

Frankly I think it's absolutely appalling advice and expectation from the other parent.

It's my home as much DH's and all the children and there was NO WAY I was going accept that if SC behaved badly that I was essentially powerless to respond to it.

I actually think this issue is one of the biggest reasons why second relationships break down. The fact of the matter is what their mum wants when the children are in their fathers and your care is non of her business (obviously assuming the welfare of all children is a priority for all) and it's up to him to parent with you in the way you both agree is to the benefit of everyone in the household. The same as it is when the children are in her care.

The way DH and I managed this is that we had house rules and consequences (not needed now as the children are adults).

Simple things (and age appropriate) like keeping your room tidy, basic chores, respect/care for others and their property, sitting at the table to eat together, nice table manners, being polite etc.

Each house rule had a consequence if broken. Again age appropriate. So time outs, extra chores, loss of pocket money, revoked internet/games console access - you get the drift. All written down and clearly explained in a table/chart in the kitchen and we had a 3 strikes rule with "bigger" consequences for breaking the same rule 3 times in the same week.

These house rules applied to everyone and agreed by me and DH so when broken it didn't matter who applied the "consequences" because the other parent/step parent would have done exactly the same (and the reality was all it meant was putting a mark on the chart).

I think a system like this might work for you, but your DH needs to be fully on board in following through with consequences and potentially having your back with their mother if the children complain you'd told them off.

Possibility?