Fiancé wants to completly withdraw from DSD's

[45thighs123]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone has experienced this. My fiance is so alienated from his first two kids aged 5 and 7 he now just wants to withdraw completely.

We live 250 mile away. Contact has been sporadic over the last three years and he left the ex 4.5 years ago he does have to move heaven and earth to get contact time . He just says he cannot deal with the high conflict anymore. We have a one year old together and he's amazing with his son and we have great family time . I'm at a loss , it's his choice so what am I meant to think ??!?? I'm so conflicted. I get on with DSD but to be honest I have not seen them very much. He pays maintenance and always has. He said when they are older he will be there. But I've never seen a parent emotionally withdraw before. And when I see him with our son , I always ask well could you leave him ?He says it's different circumstances, different partner and he's committed to this family life. He has deep regrets over having his first two so young and he didn't want the second to be blunt he said he knew by then the relationship was doomed and bringing another baby into it was a massive mistake. But he's still responsible. Should I just accept his decision and move on?

You may find yourself in the situation one day.
No, I really won’t.
If I could count on one hand just how many people spout this crap, until they find themselves in the situation. Then they expect their every wish granted, and every order obeyed.

Don’t judge everyone else by your own standards.

*OP, in response to whether you should break up your  happy family, the answer to that is that it depends on what kind of person you are.

A decent human being wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who was prepared to have A, dumped his children from an early age, and B, not be bothering with them any more because he sees the whole thing as too much agro*

This sort of comment is just so unrealistic. She has a child with him. Not everyone will be able to hold principle above the practicalities of their life.

@AlternativePerspective

You may find yourself in the situation one day. No, I really won’t. If I could count on one hand just how many people spout this crap, until they find themselves in the situation. Then they expect their every wish granted, and every order obeyed.

Don’t judge everyone else by your own standards.

That's a teensy weensy ironic post you've made there. Can you spot the irony? No? Didn't think so.

It is interesting to suggest that having a child can create a need to put practicality above principle as a justification in a situation created by someone who abandoned his children out of a personal preference for ease over principle. Obviously , having a child does not factor significantly in everyone's decision making.

You may find yourself in the situation one day.If I could count on one hand just how many people spout this crap, until they find themselves in the situation. Then they expect their every wish granted, and every order obeyed

There are thousands of women out there happy to compromise their own futures by turning a blind eye to poor behaviour towards an ex and previous children. It’s mainly maintenance, but frequently also an expectation that regular contact isn’t necessary or is something to be changed at the drop of a hat.

As for find myself in that situation. No. I have been single for many years. I am still single because there is no way I am compromising my children’s future in the way their father has. Sure, I’ve dated and had serious relationships but sooner or later, all the fun, charming, seemingly decent men I’ve met seem to have had an ex in the background who is compromising more than she should. One thing I was very clear about post divorce is my standards would remain high and I wouldn’t expect anything less than I was prepared to give myself. Life is too short for that shit.

@GertietheGherkin understands the legal process, so I assume works in this sphere.

Most people, if they're reasonable, don't end up in court for contact arrangements of children. Court is normally a last resort.

@Kendodd you clearly have something that riles you about this situation but the reality is you do need representation when you go to court. You can't gather all the evidence involved and work to pay the fees. It's impossible.

Three hours of my solicitors time is over £1k. Barristers are 1.5k - 2k per day. Average wage is what? 29k? Less? Then people have to pay housing, etc. Most people would need to look for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

You do not NEED representation. It is nice to have. It is not helpful to say you NEED representation because then swathes of people who could have represented themselves (like the OPs partner) give up before they have even started.

Unless there are significant safeguarding issues there is rarely a lot of evidence to gather (unless you’re submitting reams of unnecessary paperwork) and with the current court delays you’re going to have plenty of time to submit it.

You could also opt for a direct access barrister which means you pay ~£1500 for a hearing. You can have one at all hearings or just the crucial ones. You then save money doing the paperwork yourself.

This thread really evidences that in these situations, there are really two sides to the story.
On one hand, the dad who never got involved with his kids from birth, probably left it all to the mum to deal with, ultimately leading to him never really bonding with the children and the breakup of the relationship. After the breakup, he remains as unreliable as before, doesn't show up on contact days, make promises he doesn't keep, mess the kids about. When they are with him, they never do much, he doesnt really know how to interact with them and can't wait for the weekend to be over to send them back to their mum. They are upset, fed up, and ultimately, start begging their mum for not going there. Mum is upset on their behalf and start to mess about with contact too. Dad sees less and less of the kids, can't be bothered with the arguments, has moved on and realised that life would be much easier without his first kids in his life anyway. Decides to stop contact. Blames mum and accuses her of parental alienation.

Or you have mum who was always controlling, constantly interfered with dad looking after the babies/kids because he didn't do it right. Consider that he is not much important to their upbringing. Has an affair, leaves dad, decide that new man would make a much better dad for the kids, comes up with many excuses as to why access can't take place. Does everything to encourage the kids to consider new man as their dad, telling them that he is a much better person and can give them a lot more. Play happy family together. Dad goes to court, she adheres for a couple of months, then makes it all difficult again, on and on again, until dad doesn't have the funds any longer, recognises that the kids are struggling emotionally, as well as with the distance since mum and new man moved 200 miles away.

Two totally different scenarios. Sadly, although I do not doubt at all that the second one happens, too often, i think the first is more common. My instinct from what OP has written is that her OH does fall under that category.

The second scenario (including the affair) was my DH. Except she didn’t move 200 miles away and his parents were able to fund court. She sticks to the order now, though she still tries to be obstructive when she can.

What evidence is needed for a court application for child contact?

I'd assume a record of attempted contact (texts, emails to the RP), maybe proof that the NRP had been having regular contact to a certain point (time stamped photos, receipts?)

I'd assume it helpful to have statements to show regular maintenence payments in place, and maybe evidence of savings made in the child's name.

But what would actually be needed? Unless going for full custody (I know there's a more up to date term, just can't think of it), there's no need for reports from cafcass, doctors etc?

@vivainsomnia There are more scenarios than that.

Lots don't end up in Court but some do due to one or both parents trying to control the other separated parent.

If there’s a hostile ex then it’s very likely that CAFCASS will be involved.

That doesn’t really increase the evidence though - CAFCASS being involved. They do their investigation and write a report. That drags out the process but doesn’t really increase the paperwork required by the NRP.

I had a cousin go through all of this. Multiple court visits to get contact, said ex was being obstructive etc. Both parties were on state benefits so it didn't cost either a penny (this was some years ago). In the end contact was ordered at a contract centre. My cousin (who had taken ex to court to force contact) attended once then decided he didn't like the contact centre so didn't go again, I don't think he's seen them since. His kids will be adults now.

@DumplingsAndStew when you first apply to Court the only evidence you need is to show:

1. That you can't attend mediation to one of the reasons listed on the form, OR,
2. That you have attended mediation but it either:

a. Hasn't worked so no agreement has been reached which the mediator needs to verify, OR, b. An agreement was reached but the other parent has refused repeatedly to stick to the agreement.

My DP fell into category 2b.

Most of the other parents I personally know who ended up in Court fell into category 2a.

In my DP's case and a couple of other cases once the other parent realised Court action was going to happen, they started to claim domestic abuse thinking it would help them control the situation.

All that happened regardless of whether they involved the police and/or family court was that the Child Arrangement Order became restrictive on the amount of contact and the style of communication they can have with the other parent.

I say other parent because while in my DP's case and most of the other cases I know it was the mother doing this, in one case the father tried this.

@WhoisRebecca

If there’s a hostile ex then it’s very likely that CAFCASS will be involved.

CAFCASS get involved anyway simply because you don't need to go to Court if you both agree a Parenting Plan and you both stick to it.

CAFCASS make recommendations to the Court but in the cases I know about their recommendations were ignored. Either because one or both parents were represented by barristers, or the judges (or magistrates) decided they knew better.

Barristers try and get both parents to agree to limit the time spent in front of the judge.

As a PP pointed out you can do everything yourself apart from representing yourself in some hearings including the final hearing.

CAFCASS do initial checks (police and children’s services) but only get fully involved if a wishes and feelings report or section 7 report is required.

I know there’s been talk of parental alienation on this thread but I just don’t think a NRP can claim parental alienation if they don’t even try to go to court. The NRP has to take responsibility for their part in the dynamic and if they’re so passive as to not even attempt court, they are clearly part of the problem. Parental alienation is serious, and frankly it pisses me off when people bandy the term around when they haven’t even put basic effort in to get things resolved. I think as another poster said - sometimes it’s not even about hoping to actually get contact out of it; but being able to say to your child when they’re an adult that you tried everything.

@RedMarauder

So an application for contact doesn't cost more than the initial filing fee of £200something?

Plus the fee for a MIAM (initial mediation information session) if needed, yes. And for people on a low income mediation may be free and the court fee may be reduced or no cost at all.

There are more scenarios than that
Of course there are. I was just citing the two most extreme cases of one or the other parent causing the non contact.

A very common reason is when the rp claims the nrp is abusive and it is not in the best interest of the kids to see them. Considering how subjective the notion of abuse is, it is no surprise these often go unsorted with conflict never ending.

I think its sad and pathetic that some NRPs won't even take the first (very inexpensive) step, instead bleating that it'll cost thousands and be too stressful.

In our situation, my ex husband visited a solicitor to push for contact after the DC chose not to see him for a while following an incident where he assaulted one of them and scared the shit out of them.

I received the letter, asked the kids if they wanted to see him at all and they said maybe someday. So I visited my own solicitor and said this. We wrote back to his solicitor suggesting a familiar place to the children and handover by a familiar person (they are both autistic). He refused that, saying he would only accept it at a children's centre. Despite the staff at the centre telling him they probably weren't the right environment for them for multiple reasons, I agreed to this and dates were arranged.

He didn't show up to the first session. He didn't respond to phone calls (from the centre, from me, from the children (yes they were old enough to have their own phones at this time and I encouraged them to stay in touch with him this way)).

We persevered and he turned up to the following session. After a handful of sessions where he would turn up late or need to leave early, the kids were losing interest and after a discussion with the centre staff, it was decided that the children would just get in touch with him when they wanted to, and that he was to keep in touch with them via phone and suggest days out etc to see if they were up for it.

At this same time, I was going through a difficult time, and had reached out to social services for support. They insisted to me that my ex husband was willing and able to help care for the children, that he understood their needs and that after speaking to him they couldn't understand why I was "preventing him from seeing the children".

Three years have passed. He's seen them once. He sends a text on their birthdays and Christmas. He puts money in my bank for their birthday and Christmas, but doesn't even pop a card through the door, despite living 15 minutes away and regularly being at his girlfriends round the corner.

He walked past our teenage daughter last week, then when she text him to say hi he said he hadn't recognised her as she's getting so grown up.

He still tells people I have alienated the kids and stop him from seeing them. The kids are well aware that if they want to see him, I am more than happy to drop them off, pick them up, make arrangements, fund, or whatever they need to make this happen.

He doesn't know them. The eldest texts him sometimes about computer games, which sometimes takes him a few days to respond to. The youngest couldn't care less at the moment. He was fairly disinterested in them whilst younger, but did "his duty" by seeing them, but hasn't bonded with them really, especially the youngest.

Yet he still tells people I'm the bad guy. That I've prevented him seeing them. He is delusional.

@DumplingsAndStew the parents should go to mediation first unless they can't for any of the reasons listed on the form.

Mediation doesn't have to be the sort where the parents are in the same room together. It can be shuttle mediation, where the parents are in different rooms and the mediator goes between them, or on something like Zoom.

If the mediator assesses after an initial meeting with one of them that mediation in any shape or form is unsuitable for the parents situation the mediator will sign the case off as being unsuitable for mediation. Then an application for a Child Arrangements Order can be made to the Court with the form the mediator signs.

If mediation works - and it does in some cases - it saves a lot of money with legal fees and the stress in going to Court.

Thanks @RedMarauder

I would guess that in many instances, even with fraught relationships, contact can be sorted before getting to the "expensive court battle" stage, with mediation, and - in situations like mine - where the NRP is claiming an issue with preventing contact, that isn't even accurate.

To not at least take the first step towards contact is, in my opinion, cowardly and neglectful.

@DumplingsAndStew the kids are old enough to have contact with him themselves and he is often around the corner. Those people around him that know this are just listening to him and thinking he's a dick.

[quote RedMarauder]@DumplingsAndStew the kids are old enough to have contact with him themselves and he is often around the corner. Those people around him that know this are just listening to him and thinking he's a dick.[/quote]
Absolutely. Those who need to know the situation know it, those who don't know - or believe - don't matter.

I do wonder if he mentioned DD texting him last week to the gf and admitted he hadn't recognised her. Or even if he ignored her on purpose as he hasn't told her that he has children.

Totally his loss. My children are fucking ace