Fiancé wants to completly withdraw from DSD's

[45thighs123]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone has experienced this. My fiance is so alienated from his first two kids aged 5 and 7 he now just wants to withdraw completely.

We live 250 mile away. Contact has been sporadic over the last three years and he left the ex 4.5 years ago he does have to move heaven and earth to get contact time . He just says he cannot deal with the high conflict anymore. We have a one year old together and he's amazing with his son and we have great family time . I'm at a loss , it's his choice so what am I meant to think ??!?? I'm so conflicted. I get on with DSD but to be honest I have not seen them very much. He pays maintenance and always has. He said when they are older he will be there. But I've never seen a parent emotionally withdraw before. And when I see him with our son , I always ask well could you leave him ?He says it's different circumstances, different partner and he's committed to this family life. He has deep regrets over having his first two so young and he didn't want the second to be blunt he said he knew by then the relationship was doomed and bringing another baby into it was a massive mistake. But he's still responsible. Should I just accept his decision and move on?

@vivainsomnia

I think some posters are totally missing the point. Going to court is not about taking action to benefit the nrp by establishing contact, although of course that's the ultimate end goal. It's about showing the child, then or later, tht they did try everything in their power to establish the relationship.

If you are a young adult who stopped having contact with their nrp, and start to questioned what happened. Do you think you'll feel the same when you hear that your parent didn't even bother to go to court, but instead managed to find money to bring up another child. As opposed to a father who tried and tried to go to court, until he had spent so much money going nowhere, he had really no more choices but to give up?

They might want to establish contact with the latter. They might actually turn against their mother. They might still build a strong bond as adults. The former though? Likely to question why they were so unimportant that they could just turn the page and just start a new family with not a care that he never saw them again. Likely to never think well of them, nor ever see them.

Well like it or not it is now hypothetical how much he should financially ruin himself if he didn't have other responsibilities. He does have another child to provide for and a house to contribute to keeping over their heads. In his shoes I would attempt to go to court, but if he cannot afford to keep trying indefinitely if the court orders are breached without bankrupting himself then he cannot do it. The fault lies with the person blocking contact, he shouldn't be in that position.

So OP, how much are the court fees?
I assume you found this out at the very least before deciding not to bother because it would 'bankrupt' you?

In his shoes I would attempt to go to court, but if he cannot afford to keep trying indefinitely if the court orders are breached without bankrupting himself then he cannot do it.

This is a sensible approach. What's not sensible is crying "Are we expected to bankrupt ourselves?" and not even making one attempt.

[quote 45thighs123]@WhoisRebecca - exactly we have a house a son and he has no parents, they have passed. 30k is no way something we can afford. I'll be honest it 100% makes life easier from a purely selfish point of view. No more drama and arguments. Dsd's have met their brother once and that took months to get a date and a message to ask when we could drive up. Refusal to ever travel half way. Not allowed to have dsd's at our home. Threats of police on our limited contact time. Drunken phone calls and manipulative behaviour.[/quote]
@Aspiringmatriarch

Note the 'threats of police on our limited contact time'. To me, that does not bode well for court appearances. I'd be expecting manufactured evidence, false witness statements etc. This isn't a case of simple blocking - there is malice there too.

It isn't just about the money. Representing yourself uses up vast amounts of emotional energy, and saps your strength to hold down a job. All the man's energy will be used up looking backwards, and there will be little left of him for his current family. Both families will lose out.

OP, rebuild your strength, save strenuously and return to this again in a few years. Perhaps create savings accounts for the girls and write letters for them to read when they are older.

Here you go OP, I found out the cost of the court fee for you, it's £215.

It isn't just about the money. Representing yourself uses up vast amounts of emotional energy, and saps your strength to hold down a job.
Does it use up more emotional energy than never seeing your kids would? I guess it depend how much you want to see your kids?

I couldn't consider a relationship with a man that abandoned his children, no.

My husband did this. It was parental alienation through and through. Hardest decision of his life, after many many court visits, cafcass and Camhs involvement...he still can't talk about it. Ultimately she was happier not seeing him 🤷🏻‍♀️ the pressure from her mother was just too much. She was 9. He continued with indirect contact but she never really replied so it fizzled out...paid maintenance until she left college. She's now 21, we follow her on Instagram and that's it. The problem is she's a different person now ...an adult and after over 11 years of her mother's input she's probably never going to approach him and he has no fucking clue how to approach her! I sent her a msg on her 21st bday. No response. I wish she would want to meet our children, her sisters.

I haven't lost respect for him in answer to others on here because I know how hard he fought to maintain contact and the lies her mother threw around.

Also my dh was never represented in court we had a solicitor advising but he represented himself. Never cost more than a few hundred. I don't think legal representation would have helped.

My kids are in the same position as your dsd; I moved 150m (after an abusive marriage) to be nearer to my family, and despite being the amazing father he gloats to be by always paying maintenance, my kids have seen their dad fewer than 10 times in 5 years (his choice, I've always done at least half way, many times dropped at his door). The kids have recently both come to the conclusion that he's the actual waste of space I've been shielding them from realising for 8 years. They're done. They've had months of counselling over the years about this, no doubt will need more in the future.

I know a number of families where parents live 100s of miles apart - they manage long weekends, school holidays, plan Christmases years ahead. And zoom/facetime has been utterly priceless for keeping in contact.

I could not be with a man who was ever contemplating dropping his own dc. Non negotiable. Deal breaker. Scumbag.

As pp have said, it's £215 to go to court. There's so much you can do yourself with the right support (wikivorce forum and an ad-hoc SHL were both amazing when I was going through other issues with ex), it doesn't have to cost £30k. And so what if it does - they're HIS KIDS TOO.

No nonsense court application - be prepared to ask for way more contact than he thinks he could ever dream of - and also be prepared to take it up.

The kids are already suffering. Can he - can YOU - even consider a conversation in 10,15,20 years time when they ask 'why didn't you fight to see us?

@45thighs123

So basically we must bankrupt ourselves to be seen as acceptable and if my fiance is financing his son ... (he also pays maintenance regardless and hasn't decreased it since our son has been born ) then that means the household money should go into court fees getting a contact order the ex would never in a million years stick too. Again what good comes out of that,

Actually, yes. You SHOULD do everything you can to get (and enforce) a contact order. Family money? THEY ARE HIS FAMILY! They're your sdc and your ds siblings!

Only that - and subsequent evidence that you have tried EVERY avenue to have contact with them - will be anywhere near good enough to prove to the sdc in the future that he tried EVERYTHING and didn't just drop them to live a simple life with his new family.

And yes, I do judge women who think it's ok for their new dp/dh to ignore their first family. They're scumbags too. bitter, bitter experience

20 years ago I was you. My DP walked out of his DS life. It was the most awful, heart wrenching decision he's ever had to make in his life but it was the right one. His ex wanted him gone so she could play happy families with her 'OM' and did every cheap, nasty trick in the book she could. Unless you're living it, it isn't simple.

And yes, I do judge women who think it's ok for their new dp/dh to ignore their first family. They're scumbags too.

Not everyone judges other people. Maybe 50-60% do, but the rest are more inclined to live and let live.

@Couldhavebeenme2

The difference is you wanted your DC to have contact with their DF. The OP's DP is not in this position. His ex is doing absolutely everything she can to stop contact and this includes emotional abuse of the DC. My DP was right to walk away, so many years down the line we wish it was different but it was still the right decision. So very, very sad.

@Kendodd

Here you go OP, I found out the cost of the court fee for you, it's £215.

No it really isn't... That is the absolute minimal fee to register your application at Court. Alongside that you have to compile an accurate, articulate and very consice bundle. You have to make sure EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING is in that bundle. Judges really don't like people representing themselves in Court. There are very, very strict procedures that have to be followed, and no Judge wants to waste his, or the Courts time walking you through your case, and will find your lack of legal knowledge incredibly frustrating. Trust me once you piss that Judge off, that's it, they can be incredibly flippant, arrogant and extremely condescending. When you start the proceedings you can't just go in there and think the info on the application will surfice, and you'll have the opportunity to explain further or add more details. You won't! If it's not in that bundle, it won't be discussed, and woe betide anyone who thinks they'll chance it. The Judge will tell you to go away and submit further paperwork, and you have to pay again. If you have a Judge that requests CAFCASS reports, medical reports or School/ nursery reports. You then need to wait whilst CAFCASS get all of that paperwork together. You then have to submit another bundle. It often takes about 4-12 weeks for the reports to be compiled, sometimes 6-12 depending on how fast the agencies work with CAFCASS, if it's during the Summer the Schools will be closed, CAFCASS have to liaise with the School to make a visit the School sometimes leave it weeks before they arrange a mutually convenient time. In between that CAFCASS will be liasing with Social Services, to make sure there's no on file involvement with the family. They will also ask for CRB checks of anyone who may be involved with the children if visitation is granted. None of this work is free. You have to pay for all of this. You have to travel to where the children are residing to submit your application too. As it will be the Local Authority in the area that will appoint CAFCASS and Social Services. You may after many,many months be granted an hours meeting at a contact centre once a fortnight, it can be once a month this can be at a relative's home too in the childrens' area. You probably have to wait over 18 months for full days or overnight visitation. It goes on and on.... So it's not just find £250 and off you go. Anyone naively thinking that it's so simple to see your kids when there's high conflict that has meant Court is needed. You can't just shove your musings in front of a Judge either. You've got to have an incredible amount of skill in compiling a bundle. £250 is a much bandied about figure, but that's just to submit your application.

If you and your partner split up OP, and he had your son, who you clearly love (so you had been the one who left) would you just give up on seeing him if your partner made it difficult? What lengths would you go to? Court?

@GertietheGherkin
And if it was my kids, I'd do all of that.
Would you do it to see your own kids or would you think it was too much bother?

His poor kids. :(

Well at least you know what's going to happen to your son if/when you split up.

He'll just move on and get another nice new shiny family.

[quote Kendodd]**@GertietheGherkin
And if it was my kids, I'd do all of that.
Would you do it to see your own kids or would you think it was too much bother?[/quote]
I'd have very few problems as it's a situation I deal with every day.

I'm glad you've got a bottomless money pit that would enable you to do it all too. Not many have a spare £10.000- £40.000 to do it with though sadly. So lucky you.

@GertietheGherkin

And the OP's partner didn't do any of the things on your list.

OP, in response to whether you should break up your happy family, the answer to that is that it depends on what kind of person you are.

A decent human being wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who was prepared to have A, dumped his children from an early age, and B, not be bothering with them any more because he sees the whole thing as too much agro.

And it really winds me up when people say “he’s an amazing dad.” No, he really, really isn’t. He’s a shit dad, and if you split he will be a shit dad to your child as well.

And as for him paying the same maintenance after your son was born, what does he want? A medal? Of course he should still be paying the same maintenance. The children he dumped didn’t suddenly become less expensive just because he happened to pro create with someone else. Even if they did become less important.

I have very little time for these men who just dump their kids and move on to make new ones.

But I have equally little time for the women who accept it and don’t care just as long as the man of the hour is a good father to the latest child they’ve created.

By the time he’s in his 50’s he will probably have left a string of women and abandoned children behind him, and you’ll just be a statistic.

By the time he’s in his 50’s he will probably have left a string of women and abandoned children behind him, and you’ll just be a statistic.

Sounds like Boris Johnson

[quote flippertygibbit]@Couldhavebeenme2

The difference is you wanted your DC to have contact with their DF. The OP's DP is not in this position. His ex is doing absolutely everything she can to stop contact and this includes emotional abuse of the DC. My DP was right to walk away, so many years down the line we wish it was different but it was still the right decision. So very, very sad.[/quote]
I'm happy that I've done everything I possibly can to encourage my ex to see the kids. He's refused everything - mediation, court application for contact (by me, sadly unenforceable if one parent chooses not to see the dc) and I'm 100% secure that I have done everything I can to maintain my kid's relationship with their dad, and he chooses to deny them.

In OPs case yes, I agree that it sounds like the ex is doing everything she can to frustrate contact (a bit like mine in reverse), but her dh is doing absolutely nothing concrete/legal to even seek contact. It really is as simple as making that first legal step to begin the process - and op is not even going that far.

As PPs have said, there is nothing that would keep me from my kids, and if it did, actually, take bankruptcy (unlikely, with direct access barrister and ad-hoc SHL) to achieve that, I'd consider it money well spent. And if the ex still frustrated that, I'd have boxes and boxes of evidence to show the kids how bloody hard I'd tried.

250 miles is hard but not an impossible distance to maintain family ties, relationships and commitments.

OP and her dh are just rolling over, with nothing at all but shrugged shoulders as a defence.

Why hasn't he been to court for access? Or has he?

If the roles were reversed could you leave your son?

That's how I look at it.

I know every situation is different but you can self represent for less than £300. Why hasn't he looked into this?

@AlternativePerspective

OP, in response to whether you should break up your happy family, the answer to that is that it depends on what kind of person you are.

A decent human being wouldn’t stay in a relationship with someone who was prepared to have A, dumped his children from an early age, and B, not be bothering with them any more because he sees the whole thing as too much agro.

And it really winds me up when people say “he’s an amazing dad.” No, he really, really isn’t. He’s a shit dad, and if you split he will be a shit dad to your child as well.

And as for him paying the same maintenance after your son was born, what does he want? A medal? Of course he should still be paying the same maintenance. The children he dumped didn’t suddenly become less expensive just because he happened to pro create with someone else. Even if they did become less important.

I have very little time for these men who just dump their kids and move on to make new ones.

But I have equally little time for the women who accept it and don’t care just as long as the man of the hour is a good father to the latest child they’ve created.

By the time he’s in his 50’s he will probably have left a string of women and abandoned children behind him, and you’ll just be a statistic.

You may find yourself in the situation one day. If I could count on one hand just how many people spout this crap, until they find themselves in the situation. Then they expect their every wish granted, and every order obeyed.