ex witholding access

[triavgor]

DP divorced his wife 2 years ago, they were married 15 years. They have an 11 year old son who lives with his mum. Their contact arrangements were one weekend day per week, no overnights as mum said that was too much. This stopped in the summer and mum simply says that DS doesn't want to see his dad and is old enough to make this own decisions. For context, DP pays maintenance over and above the minimum and there are no other financial issues outstanding.

DP has asked mum via email several times to meet to discuss this and to work out how to come up with a plan together to arrange for contact to start which mum has ignored. Her only comments are to reiterate that DS is his own person and she respects his decision

DP contacts DS via message / facetime most days and the messages are rarely read or replied to. DS has also stopped replying to messages from his grandparents and didn't thank them for christmas presents. DP has said to mum that even if DS isn't speaking to him to please make sure that he at least thanks grandparents for presents and returns their messages. DS was previously v close to them. Mum has ignored this.

When DP contacted school to find out why he wasn't receiving emails mum had given them an incorrect email address.

DP has has contacted a mediator to try and address this as mum is now ignoring all messages. She has refused contact with the mediator.

There are no indications whatsoever from her texts and emails that DP was in any way violent or abusive. She accuses him of nothing other than DS doesn't want to see him and she won't force him. She will not discuss why or work with DP to overcome it. From what I can gather, and I'm obviously only seeing one side, he is a good hands-on dad who loves his son.

Can anyone shed any light as to why his ex might be acting like this and be completely against working through the issues or even discussing them with DP. I have seen all the texts and emails between them and there are genuinely no accusations against DP's behaviour at all, so I cannot believe that there's a safeguarding risk to his son.

DP lives on his own in a lovely 3 bed house with a bedroom exclusively in the hope that DS will come over, he has all DS favourite things there and DS school is in the middle of both houses. DS also has friends who live near DP so wouldn't be far from his social life. DP works from home and therefore there are no logistical problems.

Next step will be court but this is really having a massive effect on DP not least because he can't even speak to his ex to discuss it

@Funfairballoon I reckon abuse and neglect are far more common than parental alienation.

I would also caution you that so many men take an interest in their kids when they get a new GF

Absolutely - or at least feign interest

but I do find it strange that everyone's first reaction is oh well he must have been a total bastard

Why is it strange? It's extremely common for men to behave badly following a split, regardless of cause/fault. From vanishing from their child's life, to simply not making an effort (op herself says he acknowledges he hasn't been as "proactive" as he should have been), to badgering children for information about the ex's new life usually especially a new partner (my dd had that crap!), to constant derogatory commentary about the other parent and even the child and everything in between up to and including abuse.

Not all men are bastards - but a hell of a lot are!

Neither of the two verifiable "facts" scream worlds best dad.

Absolutely

Well I guess statistically there aren't that many dads on Mumsnet? there's nothing stopping them though. And there are some. Most appear to be decent engaged fathers but sometimes we do get a thread started by the father about such a scenario - most of the time when challenged about their lack of effort which is usually the case (they're hardly going to admit to being abusive are they?) they either get aggressively defensive or they vanish!

@Magda72 having been through it with dd, I'd say a disinterested father/nrp is hugely damaging and shouldn't be treated as lightly as it is. It's not as bad as abuse of the physical/sexual/controlling kind I won't go that far (having suffered that myself) but it has huge long term negative effects

If there was a safeguarding issue why didn't the dm flag it at the time of divorce?

Neither we nor op knows it wasn't, there might not have been safeguarding issues prior to the split or they may not have been known to authorities. Plenty of abused wives leave without telling anyone and erroneously think "he'd never hurt the kids though" and then when the kids get older and cheekier/more challenging they do hurt them

abusers have a history of abuse.
Furthermore op has seen correspondence & nowhere does the dm mention abuse.

It's not always reported to authorities, authorities don't always take it seriously or even record reports (3 Uk police forces have been found to do this and are now in disciplinary measures as a result), the correspondence could have been faked, takes mins to set up a fake email address "legalbods.com@yahoo" and create fake email exchanges...

We simply don't know

The solicitors advice may have been based on more thorough knowledge of the people involved

Sadly even reported/recorded abuse may not result in cessation of contact even in the most extreme cases. I know of one where the father was convicted and served custodial sentence for raping the child and upon release from prison was awarded unsupervised contact.

@Graphista - I take all your points but everyone seems very ready to assume abuse on this man's part.
I have two close family members who saw their dc very rarely post split & I can tell you this was totally as a result of parental alienation & not abuse on their parts.
I don't agree with men not fighting to see their dc but having witnesses parental alienation up close I can understand why some men either take crumbs or give up altogether as its soul destroying.
It's possible this man was/is abusive but it's also equally possible he's suffered abuse at the hands of his ex.

I think it is very difficult to say how an individual child experiences a particular parent. The nuances of the interactions can be very hard to detect as an outsider.

One child in a family may experience mom , dad , or grandpa as loving and caring, and a sibling may experience that same parent or family member as distant and remote.

I think it is too easy to attribute a fractured parental relationship to parental alienation. I think that a father who had been a caring presence in his child's life and who has been experienced by that child as a caring and involved presence does not need to rely on the mother to facilitate his relationship with his child. His actions and demeanor with his child should serve as the facilitator of the relationship.

Children are not blank slates on whom mothers get to write or dictate opinions and reactions. Even very young children form opinions and responses based on the actions and omissions of those with whom they interact.

My children's feelings about me and about their father are based not upon my or his opinion of each other but upon their interactions with each of us. They know that their father loves them, not because I tell them that he loves them but because his every action demonstrates to them that he loves them. They have never relied upon me or on him to form their opinions of us as parents. They look at our actions to make that determination. They know that we divorced each other, but never for a moment were we divorced from them.

It probably helps that as parents we are able to get along in a friendly and cordial manner.

Children who have experienced feelings of abandonment by one or other of their parents probably are alienated as much by that parents omissions in their life as by any negative thing that the other parent might say.

I have often heard dads say " his mom won't make him come, " and yet a more accurate statement might be " I am so ineffectual as a parent that I cannot make him come. "

It is far to easy to deflect failing as an effective parent by blaming the other parent for not facilitating a relationship that you on your own should have better managed.

However, I think the father have enough agency to say to his son " be ready, I am on my way to pick you up." Why should the mother be capable of effecting behavior that the father fails to effect?

Personally I'm not so sure @Graphista

Let's remember abuse and neglect are worse than being a "shit dad" as well.

Parental alienation is actually much more common than we realise.

Parental alienation is a made-up term used to abuse women in the courts, and that is not just my opinion, but that of Women's Aid - an organisation that is roundly supported on Mumsnet, by the way.

"There is little, if any, credible scientific support for the theory of PA. An earlier version of the theory, proposed by US child psychiatrist Richard Gardner (parental alienation syndrome – PAS) resulted in family courts in the USA removing numerous children from the primary care of protective mothers during the 1980s"

Father's rights organisations, which are usually hell-bent on getting back power and control in their relationship with the mother, use accusations of PA as a weapon against her. I have little patience for anyone who claims PA is a "thing." It is not.

The link has more information.

www.womensaid.org.uk/parental-alienation-and-the-family-courts/?fbclid=IwAR34PGZcfW0YMWhsIxTxt2RPxvVqYn9UVhBYsuudiP7ebLps3flSXh2GQwE

[quote WhatHappenedToThose]Parental alienation is a made-up term used to abuse women in the courts, and that is not just my opinion, but that of Women's Aid - an organisation that is roundly supported on Mumsnet, by the way.

"There is little, if any, credible scientific support for the theory of PA. An earlier version of the theory, proposed by US child psychiatrist Richard Gardner (parental alienation syndrome – PAS) resulted in family courts in the USA removing numerous children from the primary care of protective mothers during the 1980s"

Father's rights organisations, which are usually hell-bent on getting back power and control in their relationship with the mother, use accusations of PA as a weapon against her. I have little patience for anyone who claims PA is a "thing." It is not.

The link has more information.

www.womensaid.org.uk/parental-alienation-and-the-family-courts/?fbclid=IwAR34PGZcfW0YMWhsIxTxt2RPxvVqYn9UVhBYsuudiP7ebLps3flSXh2GQwE[/quote]
Ah right I must have imagined the last almost ten years of my life then. Dp must be so abusive and yet I haven't experienced it at all, ever. Must have imagined the ex being the physically and mentally abusive one. Silly me.

I'm sorry for your experience, but I wasn't speaking to you personally, and I think you know that. Lashing out at me doesn't change the bigger picture. There is no scientific basis for the term "parental alienation " and I would encourage you to read the link.

@WhatHappenedToThose

I'm sorry for your experience, but I wasn't speaking to you personally, and I think you know that. Lashing out at me doesn't change the bigger picture. There is no scientific basis for the term "parental alienation " and I would encourage you to read the link.

I read it, but you're basically saying it does not happen, it absolutely does happen.

I am sure that abusive men absolutely do use it against women, and that's horrific and im glad it's recognised. That doesn't take away from that fact that some parents, a minority of parents I'm certain, do alienate their children.

The inventor of the term parental alienation. What a gent!

Ok well what should I call what happened then?

@Funfairballoon

Ok well what should I call what happened then?

I feel like you're lashing out at me again. I am disputing the bigger picture, not single cases, which you've agreed is an issue.

The minority of cases, of which you seem to have been unfortunate to be a part of, should not dictate the bigger picture here. PA is a term with no scientific basis that is being used to batter women in the family courts.

I'm not the person to create a better term or definition and don't pretend to be an expert, but I do trust the expertise of Women's Aid over and above the Family Courts system, I'm afraid.

[quote WhatHappenedToThose]Parental alienation is a made-up term used to abuse women in the courts, and that is not just my opinion, but that of Women's Aid - an organisation that is roundly supported on Mumsnet, by the way.

"There is little, if any, credible scientific support for the theory of PA. An earlier version of the theory, proposed by US child psychiatrist Richard Gardner (parental alienation syndrome – PAS) resulted in family courts in the USA removing numerous children from the primary care of protective mothers during the 1980s"

Father's rights organisations, which are usually hell-bent on getting back power and control in their relationship with the mother, use accusations of PA as a weapon against her. I have little patience for anyone who claims PA is a "thing." It is not.

The link has more information.

www.womensaid.org.uk/parental-alienation-and-the-family-courts/?fbclid=IwAR34PGZcfW0YMWhsIxTxt2RPxvVqYn9UVhBYsuudiP7ebLps3flSXh2GQwE[/quote]
I can't believe what I'm reading in this post!! Do you really believe this??

There are many instances where mothers have done their utmost to cut off a father's relationship with their children. I know of 2 just within the lives of my own small circle of friends! One of my friend's parents had to remortgage their house to pay for her brother to take his ex to court for access to his child because she just refused to let him see him?!

I don't disagree that many issues over custody are actually plays for control by parents, but I don't think it's always the dad. Both parents can be guilty of this.

Lashing out?

No in just unhappy that you're telling me what happened isn't a thing and doesn't exist, I shouldn't use that term for it but can't tell me what I should say?

Because it did happen and I don't see why I should pretend otherwise because the man who invented the term was an arsehole. Maybe he was it it doesn't negate what happened.

I am sorry for individual experiences, but a few anecdotes don't change the fact that PA has no scientific basis. Whatever is happening, whatever individual complexity at play, should not be called PA.

@WhatHappenedToThose

I am sorry for individual experiences, but a few anecdotes don't change the fact that PA has no scientific basis. Whatever is happening, whatever individual complexity at play, should not be called PA.

Does it matter what the term is though really? The reality of the experience is the same.

A rose by another name and all that...

Even if I don't call it parental alienation it's still fundamentally one parent purposely trying to fracture or end their child's relationship with the other.

Ex accused me of parental alienation the social worker concluded dad alienated himself he basically hates me more than he loves his children actively encouraging our son to say bad things about me ridiculous things like how bad I was for working how stupid I was for failing my driving test first time (so did he but forgets this) we can eat all the sweets we like and "she" cant stop us (she being me and I allow him to eat sweets) giving my youngest coke just before he came home to me (he was three? He went nuts on the caffeine 😳) the list of micro aggressive behaviour is endless

But its still my fault he choses not to go

I think that children can be alienated from a parent. I think the issue in each situation is what has caused or precipitated the alienation. Certainly, it can be caused by the actions of one parent determined to create a rift in the child's relationship with the other parent.

Equally, it can be caused by the failure by a parent to be an effective parent resulting in the child feeling abandoned and neglected by his or her parent.

The bottom line is that the alienation can be just as likely caused by the omission and neglect on the part of the parent from whom the child is alienated as by the proactive efforts on the part of the other parent to create alienation.

Outsiders are quick to blame the mother for alienation and ineffectual fathers often fail to take ownership of their roles in creating the problems that they themselves have created with their own children.

Both parents can have dirty hands in these situations.

As a pre teen my ds told me he knew his df hated me more than he loved him. He successfully drove us apart with his poison ... Haven't seen ds since he was nearly 16.. Exh did a great number on him. Younger 2 went nc with exh and are with me now..

@WhatHappenedToThose

For you to claim that there is no such thing as parental alienation is quite ridiculous.

The British courts certainly accept the existence of alienation as does CAFCASS.

Here is the CAFCASS definition of parental alienation:-

"When a child's resistance/hostility towards one parent is not justified and is the result of psychological manipulation by the other parent."

To that may be added that the manipulation of the child by the other parent need not be malicious or even deliberate. It is the process that matters, not the motive.

Signs of alienation may include portraying the other parent in an unduly negative light to the child, suggesting that the other parent does not love the child, providing unnecessary reassurance to the child about time with the other parent, contacting the child excessively when with the other parent, and making unfounded allegations or insinuations, particularly of sexual abuse.

There are no end of court cases where parental alienation has been central to the outcome.

For example, a recent case in the court of appeal where the daughter was taken from the mother and placed with the father:-

Re S (Parental Alienation: Cult) (2020) EWCA Civ 568

Or another case in the High Court:-

RH (Parental Alienation) (2019) EWHC 2723 (Fam)

where the son's residence was transferred from the mother to the father. A quote from the judgment:-

""Mother's opinions about the father have been transferring to H gradually over time, and are now complete, with his independent rejection of contact. Mother herself would say that this is the result of H seeing 'who his father really is', but H's presentation suggests it is more likely to reflect alienation. Mother's views of the father are entrenched, and the prognosis for any shift in that view, if H remains with his mother, does not look promising."

"Unfortunately, therapeutic intervention aimed at a restoring H's relationship with his father whilst in the care of his mother is ill-advised, not only in light of the research evidence, but the failure of any previous threat of change of residence to change the course of this case or mum's stance, with the consequence that H now has no relationship with his father.

Even though there may be transient distress, particularly as H is now settled in his secondary school, with friends, this needs to be weighed against the need for removal from his mum, to protect him from further harm, in the form of the consequences of complete loss of his dad."

"H is currently prioritizing his mother's needs over his own and no longer sees his relationship with his father as bringing anything but pain and complication into his life. Development of such rigid schemas may, among other difficulties preclude him from making good enough sense of his social and emotional world to be able to negotiate his relationships successfully as he matures."

I could give you page after page of other similar court judgments.

Parental alienation is a very real thing and the courts do transfer residence (in, admittedly, extreme cases) where this happens.

Please read my link.

Perhaps the expert opinions of Woman's Aid aren't to be trusted? And why would you want to undermine their credibility?

Cafcass is often unfit for purpose, and even cafcass workers will say so.

PA is increasingly used as a means for abusive men to continue to abuse their ex partners with the backing of the Courts.

@Tiredoftattler

I think that children can be alienated from a parent. I think the issue in each situation is what has caused or precipitated the alienation. Certainly, it can be caused by the actions of one parent determined to create a rift in the child's relationship with the other parent.

Equally, it can be caused by the failure by a parent to be an effective parent resulting in the child feeling abandoned and neglected by his or her parent.

The bottom line is that the alienation can be just as likely caused by the omission and neglect on the part of the parent from whom the child is alienated as by the proactive efforts on the part of the other parent to create alienation.

Outsiders are quick to blame the mother for alienation and ineffectual fathers often fail to take ownership of their roles in creating the problems that they themselves have created with their own children.

Both parents can have dirty hands in these situations.

I'm quick to blame one parent because I saw it happen right in front of my eyes. Had it happened before I was with dp, I couldn't be so certain.

The reason for the alienation in our case, was me. His ex did not like me, did want want him to be with me, and when he didn't immediately leave me on her direction, she started trying to turn the children against him.

Before she knew about me, they co parented quite amicably.

Get over yourselves (most of you) he's struggling with contact that doesn't make him an abuser or a shit dad. He might be. He might not. So many of you have already decided.
Put an application into the court and CAFCASS can get to the bottom of it.
My friends children didn't want to see their dad so he went to court citing parental alienation. They soon put the court straight when they said the reason they didn't want to see him was because all he did was bitch about their mother. But none of us know what is happening here so coming up with fantastical theories is a waste of time. Court is the best way to go.

PA is increasingly used as a means for abusive men to continue to abuse their ex partners with the backing of the Courts.

Any evidence for that? - Genuine question, not trying to be goady.

On the other hand, the courts are now much more recognising that parental alienation is a real thing and does occur.

Just go and have a read a read of some of the many cases from the family courts where there has been parental alienation and it is quite staggering how the RP behaves.

Just a few at random:-

R (Parental alienation and suspended transfer of residence) (2019) EWFC B61

L (A Child) (2019) EWHC 867 (Fam)

X, Y and Z (Children : Agreed Transfer of Residence) (2021) EWFC 18

D (A child - parental alienation) (Rev 1) (2018) EWFC B64

Re B (change of residence; parental alienation) (2017) EWFC B24

Actually D (A child - parental alienation) has a very indepth review of how the court approaches alienation in paras 165-174

@WhatHappenedToThose

I am sorry for individual experiences, but a few anecdotes don't change the fact that PA has no scientific basis. Whatever is happening, whatever individual complexity at play, should not be called PA.

@WhatHappenedToThose Social science terms are based on people's experiences. Next you will be telling us racism, sexism, etc are made up.

And no I don't always trust Women's Aid. Unfortunately nearly all charities have been used by a minority of people who are abusers that pretend to be victims.

Parental alienation definitely happens. I'm watching it happen right now with DP's children. And there is no history of abuse. His marriage ended when his ex wife had an affair. She's been open about that and that the ultimate end of the marriage was her fault. Unfortunately I think she then felt so guilty that her weird reaction to that is to try and take some sort of ownership of the children to somehow prove to herself that she is a good Mum. (In her eyes, dp doesn't question her mothering skills). I don't judge either way about the affair. DP says himself the marriage was just coasting along, people get bored, whatever-it happens...But the bad mouthing of the kids dad, and the withholding of access to the children is just awful.