ex witholding access

[triavgor]

DP divorced his wife 2 years ago, they were married 15 years. They have an 11 year old son who lives with his mum. Their contact arrangements were one weekend day per week, no overnights as mum said that was too much. This stopped in the summer and mum simply says that DS doesn't want to see his dad and is old enough to make this own decisions. For context, DP pays maintenance over and above the minimum and there are no other financial issues outstanding.

DP has asked mum via email several times to meet to discuss this and to work out how to come up with a plan together to arrange for contact to start which mum has ignored. Her only comments are to reiterate that DS is his own person and she respects his decision

DP contacts DS via message / facetime most days and the messages are rarely read or replied to. DS has also stopped replying to messages from his grandparents and didn't thank them for christmas presents. DP has said to mum that even if DS isn't speaking to him to please make sure that he at least thanks grandparents for presents and returns their messages. DS was previously v close to them. Mum has ignored this.

When DP contacted school to find out why he wasn't receiving emails mum had given them an incorrect email address.

DP has has contacted a mediator to try and address this as mum is now ignoring all messages. She has refused contact with the mediator.

There are no indications whatsoever from her texts and emails that DP was in any way violent or abusive. She accuses him of nothing other than DS doesn't want to see him and she won't force him. She will not discuss why or work with DP to overcome it. From what I can gather, and I'm obviously only seeing one side, he is a good hands-on dad who loves his son.

Can anyone shed any light as to why his ex might be acting like this and be completely against working through the issues or even discussing them with DP. I have seen all the texts and emails between them and there are genuinely no accusations against DP's behaviour at all, so I cannot believe that there's a safeguarding risk to his son.

DP lives on his own in a lovely 3 bed house with a bedroom exclusively in the hope that DS will come over, he has all DS favourite things there and DS school is in the middle of both houses. DS also has friends who live near DP so wouldn't be far from his social life. DP works from home and therefore there are no logistical problems.

Next step will be court but this is really having a massive effect on DP not least because he can't even speak to his ex to discuss it

I had this with my now 16 yr old roughly the same age , he just didn't want to go, but as he got older I forced him to go as he was doing my head in being here all the time! Also he really needed to see his dad as he started to go off the rails a bit at 13/14 yrs

Dad was a bit rubbish and would insist I drop him off etc
Any way he picks him up now and drops him off.... and is much more proactive as the school pastoral care pulled his dad on lack of support from his side.

Really? You don't think that if a child is still in primary school and isn't saying thank you to their grandparents and is ignoring their dad's messages their mum shouldn't make him do it out of good manners

Nope. That's for the father to do, his side of the family.

I also disagree that she shouldn't be persuading her DS to see his dad

Why should she be pushing contact? Contact is offered, which son can take up... she doesn't need to push him in to it. As you make clear, you have no idea what has gone on between them all.

@Theunamedcat If DS doesn't want to see him that may well be the right decision. I have no evidence to suggest that he's toxic although I wasn't living in their home. However, I do think that his ex's refusal to enter into any conversation about why DS doesn't want to see him, even through a mediator is a concern.

An 11 yo dc can't possibly understand the longterm implications of keeping a df at bay.
I am 49 and have never had a decent relationship with my df. As a dc he had no chance of gaining one thanks to my dm. She knew exactly what she was doing..

Also if you haven't met the son or seen them together how would you know about their relationship?

Why are you getting involved?

And insisting that the son write letters to grandparents etc.... maybe your partner is making excuses??

This is really sad.

I think the fact that his mum is so adamant that she won't encourage a relationship with his dad in any way probably implies that she wasn't supportive of it when they were still in touch and has potentially influenced this behaviour from DS. I'd be suspecting parental alienation by her.

11 is still so young and really not old enough to decide he doesn't want a relationship with his father. It will only serve to damage him and make him feel like he wasn't wanted and loved, when the truth is that he is.

It seems like the only option is court though sadly.

I'm getting a sense from the op that you've never met ex nor his son?

If so then all the info you have is based on what your boyfriend (I think also you don't live together?) is telling you.

We do not live together thought not

How long have you been together?

Why he agreed initially to such limited contact initially, I can't comment. I think that he took what she offered and she promised that once DS had got used to it they'd be able to increase it and build up slowly. I guess that they thought it was the right step at the time.

If you're only getting his side of things (and bear in mind it's VERY easy to fake texts, emails and other communication in this day and age) then you need to be aware you may not be getting the truth.

It might be that was all the contact he wanted and he didn't make much effort when he did see his son - not uncommon unfortunately

Am I correct in surmising an 11 year old already has a counsellor? You mentioned a counsellor ds knows. Why is that? That's pretty rare.

DS doesn't know about me. I have never met him

So chances are you don't know the full story.

you have no idea what has gone on between them all.

Exactly!

Best case scenario your boyfriend is a disinterested deadbeat dad who rather than simply not being proactive has made sod all effort to be an engaged father and is only making a pretence at being ill treated for your benefit - very very common, especially in early stages of a relationship with a single mum who is questioning why he doesn't see his kid

Worse case scenario this is the beginnings of parental alienation and so yes go through the legal processes to prevent that

Worst case scenario abuse, which won't necessarily have been reported to authorities, by the father or other relatives. Could explain the lack of communication with grandparents which ime is less common than not communicating with parent if they are good and engaged grandparents

You need to tread warily here as I get the distinct feeling you don't know this guy that well (but may think you do) and you certainly have no idea of the potential reasons for this change in contact.

To be honest it's not really your business either as you don't even live with this guy. I get the feeling you haven't introduced your kids to him yet? Or are maybe tentatively starting that relationship?

Be careful. You don't want to risk exposing your kids to someone who at best will simply vanish on them or at worst is potentially dangerous to them.

Sounds like you don't even have any proof that he did have a prior contact arrangement with his ex.

How did you meet? Does anyone you know prior to meeting him know him? Please be cautious. Not all toxic/dangerous people are known to authorities and even if he is I'm guessing you've not done any kind of check into his background? Might be useful or informative to make a clares law or Sarah's law enquiry or at least google him, his ex, his sons names?

Something smells a little fishy to me. If you were coming to me as a friend with this tale, I'd be urging caution and checking him out myself

It's not for his ex to facilitate a relationship with their DS. It's up to your DP to do that. She's under no obligation to encourage anything, and no that's not the same as parental alienation. As a NRP it's up to his dad to maintain contact and take it further if he's not satisfied.

Why, when the ex refused 50:50, take it to court then? Obviously finances change but if he's able to consider it now, it's fair to assume he could've considered it before.

How did you meet? Does anyone you know prior to meeting him know him? Please be cautious. Not all toxic/dangerous people are known to authorities and even if he is I'm guessing you've not done any kind of check into his background? Might be useful or informative to make a clares law or Sarah's law enquiry or at least google him, his ex, his sons names?

I have known him for many years as grew up in the same town, we have many mutual friends, my parents know his parents to say hello to and I know his siblings and his wider family. I also have some mutual friends with his ex. He is very much not a random person.

@Funfairballoon even if things don't improve after going to Court, the nrp should still take the rp to Court.

Grown up children frequently contact their absent parent as an adult. If that parent keeps the Court paperwork they can then prove that they didn't abandon their child.

As someone said to me about contact - it is marathon not a sprint.

Read up about parental alienation - this story has the classic signs.

An 11 YO isn’t old enough to make an adult decision that contact should stop.

Your OH needs to take this to court ASAP to stop the mothers control & alienation. Do this sooner rather than later - your OH can represent himself if he can’t afford a solicitor.

Your OH sounds like a loving father who wants to be involved. The mother isn’t more important and doesn’t get to control contact - only a court order will sort this.

[quote RedMarauder]**@Funfairballoon* even if things don't improve after going to Court, the nrp should still* take the rp to Court.

Grown up children frequently contact their absent parent as an adult. If that parent keeps the Court paperwork they can then prove that they didn't abandon their child.

As someone said to me about contact - it is marathon not a sprint.[/quote]
Oh yeah I agree they should do it, absolutely, i was just suggesting why some people don't.

@KurtWilde

It's not for his ex to facilitate a relationship with their DS. It's up to your DP to do that. She's under no obligation to encourage anything, and no that's not the same as parental alienation. As a NRP it's up to his dad to maintain contact and take it further if he's not satisfied.

Why, when the ex refused 50:50, take it to court then? Obviously finances change but if he's able to consider it now, it's fair to assume he could've considered it before.

Actually she needs to make him available for contact, and she's not doing that. She's not even explaining why the child won't see him, which isn't good enough.

@Graphista

I'm getting a sense from the op that you've never met ex nor his son?

If so then all the info you have is based on what your boyfriend (I think also you don't live together?) is telling you.

We do not live together thought not

How long have you been together?

Why he agreed initially to such limited contact initially, I can't comment. I think that he took what she offered and she promised that once DS had got used to it they'd be able to increase it and build up slowly. I guess that they thought it was the right step at the time.

If you're only getting his side of things (and bear in mind it's VERY easy to fake texts, emails and other communication in this day and age) then you need to be aware you may not be getting the truth.

It might be that was all the contact he wanted and he didn't make much effort when he did see his son - not uncommon unfortunately

Am I correct in surmising an 11 year old already has a counsellor? You mentioned a counsellor ds knows. Why is that? That's pretty rare.

DS doesn't know about me. I have never met him

So chances are you don't know the full story.

you have no idea what has gone on between them all.

Exactly!

Best case scenario your boyfriend is a disinterested deadbeat dad who rather than simply not being proactive has made sod all effort to be an engaged father and is only making a pretence at being ill treated for your benefit - very very common, especially in early stages of a relationship with a single mum who is questioning why he doesn't see his kid

Worse case scenario this is the beginnings of parental alienation and so yes go through the legal processes to prevent that

Worst case scenario abuse, which won't necessarily have been reported to authorities, by the father or other relatives. Could explain the lack of communication with grandparents which ime is less common than not communicating with parent if they are good and engaged grandparents

You need to tread warily here as I get the distinct feeling you don't know this guy that well (but may think you do) and you certainly have no idea of the potential reasons for this change in contact.

To be honest it's not really your business either as you don't even live with this guy. I get the feeling you haven't introduced your kids to him yet? Or are maybe tentatively starting that relationship?

Be careful. You don't want to risk exposing your kids to someone who at best will simply vanish on them or at worst is potentially dangerous to them.

Sounds like you don't even have any proof that he did have a prior contact arrangement with his ex.

How did you meet? Does anyone you know prior to meeting him know him? Please be cautious. Not all toxic/dangerous people are known to authorities and even if he is I'm guessing you've not done any kind of check into his background? Might be useful or informative to make a clares law or Sarah's law enquiry or at least google him, his ex, his sons names?

Something smells a little fishy to me. If you were coming to me as a friend with this tale, I'd be urging caution and checking him out myself

That is a huge and rather bizarre jump

@BrilliantBetty

Really? You don't think that if a child is still in primary school and isn't saying thank you to their grandparents and is ignoring their dad's messages their mum shouldn't make him do it out of good manners

Nope. That's for the father to do, his side of the family.

I also disagree that she shouldn't be persuading her DS to see his dad

Why should she be pushing contact? Contact is offered, which son can take up... she doesn't need to push him in to it. As you make clear, you have no idea what has gone on between them all.

But how is the father meant to do it if the son won't see or speak to him, despite daily efforts by the dad, and his mum - the only parent who does have contact with him - won't help or encourage him?

Why should she be pushing contact? Contact is offered, which son can take up... she doesn't need to push him in to it.

Because the boy is only 11 and it's in his best interests (assuming no safeguarding worries) to have a relationship with his dad?

It's not up to the mum to force the boy, but she should be actively encouraging him. At a similar age DS didn't want to go to his dads, his Dad didn't make much of an effort - minimal eow contact and nothing in between, did nothing with him when there etc, but I still tried to work with DS to get him to go. Even though I felt his Dad didn't really deserve my efforts (he should have tried harder!) I wanted DS to have a relationship with him.

Subsequently, now aged 17 DS only sees his Dad every couple of months. His Dad never stepped up and DS got bored of it. His loss, but sad for DS.

In the instance of DS not replying to grandparents, I would remind him it's about being polite but again I wouldn't force it, it's not my side of the family to deal with

I also disagree that she shouldn't be persuading her DS to see his dad

You're assuming that mum is engaging in some kind of alientation and/or is somehow behind the contact refusal. And that sounds more than possible. On the other hand, who knows what might have happened between father and son and who knows what the son has said to mum. Whilst I am pro contact in most situations, it is really very difficult to know where to draw the line when there has been an issue between children and parent. My children went through hell with one of my ex's now ex-girlfriend and sometimes would refuse to go. I often wondered if I should stop contact because the situation was so deeply unpleasant and it seemed to me that they only went to keep dad happy rather than actually wanting to see him (because he refused to see them without the girlfriend around). I also often wonder how they might remember that in the future - that I did nothing at all to protect them and encouraged them to keep going into an environment where they were uncomfortable at best and being abused at worst? Or that I stopped them seeing their dad and all the problems that might have caused? I was so paralysed with fear of doing the wrong thing, I did nothing. And not sure that was the right thing either!

@Bibidy thank you. How can he do anything if his sons mum won’t at the very least tell him why his son won’t see him. He’s 11, he needs his mum to guide him. No she can’t force him if he really doesn’t want to but surely at the very least she should be telling DP what the problem is so that he knows. He’s still a little boy and needs some direction from his mum.

@Funfairballoon I've dealt with two exh now and their contact with our DC. I've spoken to mediators and family solicitors and I can say with confidence that is most certainly isn't up to the ex to facilitate contact. The DPs son isn't unavailable for contact, he's CHOOSING not to have it. How would you propose his mum make him available for it without forcing or encouraging?

@triavgor she could at the very least tell him why, but she's under no obligation to. And for all you know he might ALREADY know why. You really don't have any idea what has gone on between father and son up to this point, or the circumstances of his relationship prior to the split.

At this point I think you need to step away from the problem as it's not yours it's your boyfriends. You sound very invested in his relationship with a child you've never even met or seen together with his dad to gauge the dynamic.

Sort to hijack the thread, but pp have mentioned legal processes to stop parental alienation. What are the legal processes? My DP's ex is saying some really worrying (and inaccurate) things to their children about him and refusing to facilitate phone calls during the times they are with her (they are too young to have their own phones so calls go through her, though on the advise of the mediator he bought them a basic phone so he could call them-which she then removed from them).
His solicitor seems to be focussing on the finance agreement and says once that is sorted they will look at child issues-But that will take months during which time a lot of damage could be done to his relationship with the DC.

[quote triavgor]@Bibidy thank you. How can he do anything if his sons mum won’t at the very least tell him why his son won’t see him. He’s 11, he needs his mum to guide him. No she can’t force him if he really doesn’t want to but surely at the very least she should be telling DP what the problem is so that he knows. He’s still a little boy and needs some direction from his mum.[/quote]
Completely agree.

I think sometimes on here people are more concerned about the mum's right not to have to do what they see as 'favours' for her ex than what's actually in the child's best interests, which is very definitely to have a relationship with both parents.

It's the child who loses out the most from this arrangement as he's the one who'll grow up feeling that he doesn't have a dad. But he does!

I genuinely don't see what your DP can do in a scenario where the only person who is in touch with DS won't help. Short of turning up on her doorstep, which I would guess would result in uproar, there really is little he can do except take it to court.

Maybe he was a complete prick to his son and wife and that’s why the son doesn’t want to see him?

He needs to go to court, sorry there is nothing else to be said.

Informal agreements generally only work where both parties are open and amicable and value both parents relationship with the children.
Clearly the DM doesn’t fall into this category so it’s court or continue to put up with this nonsense

He is very much not a random person

Ok so hopefully nothing too awful you don't know about - although you still need to be cautious as you don't know his son or his ex.

Plus people with an excellent reputation outside of their home/intimate relationships can be very different in them. I'd still say don't assume you're being given the full story and that there aren't very good reasons why the son doesn't want to see the dad.

It may be something as "benign" as dad has constantly let him down as a parent - promising big and not delivering, cancelling contact last min, not making much effort during contact etc

I've had that with my dd. My ex would describe the situation as me preventing him seeing dd. The truth is I bent over backwards for many years practically, emotionally and financially to facilitate and even encourage contact with dd and her dad, even when she didn't want to (the reasons for which I sadly didn't discover until much later and included under feeding her, ignoring her pointedly, infantilising her, not allowing her to speak to me while on contact - we live hundreds of miles apart as he's ex army so contact needed to be overnight. After a particularly bad contact dd insisted I stay locally thereafter so I was paying out for hotels etc too).

There came a point where by coincidence dd discovered all I'd been doing due to her dad slipping up and I was struggling financially after becoming too ill to work. Dd kinda sat ME down for a conversation and said that she didn't want me killing myself to facilitate contact and she wanted to know once and for all if he was interested in being her dad and so she asked me to back off from all I'd been doing (this included things like booking and paying for his travel as well as hers and/or doing and paying for the travel myself, repeatedly reminding him when her school holidays were and reminding him to book his leave from work, reminding him of travel arrangements, reminding him of her birthday etc etc)

So I did - it was bloody hard and many times when seeing how heartbroken dd was I was tempted to do a "secret" text or call telling him to bloody well be a father!

What happened?

Within a year he was no longer even phoning her! Hell even if she phoned him he couldn't get off the call fast enough!

Her birthday card was weeks late and inappropriate age wise, no gift or even money to get herself something.

A few months after that in response to her asking him (politely not angry, more hurt) why he was treating her so badly - he blocked her on everything! Yep! He blocked his own daughter!

But to hear him tell it (he's an idiot who forgets we still have friends in common) I told dd a load of lies and stopped her visiting him. I did nothing of the sort - there was no need he was perfectly capable of screwing it all up himself!

I've never blocked him, dd never blocked him, dd has a disability which was diagnosed around the same time which I kept him and his parents informed about. I'm still in contact with his mum. Dd has had hospital admissions and other stuff with her disability which I have messaged and written to him about. One time she was very seriously ill in hospital, I text him (I'll admit I withheld number as by this stage he had me blocked too) and the reply I got?

"Thanks for letting me know"

No concern, no asking how she was or asking to be kept informed, no call to dd (I'd given him the ward details if he didn't want to call mobile, I also gave him the names of the dr and named nurse in case he wanted to speak to them) he did NOTHING! He couldn't give a shit!

But I'm the bad guy!

And my dd was left thinking her dad barely cared if she lives or dies!

But the impression he gives people who don't know me or dd is that he was a wonderful, caring dad who was ripped out of his dds life by evil me.

I hear he's been caught out on this BS a few times doesn't stop him trying it.

He can't get away with it with wife 2 though as she and I were friends before their affair and we stay in touch and she knows exactly what happened and she argued with him about his shitty attitude too. It's the main reason she won't divorce him herself as even though they're now miserable together she fears he would treat their dc similarly