Being honest, would you be bothered about not seeing your SCs again if you and your partner split tomorrow?

[FlippidyFlop]

Would you? I see this on here a lot when step children are being discussed 'you might not see them again if you and DH split tomorrow'

I just don't think I would personally. I get on perfectly well with them but it's just not something that would bother me if me and DH ever split.

I have to say I have broken up with my ex during lockdown. He's had issues for a while and it all came to a head. Unfortunately I haven't seen DSD but I have been in contact with her and her mum to see how they are doing with the situation and hopefully we will meet up when we can.
This may not last forever but I honestly don't want her thinking I've just upped and left her because of this when I've been in her life 7 years.

I have had virtually the exact same experience as @sassbott has outlined in her last 3/4 posts.
By the time my exdp had gotten his head around the fact that HIS children were no more special than mine (or anybody else's) & that my kids were also eow kids in their dad's house, the damage was done.
His dc were all teens at this stage & very much felt that THEY should dictate their weekends with their dad. Fair enough. So I stepped back massively & told dp to just see them alone as that's what they wanted. It's not that they weren't welcome but I could no longer support a dynamic which made my kids take a back seat (& I mean the back seat in a very long bus) in their own home.
There's no doubt in my mind that his kids were products of the toxic relationship between their parents - but my kids did not need to suffer for that.
In fairness to exdp he went to counselling & did a lot of work on himself. But his learning self awareness only benefited him - his exw was so beyond toxic that he was banging his head against a brick wall. She wanted 'equality' for all the good stuff but god forbid exdp said no to or reprimanded his dc!! If that happened all hell broke loose & both he & they were told that "no" meant he didn't love them & had left them for my kids!
By the time we split his dc were too far gone in replicating their mother's behaviour for me to even want to try to bond with them any more.
The breaking point for me came on a disastrous joint holiday where their behaviour to me, my kids but most of all their dad, was to me just awful. They were rude to him; ridiculously demanding of his time (the then 13 year old would even follow him to the loo) & treated him like a non stop atm. They were so entitled it was beyond belief (& they were 13, 16 & 19 at this stage).
When we spilt 2 of his siblings remarked to me that they found his kids increasingly hard work; that their dm expected them to include them in all their own family activities & if they didn't she gave out yards.but never said a word of thanks & the kids were getting just as bad but like in @sassbott's situation they kept plugging away out of loyalty to exdp & the dc.
Exdp has a duty of care to his kids & I totally got that. That's why I gave up my future happiness - because I'm a parent & I get it. However, I also now (from my own dc, exh & his dw) that it doesn't have to be like this.
My kids are taught to respect adults who respect them. They KNOW who their parents are & they don't expect anyone else to parent them because they realise the world does not actually revolve around them. They also don't have bitter parents dripping poisonous crap in their ears! To this end they are able to form good boundaried relationships with lots of people including their sm, her family, their own aunts, uncles, teachers etc. without expecting anything bar kindness from any of them.
I was never going to be able to bond with my 'sc' because their expectation of how I (& indeed other family members) should treat them, as dictated to them by their dm, was unrealistic & not normal, healthy or achievable.
In short there was nothing I could do without making my own children second best.
I am a first & exw & yet I believe the amount of women responsible for using their children as weapons designed to keep themselves as top dog in all family relationships is truly, truly shocking & is appalling parenting.
Exdp made many mistakes - I'm not saying he was blameless - but he really, really worked on both himself & onchanging things around for his dc, but he was (& still is I'd say) fighting a losing battle given the dc's ages & his ex's personality.

Again apologies for bold txt - not sure why my posts do this 🙄

Applauding your resilience @WooMaWang

Love that you have insisted on some things for the benefit of your DS and to preserve your sanity. Your DS sounds like a very patient young man - you should be proud.

Magda, I remember your posts from way back when I posted under a different name. I came off this board for a while because it was so vile.

I think I’m where you were a few years ago tbh regards my relationship. Now in fairness to my DP’s DC, the eldest is fine. The youngest continues to display rejecting behaviours - very closed down child. But said child is very attached to their mother so tbh I just keep my distance. They’re young though - so far off the behaviours you Are talking about.

I just find the whole set up dysfunctional. I find being around my DP when he’s with them draining. It’s a very alien concept to me to suddenly flip a household dynamic because children have arrived. I can no longer have it happen in my house. My children are ‘ok’ with it but truthfully, they don’t see me enough (I work FT and then they obviously have contact with my exh), so they view their downtime with me as precious. Even if that downtime is spent cleaning bedrooms / doing gardening/ washing cars - we’re together and they have my undivided attention.

The fact that my DP doesn’t fathom that is beyond me. When he ‘wants’ xyz for his children from me, it very much eroded into my time with my children.
And if his asks came (as I’ve mentioned upthread) with a healthy dose of humility/ gratitude and acknowledgement (that actually giving up my time is precious and not something I should want to / have to do)...it would probably make this all more palatable.

But he can’t. I’ve had varying guides of ‘its a privilege to be with my children.’ ‘Whats wrong with you, this isn’t healthy or normal.’ Etc etc. I get pressure and as I’ve started to push back, I get the very clear insinuation that something is lacking in me to not want to do xyz. The sad fact is that I know I’m not alone in facing this. A lot of NRP’s act this way, desperate to recreate the perfect ‘family.’ It’s exhausting to try and boundary.

The key to healthy Sc/ SP dynamics lies simply with the parents. The parents need to foster open, respectful relationships. Where they recognise that they only people whose job it is to meet their children’s needs is theirs. No one else’s. Anything anyone else then does should be met with gratitude.

When the parents themselves cannot model this however (respectful, grounded, humble) because they instead are fighting for control/ upper hand...this is what bleeds into THEIR family and their children. How can it not?

Then when you get a me. No conflict with ex. Happy grounded and respectful children. Robust parenting. That dysfunction very quickly becomes unpalatable. Especially when a dual tier system inevitably starts to operate...I don’t stop my world for my own children but I absolutely must do things differently and change my behaviour (in my own home), when my partners children arrive?

F**k that. I’m mid 40’s. Work hard. Have my own home. I am not being told (because of someone else children) what it is I should/ should not be doing on my downtime in my house.

It’s an expectation I find galling to stomach. And it’s my DP’s expectation, nothing to do with his exw. So sadly, he (for me), continues to be the main problem. He simply can’t allow his children to wander into my home. Be warmly welcomed and allowed to play as they wish. And for my household to continue as is, with no special treatment.

He (aswell as their mother) are on track to raise incredibly entitled children. And I want those children nowhere near my healthy/ grounded little humans.

@Magda72
Your post resonates with all of us I would say.
The crux of it is the first wives,they know their kids are like everyone else but it’s a stick to beat their exDH with and manipulate everyone, my DPs kids are to be honest just nasty human beings, they copy their mothers entitled manipulative behaviour and it’s sad as they will have a miserable life that will fall very short of their and their mothers deluded ideas.

And the above is why I find people who post on these boards, with no first hand experience of these situations, galling and also disrespectful.

I’ve been through my own divorce and navigated my children through that trauma. I’ve worked so incredibly hard with my exh to foster peaceful co-parenting relationships. It’s not been easy but we are doing our best. We both refuse to raise entitled, rude, spoilt children (and it can very much happen in both parents homes post divorce as both parents focus on fun and the fact that they don’t see their children enough). I don’t see my children enough, but it is what it is. I have to work with what I’ve got and parent as well as I can with the time I have. So I do.

As a result, I have a calm and happy and healthy home.

To go from the above to a situation where children are the most important humans to ever walk the planet. Is a complete antithesis to what most normal and healthy parents deal with. It’s completely alien. To non stop hear ‘I want my children to have fun.’ to me is lazy parenting. Sorry but it is. And the people behind these dynamics are the parents.

Huge amounts of damage is being done through lack of proper parenting. And through parents who view their children as ‘top of the tree.’ When these children become young adults and go out into the big wide world, they are in for the shock of their lives.

Sorry @SBTLove the above was not directed at your post, it was at the theme of the board in general and magda s/ my situation.

Magda, I remember your posts from way back when I posted under a different name. I came off this board for a while because it was so vile.

This board has become more understanding and supportive over the past couple of years and it’s lovely to see. You couldn’t say anything remotely negative about DSCs/Ex wives/stepparenting without certain posters piling in being utterly vile.
There is a lot more empathy these days towards the problems that stepmums face.
There wasn’t much of that a few years ago.

And I forgot to add. There are a lot of strong minded people on this board these days who I see a lot, who say things as they are. I enjoy reading your posts because they resonate with me so much.

@excelledyourself

How's your husbands 3yo compared to the 6yo?

Tbh, it feels like there might be more hope with the 3 year old. His behaviour is challenging, but some of that is just being nearly 4. The rest is a complex mix of his screwed up family dynamics. He appears to have a very weird relationship with his mother (lots of people who’ve seen them together regularly have commented on this). He’s weird and controlling and clingy-yet-distant with her. He’s also a bit weird about DH but not so badly. He is destructive and his eating is weird. He seems to want to be in trouble and seems to maximise this. And he’s enormously demanding (more so than would be normal for his age).

He’s suffered from being the less favoured child all his life. DSD seems to be everyone’s favourite in her extended family and this shows in some really obvious ways. MIL, for example, keeps a dedicated bedroom in her house as DSD’s room. This is specifically and explicitly referred to as ‘DSD’s room’. DSS has nowhere to sleep and has to stay in a travel cot (he’s too big for) in a room with whatever adult has taken him to visit. MIL refused an offer of a bunk bed on the basis that ‘DSD needs her own room’ (the DSC share a room at their mum’s house). So DSS is given the message, loud and clear, that DSD is more important than him. They always visit together too, so there’s absolutely no justification for it. (I’m not taking DS3 to visit at all, because he seems to barely exist in MIL’s eyes, and I’m not having him subjected to that screwed up dynamic).

DH claims he doesn’t favour DSD (indeed he says he works harder with her because he finds DSS’s personality easier). But he definitely has contributed much to the dynamic and he does still (after me pointing out several ways in which DSS was missing out or being unfairly treated - things like bedtime routines where DSS got under 5 minutes of stories/one to one time but DSD then got an hour of the same) tend to have much lower expectations of DSD than DSS - even though she’s 3 years older than him. For example, when she was 4 and even 5, he’d believe that she was too little and fragile and helpless to walk anywhere so he’d carry her on his shoulders or let her go in the buggy. Meanwhile at 18 months to 2, DSS would be expected to walk alongside his much older sister being pushed in a buggy. He stopped using the buggy entirely with DSS many months ago and never carries him. DSD (nearly 7) still tries to get him to carry her though (and she’ll make a face at DSS if she gets this). He just didn’t ask, not because he doesn’t want to be carried or cuddled, but because he doesn’t think he’ll get it.

So, lots of issues. But more hope, I think. DSS is much more responsive to reasonable attempts at discipline. For example, if he’s missed out on a trip to the park because he’s thrown a massive tantrum over something, he’ll behave better so that he doesn’t miss out next time. DSD is much more difficult and frustrating and doesn’t seem to care if she’s in trouble or want to consider changing her behaviour. (But, she is very good at school so it’s not that she can’t behave; she doesn’t want to). Plus she tends to respond to fairness as if she’s being treated less favourably than DSS - because she’s so used to preferential treatment.

Huge amounts of damage is being done through lack of proper parenting. And through parents who view their children as ‘top of the tree.’ When these children become young adults and go out into the big wide world, they are in for the shock of their lives.

⬆️ This......

I’m seeing this firsthand in the situation with my SC due to the environment that both their parents have created. As explained further up thread I have detached for my own reasons but I’m sitting back now and seeing this unfold. They are 15 and 17 and walk into every and any situation assuming they are superior to everyone else and cannot understand when everyone does not give them special treatment.

It just makes me more determined to give my children robust, healthy parenting and to raise happy and respectful humans.

He’s suffered from being the less favoured child all his life. DSD seems to be everyone’s favourite in her extended family and this shows in some really obvious ways. MIL, for example, keeps a dedicated bedroom in her house as DSD’s room. This is specifically and explicitly referred to as ‘DSD’s room’. DSS has nowhere to sleep and has to stay in a travel cot (he’s too big for) in a room with whatever adult has taken him to visit. MIL refused an offer of a bunk bed on the basis that ‘DSD needs her own room’ (the DSC share a room at their mum’s house). So DSS is given the message, loud and clear, that DSD is more important than him. They always visit together too, so there’s absolutely no justification for it. (I’m not taking DS3 to visit at all, because he seems to barely exist in MIL’s eyes, and I’m not having him subjected to that screwed up dynamic).

Wow, this is fucked up.

@MeridianB

Applauding your resilience *@WooMaWang*

Love that you have insisted on some things for the benefit of your DS and to preserve your sanity. Your DS sounds like a very patient young man - you should be proud.

Thanks. So much of the time I feel like the evil stepmother, stomping on everyone’s fun with my ridiculous ideas that everyone should have clear expectations and boundaries with consistent consequences (issued promptly).

And I’m apparently guilty of favouritism towards my DS (well, obviously he’s my child so I love him). But it’s not favouritism that means his behaviour needs less intervention. He just behaves better.

He’s not perfect - obviously. But the issues are often petty and due to laziness or thoughtlessness. Plus there’s a bit of pre-teen attitude creeping in. The difference is that he’s used to being parented. So I can address something with just saying his name and/or raising my eyebrow at him and he’ll stop doing whatever he shouldn’t be.

Plus there’s the issue that leaving your light on in your bedroom or forgetting to put your towel on the radiator are minor issues (and often affect only him). The DSC’s behaviour problems are things that affect everyone - they make almost every mealtime a miserable experience for example, and often cause us to not be able to do things because there’s no time. And, there’s a fairness issue around (lack of consequences). Losing your screen time for a day (in lockdown when it’s how you have social contact with your friends) for not opening your bedroom curtains is harsh, but even more so when there’s no consequence for hitting your brother in the face with a car.

@aSofaNearYou

He’s suffered from being the less favoured child all his life. DSD seems to be everyone’s favourite in her extended family and this shows in some really obvious ways. MIL, for example, keeps a dedicated bedroom in her house as DSD’s room. This is specifically and explicitly referred to as ‘DSD’s room’. DSS has nowhere to sleep and has to stay in a travel cot (he’s too big for) in a room with whatever adult has taken him to visit. MIL refused an offer of a bunk bed on the basis that ‘DSD needs her own room’ (the DSC share a room at their mum’s house). So DSS is given the message, loud and clear, that DSD is more important than him. They always visit together too, so there’s absolutely no justification for it. (I’m not taking DS3 to visit at all, because he seems to barely exist in MIL’s eyes, and I’m not having him subjected to that screwed up dynamic).

Wow, this is fucked up.

Yes. DH isn’t happy about it. But I don’t think he fully appreciates how shockingly awful it is.

It’s just indefensible. I don’t need to start an AIBU to know that I don’t want my children (even the one that’s her grandchild) subjected to that.

@WooMaWang. I could weep at the damage these bloody idiots are doing to all three kids, but your DSS in particular. At least your DS has you to protect him from the worst of it. So sad for them all though

@WooMaWang So, so sad to read about your DSS and MIL. Has she been called out on this? If not, your DH is enabling this - he should stop taking them. Or just drop DSD off - for a few months

@sassbott - you paint such a powerful picture. I can totally understand you desire to protect your children and their time with you. I can see why you are considering the future of your relationship.

@WooMaWang I agree with you re the look/ stern word. It doesn’t take much to get children whom are used to discipline in line.

I think the dynamic you are describing is shocking. His DD is manipulative and is being rewarded. By everyone. God help them when she’s a teen.

@funinthesun19 yes the board seems a lot better. Plus I’m a lot more robust now and know what I know. I pay no heed to people who have absolutely no clue about how hard these situations are. Couldn’t care less in fact.
There are huge swathes of society with limited insights/ knowledge and that’s the sort of thinking that when I push back on my DP and say ‘no, I don’t find any enjoyment in being around your children, because of the dynamic you are forcing’, empowers him to act indignantly with the lines of ‘you have a problem with my children’. And it’s pure BS. No I have a problem with how you parent your children. I have a problem with your expectations of everyone else regarding your children. I have a problem with you projecting your wants / needs onto others. I have a problem with your indignant outrage when I say ‘no I don’t want to go swimming with you and your kids, it’s boring.’ I have a problem with how myopic you are regarding your children. I have a problem that when they come into MY home (that I pay for entirely), they’re rude. Ignoring the home owner, engaging in attention seeking behaviours, sitting at the table and essentially refusing to engage with anyone around that table (including the people whose home it is), is RUDE.
My children would never be allowed to act that way. If I saw it once, I’d let it go. If I saw it again, I would have a word privately. And very clearly say, ‘when we visit people in their home, we need to behave certain ways. That includes talking to them and replying when they ask a question. And if you cannot do that, then I won’t take you back there as it’s impolite.’ If they then did it again, I would pull them up on it there and then and say (gently) ‘you know what we discussed, you’re doing it again.’

That’s parenting. That’s what I do say in day out.
To then be told. Be different. And allow my children to behave as they wish because (they’re young, they’re being manipulated, they’re fine - you’re the problem). It’s unacceptable. Plain and simple.

So no. I don’t want to hang around children who are being parented that way. Sadly, nor do I want to be with a partner who thinks that how he behaves towards me regarding his children is acceptable. It’s nothing short of exhausting to have to defend your behaviour in the face of a dysfunctional situation.

So no, I no longer care what people think or say.
My home is calm. I parent my children. Zero conflict with the exH. The dysfunction can continue without me thanks very much.

@MeridianB He has (and does) argue with her about it. He offered her a bunk bed when we moved to this house but she declined the offer (repeatedly).

I think he was so ingrained in the wider family dynamic (and clearly contributing to it) that he didn’t see it as an issue at all until I reacted with horror on hearing about it. I still don’t think he properly understands how utterly fucked up it is.

Even without the bunk bed, it would have been possible to insist that the DSC shared the bigger room. DH could have taken down the camp bed we have in a cupboard and one of the DSC could have slept in that. DH could have slept in what would no longer be ‘DSD’s room’. But no.

If it were me, I’d have completely refused to visit unless this DSD’s room nonsense was stopped. Completely. I would not have even entertained the notion from the instant that DSS was on his own room at home. Even before that I’d have stopped it being referred to as ‘DSD’s room’. DC do not need a grandparent who’ll show such blatant favouritism in their lives.

I can’t do anything about the DSC in that regard. Their parents (both of them) have allowed it. And, tbh, they created the dynamic as much as anyone else. The single most shocking thing I’ve heard from DH about his children was that DSS was (and this is a direct quote) ‘unpopular from the start’ because he had the temerity to be a standard baby who needed attention and cried to get it, rather than just being convenient and sleeping all the time like DSD (there’s a big story there, but allowing that wasn’t good for DSD either). Obviously I only heard that particular horror after DS3 was born (and in the context of DH being irritated about me always holding and feeding our little Velcro baby - who was only a couple of weeks old - rather than just putting him in a cot and ‘leaving him to cry it out’).

There are several hills I will die on in this relationship, and they are all about protecting my sons (DS1 is an adult and has moved away for work, so he’s not affected by this). I don’t care if DH thinks I am being controlling about my ‘parenting style’ with DS3; I will continue to respond to and meet his needs rather than leaving him to quietly despair and expect him to just fit into my life. I will not allow DS’s life to be determined by the DSC; I will continue to support and be interested in his hobby (with its time consuming training and events); I will ensure that his wants (as well as his needs) are fairly taken into consideration when he’s here.

And, finally, I will not have any of my children subjected to the weird hierarchical dysfunction in DH’s family. I don’t think I need to worry too much, as none of them (bar his grandmother, who is actually lovely and has no part in the dynamic - but is extremely elderly and marginalised by her daughter) show much interest in DS3 and none in my DS1 or DS2. So it’s easy enough for me to proceed as if he’s only got one set of grandparents. (Actually, my ex’s parents would happily adopt DS3 as a grandchild because they are lovely people).

But, returning to the thread topic: this is the kind of story that lies behind the vast majority of what MN so often sees as evil stepmother behaviour. All families are complex, and an apparently detached SM in a blended family is very often a way to navigate and survive a dysfunctional set of dynamics and relationships. Most are probably a bit less screwed up than the one I’ve gotten myself into, but people should think about why and recognise that sometimes the most caring thing a SM can do is to step back and detach.

I think the dynamic you are describing is shocking. His DD is manipulative and is being rewarded. By everyone. God help them when she’s a teen.

Funnily enough, that’s exactly what SMIL said to me the last time she saw DSD. You are both totally right. It’s desperately sad for DSD (and DSS).

Huge amounts of damage is being done through lack of proper parenting. And through parents who view their children as ‘top of the tree.’ When these children become young adults and go out into the big wide world, they are in for the shock of their lives
I have said exactly this to my DP about his kids, I’ve never come across such spoiled, indulged kids. Anything they ask for for xmas, birthday, they get, their mother has run up £10,000s of debt (contributing factor to their divorce) just to buy ‘stuff’, 9 yr old has macbook, laptop, ipad,switch, xbox, phone and is getting a gaming pc for xmas, my DP now refuses to contribute towards excessive gifts and buys his own, he has tried repeatedly to explain to her that they don’t need and certainly don’t appreciate any of it but her response is to ensure the DC known dad wouldn’t pay for it all 😡
They value nothing and are in for a rude awakening as adults when they have to support themselves.

‘when we visit people in their home, we need to behave certain ways. That includes talking to them and replying when they ask a question. And if you cannot do that, then I won’t take you back there as it’s impolite.’ If they then did it again, I would pull them up on it there and then and say (gently) ‘you know what we discussed, you’re doing it again.’

@sassbott What does he say when you explain this? Still the defensive nonsense about 'you don't like my kids'?

@MeridianB for ages he ignored it (years ago, went on for months). Told me I’m the adult and I need to (essentially) be the grown up. It took my own child (eldest) asking me ‘why do they come here and ignore us in our home’ for me to realise this wasn’t my issue and my child could see (and experience) what was happening and I had to put a stop to it.

He was unable to handle it robustly, so actually I stepped back from contact and pushed him to start doing the majority of it in his home. I said it was not for me to enforce my parenting style on him and it was for him to figure out how he wished to parent and raise his children.

Since then I tolerate no nonsense from his children. I once got them little gifts (cannot remember the occasion) and the older one got something that my children had as said child was old enough. The youngest got something different. When the youngest saw they didn’t have what the eldest had they threw my gift to one side in disgust. I then calmly said, that’s quite rude and if you continue to do that then I won’t buy you anything again. Said child tantrummed off. My DP followed. Eldest child was sat quietly, playing.
I asked, ‘does x Child do this at home.’ Response? No.

If my child had ever acted that way, they would have been chastised immediately and told in no uncertain terms that their behaviour was unacceptable. To go and apologise to the person in question and that I did not expect them to behave in such a way. That did not happen. My DP’s response? ‘Well they were upset that they didn’t get the same present as the eldest.’

Jesus wept. Welcome to parenting. My eldest got given a phone when starting secondary. Do you think my younger children tantrummed off or do you think they calmly accepted that as the elder sibling, that’s the present they got? It was the latter. They didn’t even bat an eyelid.

He makes excuses for them, all the time. They engage in attention seeking behaviours, he cannot see it. They’re young. They ignore people? Well perhaps my style is a little direct and intimidating.

There is always an excuse for the children and an inate defensiveness I neither understand nor support. Children are children. They will push boundaries. Be rude. Be lovely. Be hideous. Be amazing. Be disrespectful. They’re little humans testing the waters.

I can view my children as all of the above and not be remotely defensive about it. But instead comment ‘yeah I see that too, do you think it’s a phase?’. I’m not blind to who they are. Because I don’t view them as an extension of me/ my parenting. I view them as independent to me. So if anyone was to criticise them, my response is not to be remotely defensive.

That’s the core difference.

I can also list a long set of behaviours that I find intensely irritating about my children.
Behaviours I sometimes find a little concerning.
He cannot do either. His children are fine. He’s fine. The problem, time and again. Is me.

(Don’t worry, I know it’s not me)

I'm from blended families.

When DF split with my wicked witch of a stepmother my stepbrothers went with her of course. They're on my FB but quite honestly, despite us being siblings for many years, it was just like neighbour's moving away. My dad felt the same too. He missed them a bit but they weren't his kids, even if he did do the lions share of the parenting.

As for my mum's Stepson, I haven't seen him in over a decade and he's still my stepbrother. I just have no cause nor desire really, to go see him. I mean, I like him and all, but we don't socialise and so far there have been no family events except my wedding which they were unable to attend. (We invited but they had things going on)