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Original poster

Family court and reduction in contact for private nursery

298 replies

ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/12/2018 13:07

My other half is in family court tomorrow. He's self representing. It's a contested final hearing.

He recieved his ex's position statement which states she will agree no increase to current contact (which we expected). But that she wants to discuss a reduction in contact to facilitate the child going to private nursery 5 days a week as she wishes to go back to work. She is offering the bog standard every other weekend with one evening for dinner but must stay locally. The child is currently 22 months old.

He currently has 3 days wed/thur/Fri with an overnight in week 1 and Fri Sat sun in week 2 with an overnight. He wants to increase contact to add the additional overnights in.

He has no issue with her going to nursery. But since he already has this contact and he can care for the child instead of her going to nursery, how could this go down in a final hearing?

He has to prepare himself as self rep - and needs to work out how to address it without coming across badly. Any tips or experience with this?

OP posts:
Ethel80 · 04/12/2018 21:52

OP, sorry if I've missed this but is he doing a PCGE or a teaching degree? I ask because if it's a degree then uni and placement hours will likely change each year so he can't rely on always being available the same days.

Obviously if it's a one year PGCE, ignore me!

Original poster
ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/12/2018 21:54

Okay, current contact is:

Week 1:
Weds 10am - Thurs 6pm
Fri 10am-6pm

Week 2:
Fri 10am-6pm
Sat 10am - sun 6pm.

He is only in classes every other weds and Thurs as he is doing his study part time. He does have Mondays and Tuesdays as placement days, so swapping those days isn't possible either. It took a huge amount of effort to make his study work along side being avaliable those days mum stipulated for his daughter. Now she wants to reduce it. Which he could, but why reduce it just so mum can put her in childcare full time?

She was 16 months old when he got this order. Please believe me when I say, a reduction in contact isn't in the child's best interest. I do believe court will see that, all I wanted from this post was to see if anyone else had this happen, and how they argued against it. I'm guessing not many have.

OP posts:
Original poster
ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/12/2018 21:55

Part time pgce.

OP posts:
SunnyintheSun · 04/12/2018 21:59

And when he starts work in a years time will he be asking for contact days to change to enable him to work part time? If so, he’s going to do better by being accomodating of his ex’s job now.

What’s wrong with Thurs-Saturday each week? One day in nursery for now and it means he could work Monday to Wednesday once he qualifies (or use the same nursery if he wants to work more).

Original poster
ThisMustBeMyDream · 04/12/2018 22:04

He's not finished until summer 2020.

He currently has her 6 days out of 14. All 6 of those he is avaliable to her. Why would he want to miss out on her childhood? Why would she want to see her dad less in order to be in childcare? He missed the vast majority of her first year by trying to make things amicable before going to court. He regrets trying to be the better person all that time.

He's doing what he believes to be in his child's best interests, and I can't say I'd do things any differently.

OP posts:
SunnyintheSun · 04/12/2018 22:12

I’m no legal expert but would have thought the court and parents would all prefer an order that will work in the longer term for the child, rather than everyone being back in court in 18 months and the child having to adjust to a new routine at that point?

What’s the status quo now could end up being the status quo in 2020. It might be worth your partner looking ahead and working out what’s best for when both parents are working and the child is at school.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 04/12/2018 22:12

Does the 2 year old funding work in the same way as the 15hrs for 3 year olds used to work? Because there’s a chance the nursery won’t get paid for the hours not attended, if so.

Mumshappy · 04/12/2018 22:13

You dont need to justify a father wanting to play a part in his childs life. His position should be that current contact is well established and beneficial for the child. I dont know what Cafcas are recommending or if the contact he currently gets is classed as 'interim contact' by the court. Most judges wont concern themselves with childcare arrangements during a parents allocated time. Does mum have a residence order? Im assuming social services were involved due to issues with her parenting from reading between the lines? Did your partners initial application request just contact or did he apply for residence?

TheFishInThePot · 04/12/2018 22:31

My Son's nursery told me that we couldn't reserve a session to use half of the time, the manager told me that if they were ever audited it would be asked why they were accepting funding for a session regularly unused.
I don't get this comment Childcare is the responsibility of the parent who needs it. He wouldn't expect her to pay if he needed it.
If he is asking for a day he can't commit to every week then he is the one that needs the childcare, on the weeks he can't do those days.

I don't know how a court would see it as I have no experience of that, but I know from being a nursery nurse and using a private nursery that a lot of the children are part time, especially at toddler age, and some allow part time staff too, so it is best to choose days and stick with
them so the child can be used to the Wed/ Thurs nursery staff/ children and settle well.

dinosaurglitterrepublic · 04/12/2018 22:36

It is essentially two separate arguments. He is making an application to increase contact to include more overnights as the previous order was vague and mum won’t agree. This should be uncontroversial if everything is going well and is essentially in line with the existing court order.

The second is the mother’s cross application to reduce contact/ change days which is opposed by the father. In relation to that he argues he has made life arrangements around the existing order, the status quo should be maintained, it is in the best interests of the child, the mother doesn’t even have a full time job yet and it is entirely speculative (she may be unable to find employment). Even if she were to find employment and obtain full time childcare place for child, there is nothing to prejudice her (no disadvantage to the mother) if some days the child is not in nursery but cared for by the father.

Ultimately, it’s up to the judge to decide and you can only put forward your best arguments.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 04/12/2018 22:40

I know that was the case for the 15hrs, fish. Although some nurseries just billed parents for the lost funding.

Trying to find a workable compromise might be a better idea than doggedly sticking to the status quo because it works for you even though it makes the resident parent’s life harder.

MissMalice · 04/12/2018 23:23

Not all nurseries insist on 15 hours spread equally across the week.

swingofthings · 05/12/2018 05:45

This strike as a request that means lower responsibility to pay maintenance. You say he pays now, how much? Surely he can't be paying much with low/no income? Was he working before he decided to train to be a teacher?

His reasons might have nothing to do with money but he might need to prepare himself for her making that argument and defending better than by saying 'no it has nothing to do with money' when really what is asking for is more time with her when she's asleep most of that time.

I also think the judge will see that his request is about what suits him, ie. contact around his lifestyle rather than him adjusting his lifestyle at least to some e tend to suit what is best for the child. Judges don't like to impose change on kids as stability is what is best for them. He will have more chances of requesting a change when she starts school which will also be when he'll be working.

Halloweenallyearround · 05/12/2018 07:34

Not sure why there is so much negativity and why it's turned in to a childcare cost debate.
Isn't it good to see a dad wanting to be part of his dc upbringing.
Court orders need to be update and change with the dc, they need to
Reflect the dc growth. One doesn't fit for ever.
The idea that the dc may go to nursery or when they go to school really isn't a reason to prevent or lessen his time unless he's not reliable.
But I do think it would be better to
Try and come up with some balance, making the mum pay for child care she doesn't use or the weeks
Not matching will make her frustrated and there for communication harder in the long run.

Original poster
ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/12/2018 08:13

He has no CMS liability as a student. An increase in overnights won't change that.

The reason he wants to increase them is so a) his daughter isn't doing up to 2 hours in the car on the days he has her for the day. Mum won't allow collection at a reasonable time. So he picks her up at 10. Gets her back at 10.45. No time for any activity or group, lunch is 11.30, she sleeps at 12 (mum's set the routine) til 2.30. Then she has to have dinner at 4. Set off at 5 for home. There's no time for any enjoyable activities. If she would allow collection at 9, he would be able to take her to a 10am playgroup at least. She won't agree to it. Having the additional overnights means he can reduce the driving for his daughter down to 2 hours a week.

OP posts:
dinosaurglitterrepublic · 05/12/2018 08:31

It’s certainly a bit tricky to come up with an arrangement that suits everyone, but that is why we have courts to decide when people can’t agree. Good luck today, hope all goes well.

TooSassy · 05/12/2018 09:04

Good luck today to your DP OP. Let us know how it goes.

Parts of this thread have made my blood boil. There are so many posts about ‘deadbeat dads’ on here, i cannot believe a thread has descended into a debate about childcare costs when there is a father prepared to step in and help care for the child.
This country needs huge overhaul in society and work in general with more parents doing shared care. Having a uterus does not qualify anyone to automatically have the upper hand in how contact should progress. You have a dad here fighting for more time, I hope he gets it.

Contact can then be reviewed again when the DC starts school. Nothing to do with children is ever set in stone

Mumshappy · 05/12/2018 09:19

Well said TooSassy. There are lots of deadbeat dads out there but there are also women who use their children as weapons day day out.

Mumshappy · 05/12/2018 09:20

Sorry day in day out

swingofthings · 05/12/2018 09:32

An increase in overnights won't change that
It will when he starts to work. It is not unreasonable to look at an arrangement now that will be best for the child when she is at school, which is only in 2 years time. More overnight mid week is not going to work when it will mean the child will have to travel 1 hour morning and late afternoon to go to school. The reality of such an arrangement when parents live in different towns is that it is not for the best interest of the child.

The judge will only consider the best interest of the child not what her parents want because it suits them better.

Can he evidence that his course and placements will remain the same next year and year after?

MissMalice · 05/12/2018 09:36

The court has already said overnights with dad should increase.

Original poster
ThisMustBeMyDream · 05/12/2018 10:11

Okay, so well over 4 years of a child's life should be dictated by the attendance of school? That is not a logic I can grasp.

I used to do 45 minute commutes to school as a young child, because I attended my mum's school. The car drives to school and back are some of my fondest memories of my mum. Singing to all her favourite songs, telling stories, chatting away.

My eldest child also had a similar commute to primary school... because he too went to my mum's school as she was a head teacher by then.

None of us have resented that travelling. No one had to get up at the crack of dawn to achieve it.

She doesn't start school until Sept 2021, and the reality is, no one knows what could happen before then. Should dad spend less time with his child because of something that is 2 years 9 months away? As for her preschool year, there is the option to split funding, or dad can take her if he wishes. Why can't she go to dad's school nursery? My point is, no one has made a decision on schooling. She could indeed go to dad's school, either through choice or because dad got a job there.

I just don't see how anyone can justify a reduction in contact for a small child who is years away from formal schooling.

Anyway, he's in court now. It's a full day hearing. So I'll await his messages and update later.

OP posts:
dinosaurglitterrepublic · 05/12/2018 10:12

It is not unreasonable to look at an arrangement now that will be best for the child when she is at school, which is only in 2 years time.

It really is unreasonable. Two years is a long time in which dad can be enjoying extra contact. Surely the benefit of this is obvious? Also, a lot can change in two years, attempting to accommodate an arrangement for circumstances anticipated in two years time is just odd. The mother doesn’t even have a job yet, the child isn’t in school for years, yet contact should be worked around that basis?

But hey, the dad is a selfish idiot for wanting contact to fit around the actual arrangements as the currently exist. Honestly, these fathers.

swingofthings · 05/12/2018 10:18

But he already went to court, why didn't he ask for what he is asking now at that time?

You're the one who brought up the travelling now as one of the reasons to have overnights in week.

I'm not saying that he should have more contact but it seems to be all around what suits him and his work/studies rather than what is best for the girl.

dinosaurglitterrepublic · 05/12/2018 10:20

I just saw your update. People on this forum just like to be bloody mindedly contrary. Try posting in a new thread that you want to reduce contact with your DSD due to the impact of school arrangements in two years time and the impossibility of undertaking a 45 minutes journey to school. Feel free to raise concerns as to how EOW contact will impact on the mother’s childcare arrangements for a job she doesn’t yet have. I guarantee you that the responses you receive will in no way reflect many of those posted here, you will be told you are evil, you should just make it work regardless and you shouldn’t have got involved with a man with children and your partner shouldn’t have had children unless you are both prepared to make these kind of sacrifices 😂