Give me strength

[Tiger13]

Hello, I'm new to mumsnet and would love to get some advice. My step-daughters mum has recently died and now won't contact either me or my husband. Her control freak of a step-father has commenced legal proceedings and even threatened us with a restraining order when we sent a message to step-daughter saying we loved her. Step-father is ASKING my husband to hand over PR and custody and of course given my step daugther is grieving and doesn't want anything else to change is saying she wants the same arrangements. We are looking at things for her future not the here and now but we are now being forced into a custody battle which we didn't want to put my step-daughter through. I'm broken hearted for my step-daughter but I am distraught that she won't speak to us and the longer it goes on the worse it's going to be when contact resumes. Everything has to be a fight with the step-father and it's just not necessary and is going to impact my step-daughter further. If anyone has had similar experience I would be interested to hear how you dealt with the situation.

tiger A holiday that was booked before your DSD mum died, presumably? Would her SF really still take the DCs on a holiday they planned as a family, despite his wife's death?
I can understand the desire to get away and take the DCs somewhere, but that should be done in consultation with the DCs bereavement counsellors, surely?

What about before the court makes a decision, though? In this case, the various agencies charged with protecting children are disregarding the views of the DCs parent, which is that the DC is at risk remaining with the stepparent. Those agencies (and the stepfather) are actively facilitating the DCs choice, against the wishes of her parent - before a court has made a judgement

It is not those agencies jobs to sort out conflicts between adults. If they have investigated and decided there is no or no sufficient evidence to take action, then they will do nothing. If you are not happy with the actions or inactions of those agencies you either have to complain or go to court to ask the court to make orders which may force them to intervene.

I know it is very hard for people to hear this when they are in the middle of situations and they firmly believe that they have clear and compelling evidence that another adult is dangerous or abusive. But if the state agencies such as the police or children's services don't agree with your evidence, you cannot expect them to take action on your say so.

Particularly not if that action might involve laying hands on a teenager who has clearly stated that she doesn't want their involvement.

Consider what message it would potentially give to this child if you try and prevent this holiday. Unless you think he might never bring her back to this jurisdiction, I would leave well alone.

If they have investigated and decided there is no or no sufficient evidence to take action, then they will do nothing.

In this case, the OP has indicated that the agencies have not investigated other then for the school to ask what the DD wants. The OP has been advised legally that they can do nothing - but there is nothing to suggest that the relevant agencies even know that the DC is living with an adult other than a parent. I was under the impression that private childcare arrangements away from parents that are longer then 28 days had to be notified to the local Ch services dept by law; does that exclude stepparents?

I am afraid they have investigated - the school has spoken to the child directly and what she has said has given them no cause to interfere with her current living arrangements.

They can't seriously be criticised for not bringing in a squad of police officers to interview everyone concerned.

If you are not happy with this situation you have to go to court. I have no idea about private child care arrangements away from parents, would have to look it up. But again, I suspect that legalism is creeping in here. The SF is not a stranger to her, he is the man who she has seen in a father's role for almost all the life she can remember.

Agencies dealing with child protection generally have an incredibly heavy case load involving pre verbal children who are at risk of serious harm, even death, so you can understand why they have to prioritise how and when they intervene in family affairs.

I have just found this in Richmond's policy docs

4.2 Family care (informal)
Route into the arrangement
• In these arrangements, the relative has chosen to take on the care of the child but does not have parental responsibility, and the arrangement was not made by the LA. The child is not a looked after child. The relative may have felt that the parents were unable to care for the child; or the parents may be dead or otherwise not available (e.g. in prison); or there may be an agreement between relatives due to difficult family circumstances. Some informal arrangements may in fact fall into the category of private fostering (see below).
Parental responsibility
• Parental responsibility remains with birth parents, but the person who cares for the child may do what is reasonable to safeguard or promote the child’s welfare.
Approval basis
• The LA plays no part in approving these arrangements. Duration
• Subject to discretion of person with PR. Placement supervision
• None.
Review of placement
• None.

My guess is that any LA would be very keen not to get involved in this.

spero it's clear from those guidelines that the parent with PR has to agree to the duration of the care by another family member - so if the parent with PR decides they want to agreement to end, then what? Tough? The DC remains with the relative, against the wishes of the parent, until a court decides?

Bonkers. What is the point of legislation if it is dismissed as legalism and the reality is that parents can't get help to protect their DCs when they need it most.

Well yes. If the child is old enough to express a clear view and resists removal. What I am saying is that the LA are not going to want to get involved in the dispute. So you either agree, mediate an agreement or go to court.

Life is messy and difficult, especially when you are dealing with the burgeoning autonomy of an adolescent. I don't see that this is the fault of the legal system.

Well, legalism or not, what the OP has described in tems of her DSD stepfathers behaviour certainly seems to fit Section 2 of the Child Abduction Act.
Police used to issue "harbouring notices" in these situation - they have been replaced with Child Abduction Warning Notices, I believe.

It's a very sad state of affairs when the relationship of a child with their stepparent is given higher priority than the relationship they have with their father, who has been an equal and consistent part of the child life.

Another factor to consider.

I understand that DSD has likely been influenced by SF and her DM in the past and staying put may be part of that and her sense of bereavement.

However based on my experience of my 15 year old DSD her friends are the centre of her world right now.

Moving away (even a few miles) would feel like moving to the moon.

Having lost her mum staying close to her friends is likely to be a key need for her.

It might help OP if you can ask her to visit with a friend. She will know you have to take them both back home so that might reduce any anxiety on her part.

Quite frankly the fact this man is looking after DSD makes me feel physically sick so no I very much doubt that we will authorise him to remove her from the country. Yes the holiday was booked in advance of the death.

We have to wait for her to contact us so at the moment we can't suggest anything. The SF will use anything, including the death of her mother to keep her away from us. Their sole goal was to damage the relationship my DH has with DSD. That won't change.

This sounds like such an awful situation Tiger. I know DP would be gutted if this happened in the event of his ex's death. Having never been in this situation and having no legal knowledge I've nothing to add on that front but wanted to say thinking of you. Hang in there and I just hope things resolve (in your favour) as soon as possible. 15 is so young to be in the clutches of this man! I lost someone aged 17 (not a close family member) and that was difficult enough so I can't begin to imagine what she must be going through! She's so lucky to have you both there for her even if she can't see that right now.

The DSD is 14 not 15 and so very vulnerable right now. I cannot get over my shock that a step parent can withhold any contact at all from a parent with PR. The mother couldn't withhold contact as it was court ordered visitation but a step parent threatens to get a restraining when 1 text message enquires after a distressed vulnerable daughter.

Truly shocking. Tiger your DH must be beside himself.

The court order now isn't worth the paper it's written on either.

DSD will be 15 in July.

tiger was the court order was a directive to your DSD mum alone? your DSD stepfather was not party to the proceedings, was he?

If you refuse to allow the holiday you are just allowing the step father more ammunition to prove how awful you are and this is likely to further alienate her. If it was booked before her mum's death and she wants to go, I just don't see what you are going to achieve by 'refusing to authorise it'.

Who has got her passport?

I think tiger said earlier SF had it

I keep hoping to come back to this thread tiger with a positive update. The situation is just heartbreaking.

I am glad the thread seems to have become more helpful re: some recent posters (s tbh).

Oh and btw - Peruvian I think your posts on this have been overly aggressive and misinformed. Worst of all totally unsupportive to Tiger.

yellow I have apologised to the OP for the tone of my earlier posts - my experience has been that the law is enforceable. spero has shattered my illusions.

This thread has struck terror into me as a parent - it has shattered and confidence I have that my DD would be protected by the authorities charged with child welfare and I will be seeking my own legal advice to determine how I can protect my DD if her dad dies. My DD is the same age as the OPs DSD and has the same coparenting arrangement, and I am only too aware of the obligations, guilt and loyalties she already experiences.

I cannot be confident that I would accept the advice that the OPs DP has been given - is prefer to be arrested than remain no contact with my grieving daughter while she was in the care of a violent and abusive man. I'd take the risk that once I'd retrieved my DD, she would be less inclined to remain loyal to her abusive stepfather.

I am really sorry to make anyone terrified.

But I think an important message to take from this is that the key to protecting your children must be to do what you can to resolve issues between adults that don't involve the children feeling they are being fought over or asked to make impossible choices.

I appreciate that this isn't always possible and some people are just abusive, even dangerous and then you have to take action.

But the combative tone of some posts does worry me. If you see these kind of human tragedies through the lens of wanting to enforce 'my rights' I think matters are not likely to end well. Because the law is a very blunt instrument to use when trying to deal with all the emotional fall out of parents separation.

I apologise to Tiger for implying she may be holding back on substantive issues, and for wrong advice. Tiger, I am so sorry, and also sorry that you and your dh are in this situation and for your dsd's position, too.

Spero, I have read the Court paper you linked to and a few others linked within that one. I was wondering if there is any long term follow up to those sort of cases? On the face of it, the Judges' careful decisions seem reasonable and just - but the judges themselves can have no idea if they were actually right, how did the children turn out? What did the children think of the decisions once they reached adulthood, or in their 30s? For all the authorities know, those decisions could actually be dreadful ones and the law needs adjusting to reflect it.

Jux, you have identified what is, in my view, one of the biggest weaknesses in the family court system - as far as I know there is no follow up about what happens, no statistics etc.

We only find out what has happened if it comes back to court.

I have often complained that courts make decisions on 'research' that doesn't appear to have a particularly solid basis - such as the assertion that indirect contact is a good way of restoring a direct relationship with a parent; I haven't been able to find out what evidence this repeated assertion is based on, I have appealed to no avail.

It would be very useful to have information about what happens after final orders are made.

I can see that most children would be sick to death of the whole justice system once their difficult case is done finally. So that makes it very hard to engage with them sufficiently to gather data after let alone when they're adults. I was worried about a few of the final Orders made, as they were made due to entrenched positions rather than on evidence based research showing that the child's long term best interests were being served. I did feel sorry for everyone involved in those (can't remember the phrase - intractable something?) including the judges. No one has a good time.

Tiger, having read those judgements, I do see where you are with this. It is a no-win situation, and I am so so sorry

Sadly I think it is a pretty inescapable truth that if a child has one or more adults in his/her life who don't have the emotional intelligence to step back from their own feelings and try to see things from the child's perspective, then this is going to have a long term negative impact on the child.

And sadly, there is very little the court or other state agencies can do to make this better. Emotionally dysfunctional adults have to have sufficient insight to want to get help and to want to improve their functioning. And sadly, most don't. they are convinced they are 'right', everyone else is 'wrong' and sod the consequences of that mind set.

I don't know what the answer is, other than very early intervention to try and rescue children from situations where they will grow up emotionally damaged and repeat the same patterns on their children. But that would be enormously difficult, expensive and intrusive, so its never going to happen.