Give me strength

[Tiger13]

Hello, I'm new to mumsnet and would love to get some advice. My step-daughters mum has recently died and now won't contact either me or my husband. Her control freak of a step-father has commenced legal proceedings and even threatened us with a restraining order when we sent a message to step-daughter saying we loved her. Step-father is ASKING my husband to hand over PR and custody and of course given my step daugther is grieving and doesn't want anything else to change is saying she wants the same arrangements. We are looking at things for her future not the here and now but we are now being forced into a custody battle which we didn't want to put my step-daughter through. I'm broken hearted for my step-daughter but I am distraught that she won't speak to us and the longer it goes on the worse it's going to be when contact resumes. Everything has to be a fight with the step-father and it's just not necessary and is going to impact my step-daughter further. If anyone has had similar experience I would be interested to hear how you dealt with the situation.

This must be so worrying for you both Tiger, and I really appreciate you're trying to resolve the situation without upsetting your DSD further! But, as others on this thread have said...it's hard to understand why the schools and authorities involved are not supporting this child's (and she is a child) father, who has full PR! Given that you've said earlier that the SF has a history of emotionally abusing your DSD, I cannot for the life of me understand such a bizarre situation!

It sounds like the position parents have been in when their children have been exploited in recent court cases and no one is listening - saying it is their choice.

Would agree with keeping lines of communications open and leave messages saying she has a warm loving home and is welcome. Also tackling the school legally. Hope you find a lawyer willing to attack.

You are really in between a rock and a hard place. I really, really hope that she sees sense. School should be helping her.

You must understand that I'm not posting things that are not true. I have been advised via an organisation that will in due course be officially involved that had my DH tried to take her from the school or anywhere else for that matter than he would be arrested for 'taking someone against their will' father or not. If she was younger it would have been deemed acceptable... I think.

OP, it's not possible for people to give you support and advice while you are so ambiguous in your posts. You may not be posting untruths, but you are not explaining the situation, and the omissions are critical to subsequent readers understanding and learning from your post.

A teen reading this post would believe that they could leave their family home in favour of life with an unrelated adult, and their parents could do nothing about it. A predatory sexual groomer reading this post will believe that all they need do is pursuade a victim to refuse to return to her parents and there will be nothing the authorities can do, and a parent who has had their teen taken from them will believe that they are powerless.

Whatever "organisation" is advising you is not referring to uk law - no one can be arrested for "taking someone against their will" - there is no such offence. Someone has made that up.

The legislation regarding kidnap, false imprisonment, and abduction is very clear, there are no ambiguities. The age of a child is immaterial to the laws that apply in the UK - parental responsibility extends until the DC is 18, and is frequently enforced up to that age.

It's unlikely to the point of being ludicrous that a loving, safe and authorised father would be arrested for removing his daughter from the care of an abusive and violent man - not so ludicrous that the same father would face criticism, condemnation and prosecution for leaving his Daughter in the care of an abuser in order to avoid upsetting her. Many child neglect cases stem from a desire not to "upset" the DC. It's a fundamental part of parenting.

What is most telling is your DPs apparent unwillingness to act. If the situation is as you have described, without any other significant elements, then I know of no parent who would passively take the advice of "organisations" to leave his Daughter at risk in the hands of a violent man. Parents I know would argue, fight and demand help from anyone and everyone they could until someone listened. Parents have campaigned publicly against "the system" when their DCs face far less risk. Why has your DP not contacted the media? What about local MPs, the Chief police officer, head of children's services? If what you have said is true, then these people are ultimately responsible for allowing his DD to be abused.

Accepting the schools position, despite it clearly being against the law, ignoring his responsibilities in law in favour of a "wait and see" approach is reprehensible - unless, of course, there are good reasons for his reluctance to act, and the advice he has received is specific to circumstances that you have not shared on here, be that immigration issues, past criminality or medical factors, to name a few possibilities.

The police will absolutely not arrest your DH for taking his own child from school. Even if he were removing his own child from her DM it would still be considered to be a civil matter; they would pass it over to social services and get it referred to the courts. In this case, where the person your DSD is living with is not a blood relative, they absolutely wouldn't get involved.

I would absolutely raise merry hell with the school, however. It is not their place to make judgements on whether it's appropriate for your DH to see his daughter without anything ratified by the courts. He has PR, ergo she is his responsibility.

PeruvianFoodLover- you seem fixated on what I'm not saying rather what I am saying. This is a thread, I can't put every bit of historical information that has occurred between my husband, ex wife and the SF. Although I'm sure it would make for interesting reading this is about DSD. And this is the position we find ourselves in.

This is a highly delicate situation and ultimately despite how angry and disappointed at the school and the messages we are getting from solicitors and child organisations, a relationship with a grieving child is at stake. I ONE HUNDRED percent agree that she should be with us but in the long run we would have got no where had my husband have been arrested. As explained the SF has been in her life since she was 2 and given her age the courts WILL take into consideration what she wants. Having been through court proceedings last year to stop the mother denying access at will we were told then had she have been 14 at the time they would have had a statement direct from DSD included in the case.
Right now she is saying that is 'she doesn't want anything else to change and the SF and her brother need her.' All members of this situation are legal UK citizens that have no medical problems and no criminal convictions- as I said the police didn't do anything re violence against my husband and SS and the police did nothing when we reported our concerns for the emotional abuse.

We haven't accepted the school's position and my husband has already issued one solicitors letter and gone in and signed forms as well as having a legal discussion. They however have stated that as DSD resides with the SF they will communicate with him directly. Right now we are focussing on DSD and we can deal with the school in the longer term.

My husband spoke to DD at length last week and have been advised by a childrens welfare organisation unofficially that it would go against us if we are the ones to press contact. DSD needs to come to us. This is an incredibly hard situation for us so believe me we have spoken with every agency possible and their concern is for the long term well being of DSD. As is ours. Imagine your DC or DSC being in your life one moment and then vanishing the next. It's as if she is the one who has died.

From what I have read on the internet, it seems that from 16 a child can live where they want. They have gradually more and more say in the years before this. Legal things take ages work through courts, so in effect, they can live where they want from quite a young age, as by the end of the process, they will be 16 anyway. They decide and you just have to work round it, if you can.

Tiger it must be such a blow for her father, but things may change and I hope they will. Things are so absolute when you are young, but a week is a long time.

Whomever told you that your DH would be arrested for a fictitious crime should be barred from ever advising parents again. It's a wicked thing to say.

I am confident that the authorities in the uk can and would act to prevent a grieving teen from living with an unrelated, violent man, no matter what the child's wishes are. Hence my incredulity that your situation has been authorised and permitted to continue.

And as knowing what it feels like to lose a stepchild overnight - yes, I lost SChildren in exactly those circumstances, for whom I have grieved. I am a former stepmum, not a current one.

Her wishes and feelings were taken in to account due to her age because she chose to live with her mum, surely?

Sorry, I have just read the last page of this thread, so forgive me if I have missed some pertinent information.

What I have gleaned is that the child is 15 and has lived with her stepfather since she was 2 years old. He will therefore be an important part of her family regardless of blood ties; Article 8 of the ECHR (respect for family life) looks at family as social and emotional ties, not biology.

I have read suggestions that the step father is abusive to her but I don't know whether that is a result of police/social work or other investigations. If there is no concern from any agency or the school about abuse, then this issue isn't going to go anywhere.

But the key point for me is that she is 15. Courts won't make Child Arrangements Orders for children over 16 unless the circumstances are exceptional, so they will be wary of making orders about a 15 year old who I assume is Gillick competent and has capacity to instruct her own solicitor.

I would be very very wary of any advise that your husband could simply go and remove her from her home or school. He may well find himself on the receiving end of criminal charges if he did that. And it could be very distressing for everyone. How is he to 'remove' a teenager who resists removal? How physical is this going to get?

It is a hugely distressing situation but you have to tread carefully otherwise you risk alienating the 15 year old beyond repair.

The Court of Appeal handed down judgement in a case yesterday which sets out horribly the impact of parental battles on children.
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2015/389.html

I am not saying you do nothing, but any 'all guns blazing' approach if you are NOT supported by police/children's services/School is likely to back fire massively.

Is there any chance of family mediation? Sorry if this has been mentioned before. If that could work it would be a much better route than the courts. But I accept if the step father is very unreasonable, you may have no other option. Just don't get your hopes up about what a court can achieve in this kind of tragic situation.

spero. What offence could a father with PR, with whom the DC had lived 50% on the time (and where there were no prohibiting court orders) be arrested for, if he collected his DD from school one day?

I accept that if he were to manhandle her, he may well face assault charges, but if the DC in question complied with her fathers demands to return to the family home, could he really face arrest if the stepfather made a complaint?

Frankly, that is terrifying for every parent to contemplate. It implies that if our teens are befriended by another adult, the influence that adult has over our DCs is enforceable by law!

I am at a loss to understand how a parent with PR does not have recourse in criminal law to object to the other parent removing the child, and yet a stepparent does.

My thought was assault. Presuambly he would have to 'man handle' her if she refused to go.

You can't just 'collect' a 15 year old in the way you would a 5 year old or even a 10 year old. She will have her own views and wishes - however misguided or however under the influence she is of another.

I think it is a very dangerous strategy and could back fire seriously. I certainly wouldn't advise it.

Peruvian - I think the problem here is that you are giving too much weight to the 'rights' of adults with PR and that is not how the courts will see it.

the wishes and feelings of a 15 year old will generally be determinative in any contact/residence dispute, even if they are crazy wishes and feelings, for the simple reason that 15 year olds have the physical strength and the mental capacity to leave a situation they don't like, unless physically restrained/locked up. And no court would want to put a child through that kind of situation, unless that child was in serious danger which is why you can get secure accommodation orders.

the rare cases where the courts have enforced removal of older teenagers - with police and much kicking and screaming - have never, to my knowledge worked out well for anyone. The court transferred residence of a 15 year old boy a while back; he went on hunger strike and was returned to his mother, even though her behaviour and manipulation of him was subject to serious criticism.

spero I can fully understand and personally relate to what you are saying when the DC is opting to live with a parent against the wishes of another.

But my understanding is that a stepparent has no legal responsibity towards a DC, and therefore, without court/children's services intervention, a DC cannot merely opt to live with an unrelated adult? The OP hasn't said the stepparent has PR.

Can a Gillick competent teen really decide with which adult they are going to live, with no consideration or assessment of their suitability, and parents can do nothing about it, and in fact face criminal proceeding if they insist?

If that is the case, then it has significant implications for those stepparents on this board whose stepchildren do not wish to live with the resident parent. All the teen need do is state they wish to live with their stepparent, surely?

I refer you back to what I said about Article 8. Any adult with whom a child has lived from the age of 2 to the age of 15 is likely to be considered by that child as 'family'. The ECHR looks at emotional/social constructs of family life, it isn't bothered so much by biology.

Thus you cannnot assert your strict 'legal rights' in a family court. The welfare of the child is the paramount consideration so that gives the family court power to override the PR of a parent, if it thinks another decision is better for the child.

*Can a Gillick competent teen really decide with which adult they are going to live, with no consideration or assessment of their suitability, and parents can do nothing about it, and in fact face criminal proceeding if they insist?

If that is the case, then it has significant implications for those stepparents on this board whose stepchildren do not wish to live with the resident parent. All the teen need do is state they wish to live with their stepparent, surely?*

Yes, pretty much. This is the problem that bedevilled the Rotherham and other child abuse scandals. If a 15 year old tells you she is going out with her 'boyfriend' even if you can see that this 'boyfriend' is a man in his 40s, what can you realistically do to stop her? Parents who have attempted to restrain children in these circumstances have been convicted of criminal assault.

Thanks spero - The implications are incredible.

It certainly makes a mockery of all the "apparent" legislation around benefits and child maintenance. The stepfather in this case would be eligible for Child Benenfit/tax credits despite not having any legal responsibility for the DC, and the OPs DP is presumably liable for paying child support to his DDs stepfather, yet there is no recourse for the stepfather to be held accountable for the care (or otherwise) he provides?

Where would liability lie for issues such as attendance at school? And Who would be considered the DCs next of kin in the event of an accident or serious illness - it seems likely given the OPs posts that the father wouldn't be informed.

I had always assumed that an adult other than a parent would have to be given some form of legal authorisation to become responsible for a child in favour of their own parents - how wrong I was!

OP I apologise . It seems that you have become the victim of a system that is set up to fail DCs.

I don't think your last sentence is either true or fair.

I am having this argument on another thread about contact between parents.

the biggest problem with the family court system is the dysfunction and misery that the adult participants bring to it. the court does its best, which is not great I accept, but absent enormous State investment in family therapy and mediation programmes, I am not sure what else it can do. The law is pretty clear. The child's best interests are paramount. It may not be in a child's best interests to compell them to live somewhere they don't want to live, no matter how impeccable the legal pedigree of the person who wants them.

You cannot control a 15 year old in the same way that you can control a 5 year old for pretty obvious reasons, and the law recognises this as parents' ability to exert control gets weaker as the years go by the child's own wishes become determinative in all but the most serious of situations.

It may not be in a child's best interests to compell them to live somewhere they don't want to live, no matter how impeccable the legal pedigree of the person who wants them.

Who decides what's best for the DC, though? I may be wrong, but I have interpreted your posts to mean that in situations such as the OPs, it is not the parent but the DC who decides what is in the DCs best interests.

That is what astounds me - I always thought that in the event of disagreement, the courts decided what was in the DCs best interests, but that until a court ruling, I thought the parent had a duty to act in a way they believed was best for the DC.

It is disquieting to read your advice that the OP should accept the DCs decision, prior to any court proceedings taking place.

Spero- everything we have established so far supports your posts.

We previously offerred mediation to her mother and she declined hoping we wouldn't push the contact order which is why we had to go to court last year and then lied to the courts saying she had wanted mediation.
We once again offerred mediation earlier this year on the basis that the mother and SF were ignoring DSD wishes and isolating her when she was with them.

She thinks by living with us she will 'disrespect' her mother and that by staying with the SF that will be close to her mother. Trying to rationalise with her at this point doesn't seem hopeful. I am yet to have any contact with her whatsoever since and her father has not had any communication since turning up to the school last week. Neither has any of our family.

Who decides what's best for the DC, though? I may be wrong, but I have interpreted your posts to mean that in situations such as the OPs, it is not the parent but the DC who decides what is in the DCs best interests.

If adults cannot agree what is the best way forward, or adults want to impose a situation on a child which the child rejects (medical treatment for e.g.) then it is the court that decides, with the assistance of reports from experts such as a guardian, social worker or psychologist.

But you can't get away from the reality that adults may tell an adolescent that 'this is what you must do' and adolescents will reply 'make me'. And of course, you usually can't. Unless you want to lock them up.

The only real solution is to try not to create or contribute to a situation where adults are fighting and a child feels caught in the middle.

Op - I am truly sorry that you are all in this situation. It sounds horrendous. But this is a child who has lost her mother. I don't think rationalising with her at this point will be a productive exercise and may simply drive a bigger wedge between you all.

If it were me - and I accept it isn't, and I am not caught up in the horrible emotion of it all - I would back right off. Maybe write and say that you love her and you are here for her when she is ready. But I really doubt this is an issue that can be forced, even with the help of the law, in fact probably definitely not with the help of the law.

Spero- We have done that and my DH reinforced that last week.

I've bought a relly nice notebook/diary for her when we do have contact to give to her so when she doesn't want to talk to anyone she can write down what she is feeling/thinking. She might think it's lame but hopefully she'll realise that we've been thinking of her.

The SF has initiated the legal proceedings not us as although we recognised there was going to be difficulties we didn't want to put DSD through a custody battle whilst grieving for her mother.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread which I know is very remiss of me in a situation like this, so I have probably missed some crucial points.

Its such a shame his reaction is to make an application to the court. The court is going to be very reluctant to make orders about a 15 year old. I cannot see what will be achieved by this other than by ramping up the levels of bitterness to extremely damaging levels.

Knowing what the mother and SF have been like with my DH it will be about the money.

If adults cannot agree what is the best way forward, or adults want to impose a situation on a child which the child rejects (medical treatment for e.g.) then it is the court that decides, with the assistance of reports from experts such as a guardian, social worker or psychologist.

What about before the court makes a decision, though? In this case, the various agencies charged with protecting children are disregarding the views of the DCs parent, which is that the DC is at risk remaining with the stepparent. Those agencies (and the stepfather) are actively facilitating the DCs choice, against the wishes of her parent - before a court has made a judgement.

Is everyone involved crossing their fingers and hoping that the OPs DP is wrong? Because the OP has made it clear that no one has risk assessed the situation professionally and the sudden loss of contact with the DD is surely an indication that something is wrong. There has been allegations of violence, and an acrimonious court case - but that's ok, we'll leave her there even though she's suddenly disappeared from one of the families she was a member of, because apparently that's what she says she wants?

We really haven't learnt much from previous tragedies as a nation, have we? I can only imagine the criticism that that OPs DP would come under if, worse case scenario, something does happen to his DD at the hands of her stepdad - I'm sure he'd be blamed publicly for allowing her to remain there despite his fears.

It is staggering to me that a parent who is worried about their child is being advised and actively prevented from contacting her.

I would be opposing it in a non confrontational way - by asking for time for the dsd to grieve, have bereavement counselling, mediation etc before going to court, until it is no longer an issue. I can't see the courts being in a hurry to grant rights to the sf as she is an older teen, and they would want a lot of groundwork and reports too. Hopefully, the legal action will fizzle out eventually, as it will have nowhere to go. She has someone to sign things like passport forms, even if she does not want him at the moment - he is still there ready and willing and able to do it.

That's another thing. They have a holiday booked in July and the SF has her passport. Legally speaking right now he has no authority to take her out of the country.