Should DH force DSS into the car for contact?

[CloudiaPickle]

DH and DSS (6) are very close - he is 100% happy and content and always asks to stay longer. However, his mum is completely against contact and has a huge history of contact blocking. Her latest thing is to prepare DSS for contact by telling him all the things he could be doing if he stays home (I.e. Seeing his friends, buying new computer games, going to theme parks etc) and that DH won't do those things because he doesn't love him like she does...!

Cue a crying confused little boy who refuses to talk to or go with DH the past few times he's arrived to collect him. Contact is court ordered but DSS mum disregards the court order completely. They're awaiting a CAFCASS report because she's said contact is emotionally damaging DSS and are back in court in November. In the meantime, she's said she's been advised not to force DSS to go with DH if he doesn't want to. She's said if DH attempts to take DSS then she will film his distress as evidence for court.

DH is concerned that the longer he doesn't see DSS, the more she can alienate him and is sure DSS would be fine once away from mum but obviously mishandling him into the car while being filmed is far from ideal. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Any advice would be much appreciated.

*manhandling

I havent any experience but in your shoes i would turn up for contact and if dss wont get in the car then just leave. Dont make a fuss as this will upset dss even further.

Go back to court and sort it out there.

This will be the third time in court, though. She has no respect for the order and won't abide by it.

I think in this situation I would turn up with a nice present for DS and tell him you are just planning to take him on a fun day out then he can come home if he likes, but he doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to.

I would try bribery first.

Grandparents visiting? Treats and toys? But mostly really exciting experiences like day trips, theme parks, adventure playgrounds, football game if hes into that, ice skating etc...

Turn up with wrapped present that he can have in the car, and if he resists, say he doesn't have to come and open the present together there and then - and make it a teaser for next weekends trip eg toy lion/ hippo/ whatever and a promise of trip to the zoo next week.

My feeling is that her manipulation will lose its grip if he's had one or two really lovely bonding experiences with dad and son. I know you shouldn't have to resort to bribery, or other negative patenting behaviours, but you need to stem the tide of negativity somehow.

Also can you write down her negative behaviours when they happen to add weight to evidence?

I agree try bribery amd then leave. forcing the chikd into the car plays into her hands

And lots of video evidence of him absolutely fine doing normal things very shortly after.

And quite frankly I would happily tell him that mummy is being mean to do that and that daddy loves him no matter what etc

Is ur dss mother well off? Cos these are expensive trips she's promising and if ur dh does leave and he doesn't get them it will soon stop. If she does have to pay out the money will soon stop.

Document everything.

Getting him to write a diary when he is with you is good long term evidence. Eg today we went to the park, I had fun with x. Playing with dad was cool.

Just from the other side (not that I try and block contact), my ds2 went through a VERY long phase of not wanting to go with his dad. I was usually the one persuading him to go while ExH just waited, ds2 would be hiding in the cupboard, saying he didn't want to go, upset, etc.
I was happy that ds2 was fine once he left and had complete confidence that ExH was perfectly capable with him, but ds2 didn't like leaving me/home - and we put measures in place to counter this such as pick-ups directly from school rather than home etc. But we couldn't avoid all home pick-ups.
One day I was so emotionally exhausted by this (basically forcing an unwilling upset child to leave) that I said I wasn't making him go, ExH got a bit arsy and asked was I stopping him taking ds2, to which I was very clear that I wasn't stopping him taking him, I just wasn't prepared to make him go myself.
ExH picked him up and carried him out (he was probably around 6yo), put him down on the path and ds2 turned to ExH, put his hand in his and they walked off to the car chatting happily.

A couple of years down the line ds2 was talking about how a friend never wants to go with his dad, and how he would never be like that ( face from me as I remembered the YEARS of him not wanting to go). I mentioned to him about how he used to hide in the cupboard and he just didn't believe me!

I know it is a different situation, as my ds2 didn't have one parent actively discouraging contact, but ds2 loves his dad, and now happily goes with him.

I'd be tempted to physically remove him rather than bribe, but you have to weigh it up against the actions of his mum. Hard.

I'm surprised how many have suggested bribery. Where does that end? Kids see through that and in a few years you'll have an older child on your hands who wants a pay per view scenario.. Even if it works, a mum like this will start telling the child to get what he can from that silly father then come home to his "real" parent.

I love the idea of getting him to write a diary when he's with you to evidence his happiness.

I think stuff liked making him write a diary etc is manipulative and you should avoid playing silly tricks like his ex. I would continue to turn up to collect. I would make visits as interesting as possible. Document everything with ex by email and don't engage in the stupidity. I would imagine the court have seen it all before.

Some of this is likely to be natural "transition anxiety" (there's a thread in LP about a DD of the same age behaving similarly) but there is also an element of implacable hostility to contact which he is undoubtedly picking up on.

I would never bribe. That is a slippery slope and so contrary to the role of a parent that it defeats the purpose of contact IMO.
Instead, I'd suggest your DP establishes a shared experience that they can both do, even when they are apart.

For instance, if your DSS is into the "where's Wally" type spot-the-difference, then your DP could buy two sets of pictures and send DSS a where's-Wally challenge through the post between contact. Then, when he picks his DSS up, they go for a milkshake and compare how many "differences" they each found in that weeks picture. Alternatively, if your DSS is into collecting stickers in books (football teams, Disney characters, wildlife) then they buy two books and his Dad can send him a pack of stickers each week (and buy one for himself). As soon as he picks his DS up, they compare sticker books and play swapsies! It can be adapted as he gets older; and could even start to include schoolwork/themes - your DP could talk to his DS class teacher for ideas.

The idea is to break the link in DSS head between dad picking him up, and "going to dads" and replace it with "showing dad my stickers". It has to be the first thing they do together before they go home - so, no popping into B&Q before the milkshake! Transition anxiety can be alleviated sometimes just by having regular reminders of the NRP during the period they are apart - don't underestimate the value of an old fashioned letter!

It's not foolproof - mum might intercept DSS post, for instance. We got round that by DH sending postcards - so DSS mum could read them herself and didn't feel so threatened by them, but it depends on the motivation behind the hostility as to whether that works, or not.

Goodness me! What IS it with some women willingly destroying their children to screw over their exs?!

I really don't know what to suggest. Document everything for court is the only thing I can think of.

Yes we've had 6 years of this. Any time we have to get her from home mum will sabotage, she is happy to make our child completely hysterical if it suits her purposes. The only way we have found that consistently stops it is picking SD up from school. She's had hours away from mum then and can't see her absurd influence and hysteria and so she couldn't be more overjoyed to come.

We had recently a whole day of this absurd hysterics drummed up by mum, mum refused contact in the end that day. Finally OH managed to get to his child, within 3 mins of reminding her we were going to go to a treat, SD is in the car, chatting joyfully, couldn't shut her up. Ironically all the messing meant she missed the treat anyway, but didn't care, she was happy the whole visit.

We have a similar problem where mum is trying to demand back to court because of the 'distress' based on this one incident. OH pointed out that she never wants to come back either but that doesn't mean we keep her! And she has been upset going back the other day before!

I would therefore back up the poster who wisely says that even carrying the child, the upset was gone in minutes. Their memories are short at this age and they really don't know their minds sufficiently beyond immediate reward such as doing a fun activity they like, so I would just use the fun activity route. it doesn't have to be something like going out it can be as simple as the trip before promising hey we will make cupcakes next time, don't forget! Then remind them at the door, awwww but we are making cupcakes look at the blue icing I got, come and help me!

It's such total crap because their mum's cant' possibly conceive of the importance of just even sitting in a room with dad having a cuddle for an hour is actually more emotionally rewarding to a kid then a party, honestly I've seen it. I agree once you get the child in the car stop down the road and take a happy selfie, write a diary, video some whacky thing, anything to show the upset is completely temporary. We have had our child not wanting to come and crying a little, then 24 hours later in complete FLOODS of tears that they didn't want to leave one of our friends homes, honestly what 6 year old doesn't do things like that! It's INSANE to use it as an excuse not to do something vital in their life like have contact with their dad. If you set the life of a 6 year od based on their tears you would have them living in a friends cupboard eating nothing but jellybeans wearing a batman suit! A little sense of proportion please mums!!!!!! Of course for an obsessively possessive mum they LEAP on that just because its the one thing they want to hear. Very damaging.

If at all possible get a pickup from a place that's not mums, like direct from school. I assure you it'll be problem solved. Good luck.

I like your idea Wakey, but there's no way that DSS mum would let the post get to him or worse - he's not really reading yet so she could read untrue things to him which would make the situation worse.

I disagree with bribery. His mum is already doing that - DSS isn't a possession to be won. An alternative collection other than from mum would be great but she works at his school so is unavoidable.

An alternative collection other than from mum would be great but she works at his school so is unavoidable.

That could work in your favour. Would DSS Mum really create the same kind of scene on school premises? If she did (believing, perhaps, that witnesses would support her decision to withhold contact) your DH would have the perfect opportunity to ask the school to help support DSS. They won't get involved in disputes between parents, but they will support their pupils.

DH appealed to his DS school for help when there were similar issues with DSS. DH asked the school for help with strategies to support DSS to deal with his mum crying at every handover. DH didn't criticise DSS mum for crying, just explained that it was upsetting for DSS and could the school give any ideas on how he (DH) could help DSS. Apparently, the Head had stern words with DSS's mum (after confirming with DSS that it was true) and told her that she was being unfair on DSS. She was a volunteer in the school so, like your DSS mum, the school could use that as leverage to highlight that she "should know better".

If you do end up back in court, it might be worth your DH asking for school handovers to be included in the order.

You have my sympathies. We've tried fun activists, we've tried bribing, we've tried just bundling DSC in the car. It's hideous. DSCs mum will be crying, begging, threatening to call the police that DH is abducting the child (except it's court ordered contact and he always takes the order with him..!), filming DSC crying instead of either soothing them or leaving.

Always, always they are settled within minutes if not seconds of her leaving but every week it's the same.

Handovers moved to a contact centre for a while. That made it easier for them to leave the contact centre and come to DH but the co-ordinator said it was a nightmare getting DSC to leave her.

We've had to report her to social services for emotional abuse this week - the third time we've reported and they've actually listened this time - so no doubt it will be even worse this weekend!

My DH has never left contact without the children. He tries his best to get them to calmly go with him but then he will just wait. He won't leave, not even when she locked DSC in the house. He just sat and waited in his car. Eventually she would bring DSC out.

It's bloody horrible though. Document EVERYTHING. Everything that is unhelpful, everything she says or does. You might need it further down the line.

With the school handover, surely she can just be in a different classroom at home time?

Have you tried calling CAFCASS and asking their advice? You have to frame it in a very child focused way - don't blame the mother, focus on the impact on the child. CAFCASS don't have the best reputation but our CAFCASS officer has been amazing - really supportive. Even when she couldn't do anything, DH found it helpful to hear from her that he was doing everything he can. Last time he called her she even started talking about reversal of residence in our case!

Are you me...we've had years of this as well...

One thing we considered was to surprise both DC and EX with granny turning up at the door instead of DH...in our case we know EX would have had to instantly go into Mother of the Year mode and pretend to be pleased to see her (with anyone except us she wasn't going to show herself up, she likes to be Snow White) and the theory was DC would be so excited to see gran that they would just go along with it...

The idea was to break the pattern without putting pressure on DC - really don't get into bundling them into the car however tempting it is (and I totally understand that it is) as they may then be genuinely frightened, and that won't do anyone any good.

If CAFCASS are involved, even as a result of the EX's manipulation, then your DH should ask to get involved in discussions, so use this as an opportunity rather than the threat I know it feels like.

What is the matter with these women...and why do the courts continue to fail fathers...

Have only dealt with this in a situation where the anxieties were purely the child's - ie both me and my ex were supportive of contact, but my DS had a phase of not wanting to go to his dad's. We did find that minor bribary helped - not promises of days out at theme parks or anything, but simply a promise to buy him an ice cream on the way to his dad's. It's not a permanent thing you want to get into, but can just help to break a cycle of anxiety.

The other thing we found helped was for me to drop the kids at my ex's. Once they were at his house, they were distracted with things there and found saying goodbye to me much easier than when he took them from my home. Though appricate this might be harder for you to arrange if the ex is not on side.

Agree that getting someone else to collect may help - arrange a play date after school, which your DP collects from? Or even just arrange to walk home from school with a friend and their parent (maybe park your car at the friend's house and call in together for a cup of tea?)

You say that his mum works at his school - but unless she's actually his class teacher there's no reason for her to be there when your DP collects him. You could offer to let DSS call her from yours as soon as he gets there if she's just anxious about leaving him, but that may not work if she's dead set on actually preventing contact by making him anxious about it.

This must be so tough. 95% of the time DSS can't wait to see his dad and get off, his mum often jokes that she doesn't get so much as a backward glance, let alone a goodbye kiss.

But there have been a minority of times when he has got upset and not wanted to go. Its nothing to do with his mum, its more if he has been playing a game with his sisters there and doesn't want to leave them, or if he perceives he's going to be mixing out on something special at mum's by going to dad's.

DP and his ex's strategy has always been calmness, soothing and patience. Its horrible when DSS is actually crying though. DP has never left without contact, because he knows DSS will be fine 10 minutes after actually leaving. And luckily he has his ex's cooperation.

So I can only imagine how awful it would be if the ex was actually whipping up and aggravating the child's upset rather than trying to soothe it. I suppose they feel justified because they don't have the benefit of seeing the DSC perfectly fine 10m after the wrench if the transfer has ocurred .

I personally think patience, soothing and perhaps an element of briskness but not actual manhandling is the best way to go. And if you can get pick up from school I don't doubt the situation would be much easier.

I think you should look upon any tempting and bribery as temporary techniques in order to break the mothers hold. I really think you're making life harder than it needs to be by being so adverse to it.

You're not going to be buying him or turning into Disney dad style parenting. You need to break the feedback loop the mother has created, as it's making the child more & more anxious and scared, and there's nothing to give him a different viewpoint as he's not getting to be with his dad to remember how much he's loved and cared for.

Also very good idea to use video footage against the mother, filming him happy in the car just down the road (time stamped, or emailed to show time & date), or crying when he doesn't want to leave his dad...

I had this with DS as well not wanting to go to his dads. No clue why, it came out of nowhere. I ended up asking school for help and trying everything to make him go nicely but he basically broke his heart every time his dad picked him up.

I spent the whole time he was gone crying because I'd forced my child out of the door. But apparently he was fine when there.

One day it just stopped.

I had this with DS as well not wanting to go to his dads. No clue why, it came out of nowhere. I ended up asking school for help and trying everything to make him go nicely but he basically broke his heart every time his dad picked him up.

I spent the whole time he was gone crying because I'd forced my child out of the door. But apparently he was fine when there.

One day it just stopped.

can he park away and walk with dc to the car. time to calm down...
what a shit situation for all involved.

Do not ever manhandle a child into your car! Do you have any idea the impact it can have on the child!! I do

Let it role through to court. Ime the court will most likely blame mum (regardless) and threaten to switch residency.

Ultimately I ended the i dont want to go by explaining to dd that if she didn't the court would send her to live with her dad. She goes but is counting down the days till she's old enough to not, hates her dad, court cafcass and anyone who didn't take her seriously.

Imo the best thing to do is show him you will be there regardless of whether he visits you or not. Know about, any school/club events, turn up quietly, let him see you there without expecting anything in return.t same for handovers. Show him you will be a parent to him whether he is ready to accept it or not. you're just waiting for him. you'll win dss round ina far more real way than court or physicality imposing your will