Should DH force DSS into the car for contact?

[CloudiaPickle]

DH and DSS (6) are very close - he is 100% happy and content and always asks to stay longer. However, his mum is completely against contact and has a huge history of contact blocking. Her latest thing is to prepare DSS for contact by telling him all the things he could be doing if he stays home (I.e. Seeing his friends, buying new computer games, going to theme parks etc) and that DH won't do those things because he doesn't love him like she does...!

Cue a crying confused little boy who refuses to talk to or go with DH the past few times he's arrived to collect him. Contact is court ordered but DSS mum disregards the court order completely. They're awaiting a CAFCASS report because she's said contact is emotionally damaging DSS and are back in court in November. In the meantime, she's said she's been advised not to force DSS to go with DH if he doesn't want to. She's said if DH attempts to take DSS then she will film his distress as evidence for court.

DH is concerned that the longer he doesn't see DSS, the more she can alienate him and is sure DSS would be fine once away from mum but obviously mishandling him into the car while being filmed is far from ideal. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Ultimately I ended the i dont want to go by explaining to dd that if she didn't the court would send her to live with her dad

So you threaten her with losing her home and scare her into going?
I'm not sure that's any better than physical restraint, tbh.

I'm sorry you've had as negative experience as we have in court but I can assure you that from where I'm standing, courts do not blame mum, regardless. It entirely depends on the court (and the clerk) - they do get it catastrophically wrong more frequently than is acceptable, though.

Hello, I am watching the advice with interest as we have similar issues with DSS aged 9. The hardest thing is seeing that he is struggling with where his loyalties lie. He and his Dad are very close so are him and his Mum and he just doesn't want to upset either. Where some of you mentioning bribery, is it a worry that it could turn the child into a bit of a brat expecting a gift or an amazing day everytime? I don't mean that rudely, I have no idea what's best, just don't know what to do really and worry that they will both miss out on their father son relationship. Sorry for hijacking btw :-)

We never forced any of dh's children to come to our house, we just promised them that dh would turn up every weekend, if they didn't want to come then that was there choice, quite often one would choose not to come but they would often come the following week.

Wasn't a threat, it was a fact. I had been advised as such by my solicitor. If she didn't get out of my car into his, it would have happened. He'd already tried more or less manhandling, ("he was just a little distresed they wouldn't come") bribery cajoling threats. Yes courts do make mistakes, but ime they make less mistakes than cafcass and ss. I wouldn't want anyone to go through what my kids have.

That's why I say softly softly catchy monkey. You can blame mum separation anxiety whatever. But like marne says you show your their for your kids regardless, without anything in return, you're being a fantastic parent. And in the end all kids want a fantastic parent.

coffee I'm not sure this is the place - but it sounds like you were incredibly badly advised by your solicitor.

Refusal by a DC to engage in contact would never be the sole reason for a court to switch residency!

It sounds like there is a lot more to your case (CAFCASS and SS involvement) but I think it's important that other posters don't read this thread and think they will lose, or gain, residency of their DCs soley based on whether the DC says they want to see their NRP or not!

As has already been highlighted, transition anxiety is incredibly common, yet change of residency is not the automatic solution of the court!

You are right my case was incredibly rare, but really only in so much as how bad it was for kids, how many services let them down, and what an incredible shit their dad is. I really wasn't badly advised, just a very bad situation that got progressively ridiculously worse.

But yes it can and does happen, if it is deemed mum is causing emotional abuse by blocking a positive relationship with dad hence stopping the kids wanting to go; and the court feel dad can do a better job promoting a positive relationship with mum. Residency can be switched. It takes time (our case trundled on for 3 years,it only started getting better when ex disobeyed conditions on a few court orders). There were a few cases of switched residency when my case was going through. There is more case law is coming through since.

Having been through the whole process, I have the most respect for those parents who can show they will always be there and let their kids come to them voluntarily.

That applies to whether the children are suffering from transitional anxiety or don't want to go for more sinister reason

Having been through the whole process, I have the most respect for those parents who can show they will always be there and let their kids come to them voluntarily

I'm not sure that's the best way of looking at things in most cases. I think it's way too much power to say to a child they can decide at the time with their poor dad during outside in the car whether they want to go out not. He may have got food in for them, tickets for a day out, or their mum may have plans for things to do without them. A contact schedule may be set up in a child's best interest, but that's their long term interest, and is a very different thing from teaching them that the world revolves around them and their whims. Children are very often living in the moment. The times mine haven't wanted to go to their dad's (or occasionally to come back to mine) have always been when they've had to be dragged away from some game or activity.

If they say they're unhappy about going I've always told them I'll discuss it with their dad and maybe alter the routine in the future but they've never been allowed to mess their parents around by deciding on the day whether to go or not. I can't believe that's ever a good.

Tbh I think it's missing the point. The op is discussing more serious reluctance than I'm enjoying this game I don't want to leave it.

He may have got food in for them, tickets for a day out, or their mum may have plans for things to do without them

That's the nrp's need not to be messed around "on a whim".

At the point of handover, the child's need is to feel more confident separating from RP, or to know you'll be there regardless of how stupid they act, if it is a case of alienation to know whether the rp is really right.

If at the point of handover the nrp's concern is not to be messed around on a whim, it really shows a disconnect with how the child is feeling and the child's needs.

To parent is to try as best as you can to meet your child's needs which often involves a degree of self sacrifice.

Teaching that life doesn't resolve around dc's whims is best taught on less difficult circumstances.

So if you're dropping off a nervous child at a new school and they don't want to stay, it would be showing a disconnect with how the child's feeling of you tell them they have to stay?

To parent is to try as best as you can to meet your child's needs which often involves a degree of self sacrifice.

How much self sacrifice, though? The emotional impact of doing what you suggest - turning up for contact week after week, standing on the doorstep only to be turned away again - is hugely damaging.

The practical implications of continuing the way you describe are significant, to. Should the NRP decline offers of work during "scheduled" contact time, just in case the DC decides, after months or years, to come? What about other DCs? Do their activities and lives with their a Dad have to revolve around a contact schedule for a step/half sibling who they may have never seen or remember?
How long should a rejected NRP keep their DCs room untouched in the NR home? At what cost? And who else is expected to facilitate that?

When is it acceptable to say "enough - I'm here if you need me, you know where I am". I understand what you're saying about the DC needing the reassurance that their parent is always there for them, but the emotional price the parent pays may rob the DC of the parent they remember anyway.

But that's the point isn't?

Your right. You may make the judgement call that you won't keep that time clear anymore, that you won't keep that space in your room. ... that may be the right decision for the NRP and any dp or further children that come along.

But actually you've just justified any concern the children has in coming. That love is conditional, it is limited. Can't really blame them if they don't want to make the space in their life for you.

School is very different from switching homes. We have as a society vastly underestimate how difficult switching homes can be for children. Although it is an interesting comparison

But actually you've just justified any concern the children has in coming. That love is conditional, it is limited.

That's a fairly self-flagellating point of view.

We have as a society vastly underestimate how difficult switching homes can be for children.

I live in an area where "second homes" are common - I don't see any of the difficulties or anxieties about "switching homes" amongst the children of families who own them. Why is it different for those children? How come they settle perfectly well during long weekends, or the summer break, in one of their family homes? If anything, the parental stability is less - often, both parents are absent, leaving the DCs with extended family or live in childcare. And yet, there's no "transition anxiety". It's not "switching of homes" that creates the anxiety.

My DSS lives between two homes - his mums and his grandmas. He doesn't refuse to go to grandmas; he doesn't find that transition "difficult". And yet, when he is expected to do the same between his mum and his dads home, it's somehow unreasonable and the impact is underestimated?

Wakey that's the difference between houses and households though, isn't it? The other poster was clearly talking about the difference between two different home environments, not their physical settings, with two very different sets of expectations and demands in a lot of different senses.

I do think the adults (both sets) after splits tend to forget the huge costs that constant shifting places on the children. And as someone who was also cared for in a childminder and at a GP, yep, those changes were also stressful. Not that the adults knew, or would say as much if asked today, I would imagine. To them, we had care arranged and that was all fine. I remember it as being a real source of stress and anxiety - my school day didn't end until I was collected for home, and my holidays did not include weeks at my GM.

I'm not saying there is a simple solution, or that it's better for a child to lose a parent than to cope with changes. I'm also not denying that some RP wind the child(ren) up like tops. I'm just saying that it can be horribly hard on kids even when the adults behave impeccably, because it's change and disruption and two competing family styles and lives. And that's just hard on kids, and inevitably so. That is compounded hugely when the two households are run by adults who dislike and mistrust one another. And that is sadly an inevitability in a lot of divorces, for the very obvious reason.

Over the years I think my children have put up a lot more protest about going to school then they have about going to their dad's.

My DSC too have had 2 homes for the last 5 years and I would say the complexities it presents are some way down their list of live's difficulties. It can be hard for children to get used to change, especially if new people move in or out of their houses but I really don't think it's such a huge trauma that they need to be allowed to decide at the last minute each week whether they can cope with it.

You love your child unconditionally but a relationship needs building. So if a child keeps deciding not to go this week, in the end they lose their relationship - which is what the OP is rightly concerned about. Much like if they were to keep not going to school it would damage their future options. So as a parent I think it's your job to support an anxious child but also to make it clear that contact, like school, childminders, or staying at gran's overnight whilst parents are away for work are things that just happen in life.

I do have some sympathy with the ex who finds it difficult to coax her child to go. It's hard to do it without sounding like you don't want them with you sometimes. And doubly hard if you know you'll miss them.

I think it's your job to support an anxious child but also to make it clear that contact, like school, childminders, or staying at gran's overnight whilst parents are away for work are things that just happen in life.

There are a lot of DCs, who, like my DSC, know that "going to grandmas while mum works" is a non-negotiable, but "visiting Dad" is an optional leisure activity.
Reinforcing that devalues the parent-child relationship.

I can't imagine a school, childminder or nursery setting suggesting that the solution to a child who is struggling to settle/transition would be to manhandle them into the classroom.

Also not all children do settle in the environments mentioned.

Normally the solution is for mum to stay a little while with the child while they settle, unless all parties get on really well I can see that going down all round like a sack of bricks!

And you are talking to the mum who did take time out of my career when ds didn't settle in nursery. And Yes it did mean a hit in lifestyle and my career prospects, especially as it ended up rather a prolonged break.

I'm in the lucky position of having two homes growing up, it's a very different sensation. I transitioned with mum ,dad, and even the cat. More importantly I'm pretty sure that had I been upset by regularly switching homes my parents would have just stopped and settled in one. Your example is self selecting.

The examples you give are actually all optional if the child becomes to distressed. You can homeschool if your child is genuinely too anxious for school, you sometimes have no choice but to find different child care arrangements. We recognise the need to do something in all those circumstances if a child is distressed, the child has to suck it up when it's transitioning between the RP and NRP

Also A relationship takes two to be lost. Whether I saw my child or not there is no way in hell I would not for example: know and be known by my child's teacher, go to parents evening get medical reports for them, go to school events. And yes i would keep turning up at the appointed time for acces. All these show a child you want that relationship. If you're not there when that child plucks up the courage to (defy their RP if rp is the problem) say yes I will go: you can't really blame anyone else if you're already not there.

And yes i would keep turning up at the appointed time for acces. All these show a child you want that relationship

I do understand this, but it's simplistic. A year ago, DH and I felt as strongly as you do.

When DSS said he didn't want to come for contact, My DH continued to turn up, he continued to go to school events and he continued to "show" his DS that he was a constant in his life regardless of DSSs behaviour towards him.

In response, DHs ex applied for a no contact order, attempted to remove DHs PR and alleged that DHs refusal to respect DSSs wishes was abuse of both her and DSS.

My DSC have been taught that their Dads involvement despite their own requests for him to leave them alone is more evidence of his selfishness.

And, DHs determination not to back off resulted in court ordered significantly less contact. He was advised that if he wouldn't listen to his DS, then the court would.

There's a big difference between less time and no contact.

There's a big difference between less time and no contact.

You're right. DHs ex did him and DSS a backhanded favour. If she hadn't applied to court to stop all contact, DH would still be sitting outside the house every other week waiting to see if DSS was willing to come for the weekend and it would have been a year since they last has contact.
As it is, he now picks DSS up for a jolly one afternoon a fortnight.

Of course, it won't last - give it a few more weeks, and DSS will start displaying "transition anxiety" again, despite never having been near our home for a year.
DH won't be sitting outside the house waiting for DSS this time.