please please help really scared

[scarlettandrhett]

DH and I have our own DS and DH has a DD my DSD.

Getting contact was horrendous as ex stopped all contact when she found out about me. I was not the OW. I met DH long after they split up, they were not married.
During the court hearing and out of the blue, she phones me and wants a agreement over contact that we can put before the judge. The suggestion she gave was what DH had wanted. The judge stamped the order.
My gut was telling me that as long as DH played by her rules, all would be ok but if he stepped out of line, all hell would break loose.

Contact was great for the next 3 years. We got DSD more than the court order stated. I became ex "new best friend" and DH and I played her game.

Last month, DH made a geniune mistake over drop off and she went nuts, calling DH every name under the son. DH had had enough and told her so. Yes, contact was stopped, all attempts at communication were stopped.

About 3 hours ago, she came to our door and said she wanted to sort it out. Like a fool, I let her in.
I cannot believe what happened next and even as I write this I feel that I will wake up from a dream.

She proceded to tell us if we take her back to court, she will say DH was abusing DSD. She said that even though it is not true the fallout will affect our own DS. She said she will go to SS with these claims and will say she has real fears for my DS as well. She will go to the police and ensure our DS is removed from our home until an investigation is completed. She said she will tell SS that was why she stopped contact. She is a teacher and knows what do. I thought DH was going to go for her. She was calm, not shouting, screaming, just very calm and smiled through it all.

I cannot believe this is happening, I cannot even find the words to describe it. After she said this, it is all a haze, she walked out our home them. What do we do? What happens. I am really scared now.

I have changed my name

There is additional history in the DSD's relationship with her mother. She has clearly been feeling uncomfortable about and unsupported by her mother's attitude to her contact with her father for some considerable time. This isn't something that is new, although it is a considerable escalation. I would assume that she was bale to communicate this overall picture to the judge in order for this decision to be made.

The fact that a 12 year old can stand in chambers and clearly express her view, backing it up with considerable experience and a record of police involvement, and be allowed to change her place of residence to her father's home doesn't lead me to believe that any NRP could take a child in a similar manner at any time.

Having, unfortunately, had fairly extensive experience of the family court system, I think there are some misunderstandings on this thread.
It is standard practice for court papers to be served by "the applicant". It is required in divorce and other family court cases. In ex parte hearings, the outcome is usually time critical (an immediate action is ordered) and hence, the applicant has limited options. Post or courier - often used for routine hearings - may not be quick enough.
The papers can be delivered by the applicant or by a 'server' employed to carry out the task. The latter is less inflammatory, but obviously incurs a cost. There is no 'gentle' way to do this - an order has been made and the respondent must be notified.

Scarlett you are right. You inadvertently have signed up for a life in which you will always be considered wrong by a greater or lesser proportion of your family, friends, and wider society. That is part and parcel of stepparenting in a high-conflict situation. At best, you'll hear a few mutterings at the school gate. At worst, the people who mean most to you may also criticise and condemn your choices. Yes, it's incredibly unfair.

Like everyone here, the idea of having my child taking away is terrifying, but this is a temporary court order, to be reviewed at a later date.

I still think it cannot be in child's best interest for them to be able to have their momentary anger ratified into a legal ruling in the space of 24 hours.

If there is evidence of abuse - yes, of course an emergency ruling to change residence. That would be in their best interest. But there is not in this case.

If they are just thoroughly angry with a parent, rightly or wrongly for whatever reason, it would seem far better for a legal decision to be made later once the rage has calmed and the facts can be assessed more objectively. That way if they still feel they want to move the decision is a considered and planned and wont be viewed as revenge.

Giving a young person that much power over their familiy's iives cannot not good for the young person Little Emperor Syndrome? . I dread to think what legal rulings my teens may have inflicted on their family over the course of their adolescence if thay had had access to a judge during some of their angrier moments.

I still think it cannot be in child's best interest for them to be able to have their momentary anger ratified into a legal ruling in the space of 24 hours.

Maybe it is and maybe not but it's also not necessarily in their best interests to be forced out of their father's home against their will no matter what the circumstances simply because the court has ordered otherwise at some previous point.

It wasn't a given that they would succeed in their application to change her residence. They had to convince a judge who had a responsibility to consider issues like this. We don't have all the details of their conversation so perhaps we should credit him or her with the common sense and experience to be able to select what is likely to be the best course of action for this particular child and her family. It's a judgement call which is, after all, what we pay judges to make.

Halfdonga - so you think it would have been better for someone - anyone? - to manhandle a 12 year old girl to her mother's house? Instead of allowing her to stay at her father's house for a few days until this goes to court.

No, her mother didn't hit her, but she has emotionally abused her DD. The mother told her that her father didn't want to see her on her birthday and at Christmas, that every year he had better things to do. The mother told her DD that she wasn't wanted at her Dad's, that he was away etc. The mother told her DD that her Dad had tried to get her (the mother) arrested. The mother lied about what happened. The mother threated to tell everyone that her Dad had sexually abused her and that her (half) brother wasn't safe at home... and the mother works at a school, it's not as if she wouldn't know full well how that would have panned out.

So you think it's better she was forced to go back to her Mother's?

Right.

Why?

We don't have all the details of their conversation so perhaps we should credit him or her with the common sense and experience to be able to select what is likely to be the best course of action for this particular child and her family. It's a judgement call which is, after all, what we pay judges to make.

The system is subjective, and had a different judge heard the application, or had the OPs DH represented himself (or been represented by a different solicitor/barrister) then a very different outcome is very possible.

Judges are representative of society, and this thread is clear evidence that on this particular issue, opinion is divided.

The Family Court system is adversarial by nature. The subjective opinions of magistrates and/or judges dictate the course of a child's future. And while generally, very few people have an opinion and there is just a minority who object to it based on their own experience, when a situation such as the one the OP describes arises, public opinion is polarised.
There are families throughout the country who are reeling from decisions made by family court every day; just like the OPs family and her DSD Mum.

Chipping - not manhandled, no. But I actually do think it would have been better for DSD to have been told by her dad to go back to her mother's temporarily as per the standing court order, with the agreement that if she still wanted to change residency next week then her opinions would be taken seriously and a court application made after calm discussion.

If it had been explained to DSD that legally that day she had to return to her mum's for the week (and that if she refused then her dad would be in trouble), she may well have agreed to return without any need for manhandling or force.

She needed reassurance that she was listened to and taken seriously, but that could have been easily achieved by promising to take action if she still wanted at a later point. Just providing her with a mobile phone would have been enough to keep the channels of communication open. She needs to see her dad sticking to the rules as agreed. A world where the rules can be changed that easily is not a safe and secure place for a child.

I agree, her mother has behaved appallingly but DSD now knows most of the truth and so she is unlikely to allow her mum to continue sabotaging contact even if she lives with her mum.

Halfdonga

WHY do you think she should have been made to go to her mothers?

WHY is her father's not good enough/better?

WHY shouldn't her opinion be taken seriously now?

WHY shouldn't her Dad have done what he could, legally, to help her?

WHY should she agree to go back?

She needed reassurance that she was listened to and taken seriously

Yes, she did and she got it. Her Dad & SM did well. Why should they just have said 'Shame you feel that way, here's a phone, let's talk'?

He HAS stuck to the rules, at every single turn.

A world where the rules can be changed that easily is not a safe and secure place for a child

What a lot of TOSH. She has seen that if you go via the correct channels and don't just 'kick off' people will LISTEN to you and act in your best interest. That rules need to be obeyed but if you go through the right channels those rules can be changed, by people in charge of them. She has been told that it's OK to stand up for yourself.

Why should she have to live with her Mum if she doesn't want to? She has a Dad as well and if she wants to live with him then she should. She is a PERSON not a posession.

The system is subjective

Of course it is. That applies to any system which involves human interaction. There are also, inevitably, failures from time to time.

A line has to be drawn somewhere. Some people feel that a 12YO is old enough to take sole responsibility for deciding with which parent she should reside, others feel that this isn't a decision she is old enough to take part in at all and plenty more are firmly on the middle ground.

The system needs to allow for emergency decisions to be made and someone has to make a judgement about how that is justified. This situation seems to be set pretty close to the line for most people.

This isn't an example of a stroppy teenager simply kicking off about parental discipline but it also isn't a child who is very clearly at risk of significant harm if she is returned to her mother. The judge listened to the facts presented to him/her and no doubt took other factors into account like the demeanour of the DSD and her father, their family history, the police involvement, the risk of enabling an unethical move by a NRP, the tendency of teenagers towards melodrama and rigid thinking, etc and made what was, in their opinion, the best decision they could in the circumstances.

The decision has only allowed the child to spend more time with her father than she would have done had the previous order still applied. She will still be in the care of her parents at all times and the arrangement is temporary.

I agree with posters who say that it would have been better if she had returned to her mother's house at the end of the weekend, not because she shouldn't be allowed to choose to live with her father when she wanted to but because she and her mother need to open a channel of communication and reach a new understanding in their relationship. At the moment she is avoiding that, probably out of fear of the reaction she will encounter and this isn't going to be helpful, either for her future relationship with her mother or her ability to make a good decision about her future residency and contact arrangements.

Delurking to say good luck to the Op and her family.

I have read this tread appalled that any woman would lie about abuse as revenge and subject innocent children to a system of care riddled with flaws and, very tragically, exposing them to a raised risk of real abuse.

I'm am genuinely shocked any mother would stoop to this inhuman level of cruelty.

I think the mother in this case must be suffering MH issues to resort to this and genuinely needs support but not at her DD's expense.

totally agree with cansu.

Can people please remember this is thread started by the OP for help and support, they are the ones living this nightmare. If you can not do that then please go argue/discuss elsewhere, or just don't read.

because she and her mother need to open a channel of communication and reach a new understanding in their relationship.

I really can't understand why posters think it is a priority that she be with her (terrible) mother right now. It is not. The girl needs time and fortunately, she's been given it.

one post commented on this way back and I haven't seen it answered. Dsd wasn't ever there for Christmas as she was told her dad and step mum and step brother were away as were her grandparents. did dsd ever ask where they went? did she not talk to them on Christmas day and ask them? seems very odd that question would never have been asked. surely if the girl had asked ut would have started stuff off earlier that the ex was lying to the girl. odd.

well, the way this thread is going I'd be surprised if the OP returned.

Could I suggest that those who want to have a debate about the rights and wrongs of the family court system go away and start their own thread, and leave this one to the OP to get the help and support she needs?

Inks, IME of children being brought up in this kind of situation, there is hardly ever any challenge or interrogation.

Child fears what the lying parent says is true and child fears what the lying parent is not true. So they don't ask.

Of course, it is massively damaging.

Op, I hope you are well and things are looking brighter.

The current situation seems to be the least worst option.

In situations like the one the OP described, the least worse option is, in fact, the best possible outcome she can hope for.

When one parent behaves in the way that the OPsDSDs mum has, for whatever reason, then the other parent can't solve the problem no matter what they do. If a parent is implacably hostile, then that is the strongest factor that influences the child's life.
Choices the other parent makes can either exacerbate or relieve the damage, but no matter what they do, damage will be done, about which they can do nothing about.

It has taken DH and myself a long time to stop seeking a solution. It was frustrating attending courses, reading books, listening to professionals speak, only to be left wondering "what next? we've tried all that!"

We now realise that there is no resolution. All a parent can do in this situation is avoid making choices that make things worse for the DC.

scarlett if you are still reading, I think it is realistic to say that you won't be able to save your DSD from damage. All you can do is be there to help pick up the pieces.

inks I can answer your question. I was raised in an environment like this. I was lied to and manipulated by my mother. She accused my dad of doing horrible things, of not wanting me, some really vile stuff. All of which was 100% untrue as it turns out, but I believed her at the time, she was my mother why would she lie to me?

It keeps you off balance and under confident so you won't challenge or ask questions. If the DSD believed her mother regarding Christmas she must have felt unwanted by her father. In which case she would not have wanted to challenge the arrangement for fear of further rejection. I can just imagine her thinking 'well they clearly don't want me at christmas and if I ask them they will tell me they don't want me, which will make me feel even worse and confirm my fears'. I had the same feelings. DSD is more confident now because reality has come crashing in and she feels she can now challenge and ask questions. She is angry and justifiably so. She has been betrayed by the central figure in her life and that is very difficult to fully recover from.

I suspect the ex has some mental health issues that are affecting her behaviour. With my mother it was depression but she has never really dealt with it just blamed others.

I wish the court system had been this supportive when I was young and I had the courage to do the same when I was DSDs age. It would have really helped me in the long run

The rights and feelings of the mother DO NOT over ride those of the child. The child is vulnerable and needs a safe and emotionally secure environment. The child has every right to articulate what she wants. In this instance mother does not know best.

I really can't understand why posters think it is a priority that she be with her (terrible) mother right now. It is not. The girl needs time and fortunately, she's been given it.

It isn't a priority for her to stay with her mother right now but she needs to have some contact with her. This child has lived with her mother all her life. They have a massive shared history and a deep relationship that will continue for some time to come. What will happen next will be playing on the DSD's mind.

The DSD is going to be very aware that her actions will have caused her mother some distress. Regardless of whether that distress was deserved, she will be concerned about the response she will encounter when she sees her mother again, be worrying about what to say to her and how to word it and unsure of how their relationship is going to move forward.

Yes, the relationship is possibly quite dysfunctional and yes, the mother is clearly a toxic person but no court in the land is going to allow contact to cease. They will have to see each other and it won't help the child to keep it hanging over her.

she will be concerned about the response she will encounter when she sees her mother again, be worrying about what to say to her and how to word it and unsure of how their relationship is going to move forward.

Definitely. We saw this with DSS, when he was a year or so younger than the OPs DSD.
In DSS case, he refused contact one particular week and then continued to resist further contact because he was "scared" that DH would be upset/angry because he had refused previously. He had got himself caught in a vicious cycle.
It took facilitation by the school, who informally "supervised" contact between DSS and DH, to reinitiate contact and communication between them.

A few years earlier, DSD was not so fortunate. Having been allowed to reject DH and not see him it became difficult for her to reinitiate contact because she was concerned about the consequences/impact of her choice on her Dad. It was over two years before she reinitiated contact - and only then because she was assaulted by her mum.

scarlett your DSD may never be "ready" to see her Mum - but for her sake, it is important that she does so as soon as possible.

Scarlett i hope you still use this thread for the support you need and that you can ignore the comments that you don't agree with.

This thread is still here to support you through this time. I do find it interesting to see other peoples opinions though, as it gives me insight into the range of different emotions you and your family will be feeling at different times throughout this time.

To be completely honest i believe you and you DH have handled this in absolutely the right way and i believe you will continue to do so. You both seem to have your DSDs best interests at heart. And that is absolutely what being a good Step Mother is all about.

thanks caterpillarmom. that makes perfect sense and is very helpful.

Hope thinks are well op, fwiw, I think you and your dp absolutely did the right thing. I hope dsd is settling well