please please help really scared

[scarlettandrhett]

DH and I have our own DS and DH has a DD my DSD.

Getting contact was horrendous as ex stopped all contact when she found out about me. I was not the OW. I met DH long after they split up, they were not married.
During the court hearing and out of the blue, she phones me and wants a agreement over contact that we can put before the judge. The suggestion she gave was what DH had wanted. The judge stamped the order.
My gut was telling me that as long as DH played by her rules, all would be ok but if he stepped out of line, all hell would break loose.

Contact was great for the next 3 years. We got DSD more than the court order stated. I became ex "new best friend" and DH and I played her game.

Last month, DH made a geniune mistake over drop off and she went nuts, calling DH every name under the son. DH had had enough and told her so. Yes, contact was stopped, all attempts at communication were stopped.

About 3 hours ago, she came to our door and said she wanted to sort it out. Like a fool, I let her in.
I cannot believe what happened next and even as I write this I feel that I will wake up from a dream.

She proceded to tell us if we take her back to court, she will say DH was abusing DSD. She said that even though it is not true the fallout will affect our own DS. She said she will go to SS with these claims and will say she has real fears for my DS as well. She will go to the police and ensure our DS is removed from our home until an investigation is completed. She said she will tell SS that was why she stopped contact. She is a teacher and knows what do. I thought DH was going to go for her. She was calm, not shouting, screaming, just very calm and smiled through it all.

I cannot believe this is happening, I cannot even find the words to describe it. After she said this, it is all a haze, she walked out our home them. What do we do? What happens. I am really scared now.

I have changed my name

Thank goodness your DH is good at remaining calm and focussed in stressful situations.

I would imagine the ex's next move is going to be to tackle her DD at school. You need to prepare her for that eventuality and get her to think through how she would like to deal with that should it happen.

She does need to see her mum and at school, perhaps with another member of staff present, could be an option. You need to think through things like this with her before she goes or she may feel ambushed and powerless.

You are clearly being scapegoated by the ex which is predictable. You need to be very careful about what you say to your DSD other than practicalities and letting her know that she can call your home her home forever if she so wishes.

Your DSD is lucky to have you and your DH working in partnership to support her so well. I have a feeling that you're all in for a long rollercoaster ride before this is all resolved.

All of us are going to the school tomorrow to met with the HT at 10am

DSD needs to be back at school to get some normality back asap.

I dont know if the HT can stop the ex from approaching DSD but hopefully he can have a word with the ex to stay away for the next couple of days.

My friend works in the local teenage drop in cafe as a support worker and I am going to see if she will agree to ask another person who works with her to possible supervise/support a visit between the ex and dsd.

We will need to get dsd to agree to this asap so she had no worries about seeing her mum at school.

Hopefully Dsd will agree to this and so will her mum.

I dont think it would be a good idea for DH and I to be there as this will only inflame the situation and the ex would accuse us of trying to manipulate dsd.

Dsd asked how it went when DH went to the ex and was her mum angry. DH said ex was a little upset but accepted what was happening for now.

DSD said tough she was upset, she shouldnt have done what she did. Again both DH and I said that she is your mum and right now everyone is upset at the situation but if we all work together, we can sort it. DSD reiterate that she wants to live her.

She opened up a bit more and said she used to hate going home after each visit with us as her mum would question everything she had done with us, where we were, if anyone came round, did we buy her anything etc. They did argue about it a bit and dsd said the ex would make comments about what we had done and said to make sure if our DS got anything, she (dsd) was to get something to.

While there was no real "posion" from the ex to dsd about us, dsd said she got fed up about the constant questions and sometimes snide remarks.

The ex really has dug herself a big hole hasn't she? Her emotions have been running high about what's happening in your household. I have to wonder if this is about more than her feelings just for your DSD.

For a teacher she really isn't very clued up about children. They aren't stupid. They often know when adults have an agenda and are trying to manipulate them and they don't take kindly to people trying to poison them against others that they love.

You're both going to have to tread carefully to find that balance between acknowledging your DSD's perfectly reasonable emotions about recent events and this historical undermining and helping her to see some of the positives about their relationship so that she feels able to let her back into her life. It will be very easy to appear to be dismissing your DSD's legitimate feelings in these conversations.

How are you feeling now? Your emotions must be running high just now and you must be exhausted too. Have you found anyone to rant at or any punchbags to lay into? How is your own DS taking all this drama? Are you managing to keep life fairly normal for him?

I think the only thing I would say is that DH now has to deflect all the ex's attempts to drag you into this situation. When she says this is your doing he needs to be very clear: these are his decisions, as his dd's parent. They have nothing to do with you, he is dealing with this. It's not enough just to say 'no that isn't what scarlett is doing' - fundamentally you aren't doing anything. He is.

scarlett given the position that ex is taking - that this situation has been engineered by you through a motivation to steal her DD - I think that you going to the school tomorrow with your DH and DD may provide her with ammunition to reinforce it.

Your role is solely to support from now on - it is your DH and your DSD who have decisions to make. You can make your boundaries clear to your DH - for instance, that you won't be in the same room as DSD mum ever again - but it is up to him to make decisions that he believes are best for his DD and the family, bearing in mind any boundaries you may have made clear.

I think that if you present yourself as an equal adult, alongside your DH, in your DDs life right now it could be presented in court as evidence that your DSD Mum has genuine reason to fear that you have ambition to replace her.

You are both doing really well, I am so impressed with the way you have handled this and with the help you have had from the police and the courts, it's all very heartening.

School should be somewhere that DSD can be free of all of this, it's most unfortunate her mother works there. Hopefully the HT will impress upon the ex that this is what DSD needs and any attempt to contact her in school hours is forbidden. It's only fair.

She is unbalanced. I would push for residency of DSD, not 50/50, then it's up to DSD if/when she sees her mother and you wont be forced to send her against her will.

I think you might get more info by drip from DSD, things she doesn't even realise weren't right :(

I can see why a few people have said they feel sorry for the ex, but I don't. she works with children - she knows what those kids would have gone through if she had followed through with her plan. It wasn't 'heat of the moment' it was a cold, calculated plan to keep her daughter from her father and blow another family apart. She needs help and a change of jobs.

She is unbalanced. I would push for residency of DSD, not 50/50, then it's up to DSD if/when she sees her mother and you wont be forced to send her against her will

The fact that she is "unbalanced", or at least, not motivated by what is right for her DD, is a very compelling argument for not giving the DC the power to choose whether or not to see her Mum right now.

A child cannot predict the lifetime impact the rejection of a parent will have. If she decides, now, that she doesn't want to see her mum for weeks/months/years, then the relationship will be fractured forever. As she grows up, she will not have a close mother-figure in her life; on her wedding morning or when she has a baby, for instance.

Of course, if her mother is still unbalanced in later life, then the DC as an adult can make an informed decision to exclude her mum from her life. But the OPs DSD is far too young to decide to head down that path now, and should not be permitted or expected to make such significant choices with irreversible consequences.

Right now, safe contact for the DC with her mum is essential, and should be the OPs DHs priority. Placing responsibility for her future relationship with her mum in the hands of a 12 year old girl is emotionally abusive in the same way as the mothers behaviour has been.

wakey have you tried reading this as a thread, a conversation, not picking on one bit of each post as you go. The OP has already said that DSD wont be allowed to choose not to see her Mum at all, that she will have to, that she needs to. The OP has already said she doesn't want the ex to 'lose her daughter'.

I trust the OP and her DH to do the right thing for DSD and I support them having control of the situation and encouraging a good relationship between DSD and her mother, that will not be gained by her being forced, by law to live there 50/50 or visiting on x & y days.

Whether posters on here consider the ex to be unbalanced won't change the fact that her behaviour will not be considered reason to cease contact.

This child will be expected to maintain contact with her mother at a reasonable level at least and her father will be expected to support that and enable it if he is granted permanent residency.

What's important right now is that she is helped to rebuild her relationship with her mother and supported in expressing her wishes about her long term future to CAFCASS.

Children of 12 are considered old enough to make decisions about residency and contact arrangements and her wishes will be taken into account.

I have read this thread with a combination of and disbelief.

I despise any parent who can be so manipulative when it comes to their child and essentially use them as a pawn in their games to get back at their ex.

But, as much as I believe that children are incredibly astute and quickly have a good idea of what’s going on, and make their own choices as they grow up, I find it quite unbelieveable, and even terrifying that a child can get angry with their parent, say they want to live with the other parent, and a court will grant residency (albeit temporarily) to a parent who has never previously had residency of the child on the word of a twelve year old who has been told different stories by different parents one day and made their decision to change residences the next.

And while I’m not that familiar with the workings of the family courts, I can’t say that the idea of residency being removed from a parent without their knowledge, and that decision being delivered by the parent being granted residency rather than by an official person sits comfortably with me at all.

Is this really how the courts work? Does that therefore mean that if any one of us had a falling out with our child in the morning, and they went to the other parent and said “I want to live with you,” the other parent could go to court and remove residency and they could come and deliver the news in person without us even being aware the hearing had taken place? Really?

Now I’m aware that this isn’t just a standard falling out, but equally it doesn’t appear the child is at risk which might necessitate an emergency residence order (I don’t think they’re actually called that any more are they?) so how has it been this easy to gain residence without the mother even having a right of reply?

Wow, that has to be the most epic fail of all time on behalf of the ex.

There are no winners in this, your poor DSD having to deal with this but so glad you and DH found your strength to fight for her and yourselves.

I don't feel sorry for the vindictive bitch at all. It will take a miracle to undo the damage she has done to her daughter.

Goblin and Haff and Gold and Wannabe Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to articulate earlier. It wasn't that I have any sympathy for what the mother did or the position she now finds herself in, but that the swiftness of the court decision to switch PR to the father, albeit temporarily, did seem a little stage-managed, and rather too much too soon, without adequate discussion. Children (and especially teens) demand all sorts of things in anger and high emotion but it doesn't mean everyone should roll over and grant them without due thought. Unless it suits our own agenda…and that is how this is going to look if Scarlett and her DH are not very, very careful.

I just think emotions have been running very high in the last 48 hours (understandably) and perhaps Scarlett and her DH have fallen into the trap of overplaying DD's wishes to stay with them in a bid to teach the mother a lesson?

I know the child requested it, but as you and I all said earlier it was probably a knee-jerk reaction. She must be very confused and distressed and needs time to process it all, and analyse her mother's motives.

Being sat down in front of DF, DSM, and grandparents and being regaled with a long list of all the lies her mother has told as a way of controlling and manipulating her relationship with her father going back months/years is going to have have that effect, isn't it? My fear is that Scarlett and her DH (if they were being entirely honest) perhaps allowed themselves to take DDs anger and shock and run with it as a way of exacting retribution on the mother, rather than out of the genuine, long-term best interests of the DD.

She can, and probably will change her mind within weeks/months because the sudden change of routine and all the emotions tied up with all may be too much for her to cope with.

I think that if you present yourself as an equal adult, alongside your DH, in your DDs life right now it could be presented in court as evidence that your DSD Mum has genuine reason to fear that you have ambition to replace her.

This ^ with bells on.

Wakey has it right Scarlett, you should take a back seat now, for your own protection. Any direct involvement will just give ex the ammunition she needs, and at the risk of being flamed it is starting to read like she might have a point. There is no doubt that she is the baddie in this, but that position can swiftly be reversed if you allow your anger at her to cloud your judgement from hereon. you are already the natural scapegoat as stepmother, don't play into her hands.

And I don't think it's necessary or appropriate for you to actively seek out someone to 'support/supervise' a visit between DD and her mother. That will backfire on you. Let them be alone together, assuming DD agrees to it. She is old enough to understand what's being said to her and whether there is any manipulation afoot.

I think you've handled it brilliantly.

Best of luck.

I think you have handled it brilliantly as well. These sort of situations are highly emotive for everyone.

I have seen this happen to a friend but with the very significant difference being that it was her ex threatening and playing games. He managed to convince the DD that her mother had lied and a heap load of other crimes and in the space of an evening the child left to live with him. He came to the house to remove her and there was an emotional scene etc.

Wannabe - that's exactly what I can't understand. I thought those sorry of emergency court orders were what social workers used when they needed to take a child into care urgently. Not something that could happen behind a parent's back to remove a 12 year old from her DM's care just because of a fall out.

I can see why a lot of people on this thread are supporting Scarlett enthusiastically - it must be a lot of step mother's fantasy's to have the awful ex show her true colours and it backfire so spectacularly.

But what if - in a different situation (not yours Scarlett) - a NRP was to spin their child a pack of lies themselves and decide to dish the dirt on their ex? 12 year olds can still be quite black and white on their thinking. They could also have all sorts of poor reasons for fancying a stay at their dad's (slacker parenting, etc) Can they really end up on court at 9.30 the next morning telling a judge they don't want to live with their mum any more and that be that?

It really frightens me to read in this thread that child could be taken away from the parent who's brought them up all their life so easily

I agree that ex has behaved appallingly, and not a little unhinged. I agree that op and her dh have acted properly and within the law. I agree that the poor child is probably reeling and bouncing from one to another.........
But -the father left the ex before she was even born! This manipulation and sniding took the ex has been going on for more than 13 years! She hasn't moved on with her life?

Sounds like the entire focus of her life -is your life, op. The strange threats, with a completely calm, smiling demeanour, (over a 30 minute late pick up? ) is weird. The minimising,'misunderstanding', the text to op, the blame on op for 'stealing'her dd - something strange there.

I think the emergency here is that the child is refusing to return and thus Scarlett's DH is breaking a court order....inadvertently.

I think the judge wisely acknowledges this as a temporary situation until everyone's emotions have settled. They must have seen it list of times

It's not a case that OP DH and DSD have gone to court and dsd demanded to stay with her dad.

They went court and explained to a judge what had happen and that DSD did not want to go home at the moment and to stop DSD being forced by her mother and or with the police and therefore adding more stress/upset to DSD to go home her father has got a temporary order so that DSD can not be forced.

And I don't think it's necessary or appropriate for you to actively seek out someone to 'support/supervise' a visit between DD and her mother.

If the child wants that support, especially if the meeting were to be in school where the parent/child/staff/pupil relationship is more complex. it is entirely appropriate to support her in asking for it.

Can they really end up on court at 9.30 the next morning telling a judge they don't want to live with their mum any more and that be that?

It isn't a case of that's that though. This is a temporary arrangement put in place because a 12YO is refusing to return to her mother's home and her father would be in breach of the court order if a change were not made. He hasn't been given permanent residence. She's just staying with him for a short time.

The rather undesirable alternatives could be to force the child to go home, possibly literally restraining and manhandling her and risk her running away repeatedly and being at risk of harm while doing so or the father having to refuse her entry to his house.

Yes I see what you're saying Gold It's just having that in place without a court date even set for a more permanent settlement that makes it seem so dramatic.

Could the same happen if my 12 year old ran off after a row and decided to live with a friend (assuming friend's parents happy to have her off course)? What if she just refused to go to school? I'd have to force her then or I'd be breaking the law. I don't parenting a 12 year old should be about manhandling them, nor about giving them exactly what they want. Surely as a parent you have some degree of authority over where they go and what they do at that age that doesn't require you to resort to brute force? I've ordered mine to come home from a friend's when she's rather not, made her get up to go to school, told her she's going to her dad's today, etc. She may protest but ultimately she does what I tell her because I'm her parent and she knows that. I don't really get the notion that the only way to make a 12 year old go home to get mum's would be to manhandle her or call the police

purpleroses massive over reaction. The child has not 'been removed from the parent that brought her up all her life'

The child is 12, she has told a judge she doesn't want to go back to her mothers, the judge has wisely said 'OK, you can stay at your Dad's until we can sort this out properly'.

It's hardly ripping a young child from her mothers wailing arms.

Also, her Dad has been in her life ALL of her life, he's brought her up too - or does he not count because it's her Dad and not her Mum?

and it's not a case of 'Mum wont let me do x' either is it? Her mother threatened to make a false claim of sexual abuse, simply so she couldn't have contact with her Dad. This woman works in a school, she knows what this would have done to her daughter... Thankfully the judge looked at the bigger picture and didn't say 'You must go back to your mother because she's your mother, irrespective of what she has done and how you feel'.

It is a temporary situation while the courts look into it. What did you expect them to do, send the police in to physically take her to her mother's? How do you propose to keep a 12 year old there who doesn't want to be there, you can't just put a stair gate up - she's 12.

Purple - Don't you think the mother rather loses the moral high ground, the 'You will do as I have said because I'm your mother' footing when she has lied about the father? Has threatened to report a false claim of sexual abuse? Has stopped contact and lied to her daughter about it?

I don't think the mother in this scenario has any moral high ground, no.

I'm just shocked that, in general, it can be so quick and simple to keep a child from going home.

Agree with chipping.

Her Dad's place is her home as well.