Emotional abuse of DSC's, again...

[Asteria]

DSS (6) and DSD (8) have a very tricky narcissistic mother (as I have mentioned in a previous thread) who is really pulling at them emotionally and making them miserable when they visit us. This has fluctuated over the last few years but is getting worse again.
Last weekend DSD was near hysterical before bed all three nights - on saturday night we were seriously worried about her as she has a complete freak out about nothing and it took 3 hours to calm her. When DH tried to find out why she said "it is really tricky for me" and then later told me that she would "make mummy sad" if she told me what was wrong. DSD did say that her mother was really sad and missed them when they were with us. During a recent phonecall to their mother, DSS refused to talk to their mother and whilst we were trying to coax him she said "don't you want to tell me how much you miss me - don't you want to tell me how much you love me" (DSC's always use speakerphone after she insisted on her end so she could hear DH's calls) and then proceeded to berate DH for not getting DSS to talk to her. This is pretty usual shit - it is just a few months since she has been so openly nasty.

It now turns out that the DSC's stepfather (ex W's partner) is threatening them with violence - in his words "we run a tight ship" and by all accounts he would never actually hit DSC's, but they have seen his children being smacked so the threat is even more real. DSS freaks out if he makes the smallest mistake and has told me on numerous occasions that he as come "this close" to being smacked. DH has made it very clear to this man that smacking and threats of are unacceptable, but that has made no difference.

DH and I are so worried that SS will just say it isn't bad enough - despite the serious emotional issues that both DSC's have already, that are worsening - and we are worried that the SS route will just make the ugly beast worsen!

Can dh talk to the kids school and or doctor or even school nurse?

I would also get him to contact social services and report his concerns so that there is a paper trail.

your poor dsc's!

DH is calling SS tomorrow, he just worries that the behaviour will escalate if she is provoked in any way. I think the SS's reluctance to remove children makes him hesitant as she will just go quiet and then change tack - meanwhile turning on the charm with anyone official. She lied in court when he challenged her for withholding contact and emotional neglect earlier in the year. DH felt so let down by it all. She did improve briefly after that but is now back to her old nastiness. I just don't understand how anyone can be so cruel to children.

Sadly, your experience is horribly familiar to me. We've had SocServ, police, paramedics, counsellors, Cafcass and old Uncle Tom Cobley and All trapsying through our lives over the last few years, and yet the DCs are still subject to abuse at the hands of their mum - and are likely to be well into adulthood.

My advice would be for your DH to maintain whatever contact he can, however minimal, but at the same time, make sure you keep that paper trail. Call SocServ if you are worried, seek the schools support, push the family GP to refer the DCs for counselling. Not necessarily because you genuinely think it will make a difference (even if it does get them some help, it's only likely to scratch the surface) but in order to prove that your concerns are genuine and long standing. Even then, it may not make any difference.

Sad, but that's how the system works.

Karen Woodalls latest blog is a narrative for professionals encountering for the first time a child subject to alienation. If you encounter a receptive professional, it might be worth pointing them in that direction.

My experience of emotional abuse similar to what you've mentioned above is that SS won't be interested in the slightest!

Cafcass were unbelievably dismissive of the evidence DH presented, which also had incidents of withholding medical attention for both DSCs (DSS had breathing problems and DSD was badly bitten by a dog). I just don't understand how the system am be so totally flawed that it leaves children in the hands of abusers. Just because she hasn't stubbed cigarettes out on them doesn't mean they are any less damaged

asteria to avoid further frustration and disappointment DH and I have lowered our expectations of CAFCASS and the Family Court system.

The reality is that even parenting that includes physical violence can be considered "good enough" by a court, and that is the standard against which cases are judged.
Because it is an adversarial system, many parents are under the misapprehension that the court is choosing which of the two parents is the "better" one. That's not the case. The Court is deciding whether the current situation for the child is "good enough". If, in the opinion of the court, it is, then they are unable to intervene, even if much "better" parenting is available from the other parent.

Somehow, you and your DH may need to find a way of coming to terms with the fact that your DSC are being emotionally abused and damaged but that there is nothing you can do to intervene right now.

We're in a similar position. SocServ entirely dismissive, it's crap.

So sad to hear that the system can be so useless - and horrid to hear that this is not that uncommon. Does anyone have any tips on giving the DSC's the support that they need without it hitting their mother's radar and incurring more of her wrath?

Can you document it down in a journal of your own each time the DSC say something to you or when you hear something from mum that = in your eyes EA. I'm not sure if SS would do something but it's still worth getting in contact - especially if DH and yourself are so worried about the children. At least that way you've done what you can and also have some sort of trail to show SS the pattern of EA.

The problem is, in many instances like this where a parent is being EA - they don't see it as that themselves. It's not like they can switch on and realise "Oh, I've been out of order here." They see it as the norm for a parent. In their eyes they have done absolutely nothing wrong.

This is a helpful thread. Disappointingly we have had similar problems recently come back to the fore, culminating in being denied access per our court order. Our solicitor advised us unless there are several instances of breaking the court order they really won't be interested. Much as it disappoints I think we had reached the same conclusions about nothing will be done, so I kind of appreciate you setting our expectations.

At the moment we are just stuck with making notes of everything, and trying to help SD with dealing with mum. I really sympathise Asteria what you describe is so similar, we had hours of screaming about going to bed, 3 hours of screaming from a 9 year old - so so disturbing. It is hard being the step parent. All you want to do, every instinct in you is to protect them from this person, but this person is mum. Awful.

All I can say is what I have said to my partner, there comes a point we have to stop being protective of mum, we try not to cause further conflict but ultimately by not saying 'I don't agree that mum did that' we appear to be condoning her behaviour as ok. Instead I think we need to push more to find out what is really going on, we just get 'you know how mum is', when in reality I don't. For example, if the kids just refuse the phone then take it off speaker phone, take it into another room and say, you are pushing them too hard, you are making them upset, you need to calm down and I will try them again later for you.

The problem, if that wasn't enough problems, is that even were you to get residency, you STILL would have to deal with her for visits, so really nothing is fully 'solved'. It's a horrible situation, I hope you manage to help the kids. It makes me so sad SD is so happy here, we send her back and she comes back an exhausted sad mess again.

It's a very stressful situation, I got very upset about all of this, so I also say to you look after yourselves and be confident in yourselves. The kids need to see us be strong and calm and in control, to be their calm adult they can be confident in when sadly mum lets them down.

I am a massively anal note taker - poor DH can't even face looking at them most of the time as he feels that he has totally let his DCs down.

Thank you robotroy - it is reassuring to hear the stop supporting the mother sentiment. I have tried so hard, on the insistence of others, to be outwardly supportive of her - but it feels like I am betraying the children when I say "I'm sure she didn't mean..." to them. I feel like I am reinforcing her abuse if I show any form of support for her actions against them. I know as the second wife/stepmother I am some sort of family stealing monster in many peoples eyes - but that simply isn't the case! I am emotionally drained after our contact weekends - if their mother has been winding them up they are horrendous emotional wrecks. We feel like we just patch them up and send them back to war!
It is no coincidence that the ex has come from an emotionally abusive background. But that doesn't make it acceptable.

I am emotionally drained after our contact weekends

It may be necessary for your own mental health to detach from the situation.

Yes, it's incredibly hard, and something I only achieved with the support of counselling - but the alternative would have been to allow the situation to consume me.

Sadly, these are not your DCs, and you cannot save them. It is, of course, inevitable that your DH will continue to make every effort for them - but both you, and he, need to set boundaries as to how much you are prepared to sacrifice in those efforts, which have no guarantee, or even likelihood, of success.

I know I've linked to this particular Family Law Case before, and it's incredibly depressing reading - but it does very clearly illustrate how far, and for how long, these cases can continue through the courts without any resolution. I think every parent who is involved in a case like this needs to be mindful of their own limits and boundaries and ensure that they do not allow the process to continue at any price.

"Divorce Poison" (on kindle for about a fiver I think) can really help you deal with the impact on the DSC while they are with you but I agree with the patching them up and sending them back sentiment. It's heartbreaking.

YY to Divorce Poison, and Karen Woodall has been blogging about Alienation and Implacable hostility for about a year while researching her own book about it based on British research done at the Centre for Separated Families. The book is due out any day.

DH bought a copy of Warshaks "Welcome Back Pluto" DVD and shared it with both his DCs. It struck a chord, and made a difference for a while. But it won't solve the issue by any means.

What sort of age is the DVD suitable for?

DSS was 8, but it would have been suitable for slightly younger and it is equally applicable to young teens as well - it's very well done.

Maybe rather than trying to justify their mother's actions you could encourage them to talk about how they feel when she does those things and wonder with them (without suggesting) why she does them. That way you are acknowledging their problems, helping them to process and express their emotions and giving them a way to understand her motives.

You can also make it clear that your home is their home and maybe, when they are older, they will choose to move in permanently. They will reach an age where their wishes are paramount. All you can do is try to make it as easy as possible for them in the meantime.

Wakey - It doesn't help that I am going through premature menopause at the moment - which contributes massively to my emotional robustness. I have tried to take the "nanny" approach to my DSC's but it is so hard to keep a distance, especially when I do genuinely love them. I would feel like I had failed them if I started setting boundaries - that said it is very clear that we will have little joy if we take her back through the family courts.

One thing that I found very difficult was that even in places like mn I have found open hostility at my criticism of her - even though she is blatantly abusive I do get the overwhelming message of "how dare you wade in playing better mummy and making out that you are better". It is not a matter of better and worse - or even differing parenting styles as has also been suggested - this is entirely down to a mother emotionally abusing her children and my being one of two people who are in a position to help them.

Perhaps this thread should become a support thread for the many step-parents (and their spouses) out there who spend their time patching up DSC's and sending them back to their abusive parents - meanwhile sitting totally powerless because the system deems it "good enough". There are enough of us about...

I will have a look at Divorce Poison and Karen Woodall - I think that DH and I need to just arm ourselves with as much understanding of how to help the DSC's in whatever way that we can.

Goldmandra - the problem is that DSD especially just sits silently with a blank expression on her face if you even try to approach how she feels about anything. She can't even answer a simple question like "what do you want to do when you grow up"! It is like she shuts down when she doesn't have her mother to tell her what to say (she always looks to her mother for answers when we are in her company or on skype with her in the background). The most DH and I ever got out of her was "it would make mummy sad if I said anything". She often comes out with quite grown up phrases like "you don't understand how tricky it is for me" - which I can only imagine is something that she has heard from her mother. We don't like to dig too much as we worry that it would overload her. DSS seems to be a lot more communicable - but he is largely ignored so, although this is horrid for him, he doesn't have the enormous emotional pressures of being the golden child like his sister

We don't like to dig too much as we worry that it would overload her. DSS seems to be a lot more communicable - but he is largely ignored so, although this is horrid for him, he doesn't have the enormous emotional pressures of being the golden child like his sister

I think you're right not to dig. She mustn't ever feel under pressure to betray her mother. I was thinking more along the lines of the times you feel compelled to say "I'm sure Mummy didn't mean....." as you mentioned earlier.

It might help her to hear you exploring feelings and thoughts with her brother if he expresses an opinion about his mother's behaviour about contact so she can observe until she feels safe enough to express her own thoughts. You'd have to do this very carefully, remaining very neutral, without making suggestions and without putting them under pressure to talk or to say anything negative.

Giving them a secure loving environment without any additional pressure and an adult to talk things through with and explore different perspectives on the behaviour of the grown ups around them is about the only way I think you can help them at this stage.

Does anyone else have experience of their DSC's shutting down emotionally? How have you dealt with it?

Yes we get that. We know that she uses all sorts of coping mechanisms, for example if she is being shouted at she will use fake crying and turn it back to something she is 'upset' about. She even will secretly lick her hand and use it to wet her eyes. We know her mum blows up at her, but I can't find out to what level. She will not say. She doesn't want to and I don't know if she shuts down because she thinks that we are attacking mum, or she has been told not to say, and thinks it will make it worse for herself. It's all very frightening stuff.

When she has shut down on other things we have been successful in just pressing gently and assuring nothing bad will happen. Something that really helps me is I do things like hobbies with her, and chat when she is NOT thinking about it. In this state of concentrating on horseriding or knitting etc she will chat quite absently and I can get most things out of her. I have two rules with this one I can't ever look amazed or she will realise she's said something controversial, and I can't have anything from those chats brought up elsewhere or she will loose trust.

For example these things about fake crying she has finally openly admitted, we won't ever tell mum. Although I realise strictly speaking this is 'naughty', we would be robbing her of a coping mechanism in my mind.

If we get her to open up on something then we at the end say, do you see now how a problem feels so much better, just because you talked about it. Nothing bad has happened. We will NEVER become angry about you expressing a feeling - but you have to mean it and stick by that. One thing my SD said to me was that she felt it was possible to say things to me because I am like a parent, but not actually one of the parents, so it seems ok to talk to me about things to do with them as I won't get upset. Of course actually I CAN get upset, but I don't show it (I like to call this BEING A GROWN UP).

asteria my DSS has shut down emotionally.

He shows no enthusiasm, enjoyment, disappointment, anger, even pain. We had all sorts of issues over the years; not revealing chronic pain, and when SocServ got involved because DSD disclosed her mums physical abuse, the social worker explained his job to DSS and DSS said that seemed an awful lot of effort to go to just for a child .

I haven't seen DSS for a year, but my DH who sees him fortnightly says that aspect of DSS behaviour has not changed despite the reduced hostility. He displays no emotion when DH sees him, when they do something "fun", when DH leaves.....nothing. DH often wonders whether continuing with contact makes things better or worse for DSS - it's impossible to tell.

His School teachers identified it, too - said he wasn't disruptive but was detached and disinterested in class.

robotroy I have told DSD in the past that I am here for her if she wants to say something that she feels might upset her parents and that I wouldn't tell them unless she wanted me to. She does have a habit of throwing in comments like "mummy lets me wear really high heels/make-up to school" and you can see her gauging the reaction as she knows we have a very different attitude to what is age appropriate. My usual line is "well if mummy is happy with that, then that is fine, but it would be very boring if both of your houses did things exactly the same way".

I don't think that it is a bad thing keeping the fake crying from your DSD's mother - it shows her that she can trust you. This can only be a good thing.

I believe that, when DSC's are having emotional outbursts, we should let them get it all out to a certain extent - they aren't given the option at their mother's house. Venting all that pent up emotion must be cathartic. DSD says that she is frightened of being shouted at if she comes downstairs after bedtime at her mother's house, but at least with us she can do that, even if it can be draining having her run up and down the stairs for ages after bedtime. DSS will curl up into the foetal position and wail if he is upset of feels he has done something wrong - his stepfather has told DH that "behaviour is not tolerated" in his house. He is threatened with a smack by the dick stepfather so just stops and shuts down. DH and I tend to scoop up the little ball of boy (he is emaciated because he has problems using a knife and fork and is not allowed to use his fingers to eat at home) and cuddle him till he stops in his own time.

when SocServ got involved because DSD disclosed her mums physical abuse, the social worker explained his job to DSS and DSS said that seemed an awful lot of effort to go to just for a child

I really don't want to risk SS letting our children down like that! HOW can they be so complacent?!