Emotional abuse of DSC's, again...

[Asteria]

DSS (6) and DSD (8) have a very tricky narcissistic mother (as I have mentioned in a previous thread) who is really pulling at them emotionally and making them miserable when they visit us. This has fluctuated over the last few years but is getting worse again.
Last weekend DSD was near hysterical before bed all three nights - on saturday night we were seriously worried about her as she has a complete freak out about nothing and it took 3 hours to calm her. When DH tried to find out why she said "it is really tricky for me" and then later told me that she would "make mummy sad" if she told me what was wrong. DSD did say that her mother was really sad and missed them when they were with us. During a recent phonecall to their mother, DSS refused to talk to their mother and whilst we were trying to coax him she said "don't you want to tell me how much you miss me - don't you want to tell me how much you love me" (DSC's always use speakerphone after she insisted on her end so she could hear DH's calls) and then proceeded to berate DH for not getting DSS to talk to her. This is pretty usual shit - it is just a few months since she has been so openly nasty.

It now turns out that the DSC's stepfather (ex W's partner) is threatening them with violence - in his words "we run a tight ship" and by all accounts he would never actually hit DSC's, but they have seen his children being smacked so the threat is even more real. DSS freaks out if he makes the smallest mistake and has told me on numerous occasions that he as come "this close" to being smacked. DH has made it very clear to this man that smacking and threats of are unacceptable, but that has made no difference.

DH and I are so worried that SS will just say it isn't bad enough - despite the serious emotional issues that both DSC's have already, that are worsening - and we are worried that the SS route will just make the ugly beast worsen!

We have discussed therapy - but the trouble is that the SDC live 70 miles away (that is for another thread!) and we would struggle to maintain anything regular for them - DH may consider going, but TBH he is robust enough for the process at the moment. There is also the financial aspect - it would have to be private and we simply cannot afford to pay for therapy at the moment.

If DH was entirely honest with himself, he would also admit that he is terrified of opening the floodgates. He has two daughters in their 20's that he was totally alienated from, initially by their mothers and later by his now ex wife. He was held to ransom over his older daughters by his ex wife, who threatened to take the DSC away from him if he made contact with their half-sisters. He buried a lot of emotional response and I really don't want to force him to dig it all out until he is really ready for it. He is now in touch with one of his older daughters, which was enormous for him and I hope will open up an avenue of healing for him that will filter right through all of this.

TBH he is not robust enough

Sounds like his ex was a real piece of work, Asteria :(

asteria it is a very difficult process, healing from an abusive relationship for anyone - men have different, but no less painful, issues to come to terms with.

I do think it is essential though, for your own future as well as thatveithvhis DCs. Your support for your DPs history and baggage should not be at the expense of your own emotional wellbeing. It may be necessary for him to rely on someone else to support him at times when he is at his least robust.

That is the understatement of the century Thumbwitch!!

WakeyCakey - I understand what you mean about preserving my emotional strength. Thankfully I have had decades of therapy to help me build up a robust bubble where necessary and all the research I have done for DH has helped me further in my understanding and healing process regarding my own childhood/narcissistic mother.
I'm clearly not a therapist, however I have a far deeper understanding of DH than anyone else (we talk a lot!) and I also understand some of the complexities of dealing with a chronic narcissist - from personal experience and also from extensive research. As I mentioned further up the page, we have a wonderful neighbour (retired MH/Addiction/relationship therapy nurse) that DH spends time with putting the world right. Her son was married to a very similar woman so she has personal and working knowledge of the situation DH is currently in. It isn't therapy, but it is a good start that works for him.

He has two daughters in their 20's that he was totally alienated from, initially by their mothers and later by his now ex wife.

So all three women/exes/mothers were complicit in the "parental alienation", or they acted in a way that your DH feels frustrated contact independently of one another?

How are relations with the first two exes now? Does your DH feel that they are all narcissists?

It certainly does seem that a pattern is repeating. It sounds very upsetting.

He was held to ransom over his older daughters by his ex wife, who threatened to take the DSC away from him if he made contact with their half-sisters

I think it's clear, arsenic that there was no cooperation between ex wives, just a blackmailing dictate. It's quite likely that whatever the relationship, resistance to contact by the older girls mothers would be the result if the OPs DHs responded to his then DWs ultimatum.

As a general observation which I think is relevant to this discussion, It is clear from the attitude on MN that society has a long way to go before it accepts abuse of a man by his wife with the same outrage and sympathy as a woman abused by her husband. Reading threads across the board, a man is often labelled abusive based solely on a description of behaviour, whereas in threads when a man is clearly said to be a victim of abuse, the label is questioned and doubted. I think all of us, men and women, who are supporting male partners who have survived abuse, often struggle with that lack of acknowledgement.

I think it's clear, arsenic that there was no cooperation between ex wives, just a blackmailing dictate. It's quite likely that whatever the relationship, resistance to contact by the older girls mothers would be the result if the OPs DHs responded to his then DWs ultimatum.

OP says "...alienated from, initially by their mothers and later by his now ex wife." Mothers first, then the most recent EXW. Not the other way around.

The coincidence that three women have acted similarly was striking.

I was looking for the pattern, connection, mechanism. If there is one. Perhaps he is just very very unlucky?

As a general observation which I think is relevant to this discussion, It is clear from the attitude on MN that society has a long way to go before it accepts abuse of a man by his wife with the same outrage and sympathy as a woman abused by her husband. Reading threads across the board, a man is often labelled abusive based solely on a description of behaviour, whereas in threads when a man is clearly said to be a victim of abuse, the label is questioned and doubted. I think all of us, men and women, who are supporting male partners who have survived abuse, often struggle with that lack of acknowledgement.

If any of that IS relevant here (it is jumping the gun a bit) you are quite wrong in this instance.

A woman posting on Relationships to the effect that she was suffering the effects of three consecutive relationships with three identically problematic men, she would be encouraged to explore the pattern and make better choices.

The freedom programme, which women are directed to frequently on MN, has a lot of content about how to tell a 'bad' (abusive, damaged, controlling) man from a 'good' (healthy, balanced, sharing) one.

So I'm a little confused as to your point, really.

I totally understand what Wakey is saying. You get people saying to a woman "yes, he's EA, FA, DV" LTB - fair enough, I agree. And yes, you get the freedom programme to help those - which you should. But many (not only on MN) fail to see the abuse a man may suffer from a woman where it be maybe not so much DV but almost certainly in most cases EA and FA.

Is there a programme similar to the freedom programme for women that helps men that despite leaving a relationship, are still in the thrawls of EA because they have a connection with this person. Often they're self esteem and self worth is knocked for six and it's often - not always - just disregarded. They can be equally damaged.

Meh I get what i'm trying to say, just hope everyone else gets the crux of what I'm explaining :)

I see what you're saying Nacho.

But my point was around the idea that when negative patterns repeat, the causes need examining. That was all.

But my point was around the idea that when negative patterns repeat, the causes need examining. That was all.

Oh yes, I get that. If you've been in several relationships where the same pattern resumes then it's about trying to recognise it. But the freedom programme is primarily designed for women. Is there such a programme for a man? To help them recognise certain traits and patterns of abuse too?

For instance - I'm on MN and yep it offers a lot of advice in what to look for but DH wouldn't think to come here and look for advice. I think he'd rather speak to someone face-to-face who could explain such to him.

For instance - I'm on MN and yep it offers a lot of advice in what to look for but DH wouldn't think to come here and look for advice. I think he'd rather speak to someone face-to-face who could explain such to him.

I think (gross generalisation) that is probably true of many men.

The OP's DH isn't here either, she is posting about him (and is presumably relying on his account of events in his relationships), which is another thing which affects the responses given - posters aren't speaking directly to a man who says himself that he has been abused - that happens rarely. I don't think there is a poor reaction when it does happen.

posters aren't speaking directly to a man who says himself that he has been abused - that happens rarely.

True, but they are speaking to his wife who has had a first hand account from him and who has probably witnessed such behaviour for herself. He may or may not recognise it as abuse himself (as some women don't) but those around him recognise it as such. And if I had to make a judgement on his wife's posts I'd think the same.

True, but they are speaking to his wife who has had a first hand account from him and who has probably witnessed such behaviour for herself.

I just think, as regards Wakey's point, you can't compare directly between the reaction posters posting about their own experiences get and the responses a poster posting about someone else's relationship history receives. The posting dynamic is different, regardless of gender, so it is hard to make comparisons and say they are due to gender when so few men post on their behalf.

But I still can't see evidence of the scepticism Wakey is apparently reading on this thread, so the point is moot here.

He may or may not recognise it as abuse himself (as some women don't) but those around him recognise it as such. And if I had to make a judgement on his wife's posts I'd think the same.

Now I know there are three exes, all of whom the OP considers guilty of parental alienation, I am even more convinced therapy would be wise.

(It's a big burden on the OP to be dealing with all this herself)

you can't compare directly between the reaction posters posting about their own experiences get and the responses a poster posting about someone else's relationship history receives.

You're probably right. But you can make a direct comparison between the responses when a poster narrates the experience of a friend/sister/work colleague in a relationship and those to a poster who shares her partners abusive relationship history. And while many posters are advised to encourage their "friend" to call women's aid, the same advice is not often forthcoming when a women is the alleged perpetrator.

I wasn't specifically referring to replies on this thread when I referred to social scepticism - just highlighting that in addition to the support we are providing to our DPs with history of abuse, we are also dealing with a general lack of support in society.
My understanding was that this is a general support thread for those of us whose dSC are being emotionally abused? It is almost inevitable that our DP would have been on the receiving end of the same behaviour while in a relationship with their mother. And that is often baggage they bring into their relationship with us. It adds yet another dimension to an already emotionally exhausting situation.

BUt I think the point that Arsenic is making is that it appears the OP's DH has had three such ex-partners - three women all choosing to alienate his children away from him. The latest ex sounds like she enjoyed facilitating that in respect of his first two DDs, but what about their mothers? Were they all abusive? All narcs? or is there some other common factor?

Right! I had better give a little clarity here!! With DH's first daughter he was 16, his girlfriend wanted a council house and all the trappings, he suggested that they were too young but it fell on deaf ears. They were together for 2.5 years after she was born, but eventually parted because he was desperate to get out of the benefits loop and provide more for his family and the mother refused (her entire family were devoted scroungers) - she then refused him access and he didn't fight it. He openly admits he should have done more, but her entire family were openly hostile and took his wanting to earn a living as a personal slight on their choice to work the benefits system. His second daughter was the product of a 3 month relationship where the mother disappeared the day after she told him she was pregnant. He was devastated by it. Yes he could have done more over the years, but he had a huge amount of resentment for being trapped into parenthood at such an early age and then having his children taken away from him. His wife used this as a weapon against him when they had children - so for 15 years he was unable to even try and contact his older daughters.
He isn't perfect, he has made massive mistakes, but he certainly isn't the "common denominator" casting blame on innocent mothers he has left in his wake.

Sorry Asteria - although that was one thought, it wasn't the only other possible common factor, he could have just been unlucky in picking poor partners before you - but thank you for explaining how it was. Poor bloke.

I blame his mother!!

I'm rather confused about who is accusing who of implying what, BUT, Asteria as I said in my earlier post, even a woman who had experienced several DV relationships, would be encouraged to do some therapeutic work herself.

He IS the common denominator (in his life story of broken contact with various DC from various relationships). That isn't a phrase that automatically apportions blame to him.

Therapeutic work would be about looking at his family of origin, and formative ideas about family he may have gained and internal 'scripts' he carries and how these things have impacted on his romantic relationships, choices and relationships with his children.

X post. There you go.

He had a lot of therapy after towards the end of and after his divorce - we also talk a lot about all that stuff. He is good at owning his own mistakes and working through them. He freely admits to being a totally different man, emotionally, than he was even 2 years ago - hence exploring contact with his older daughters and working on damage limitation with the DSC.
I got him to read the Karen Woodall blog and he is processing all of that at the moment. It is a lot for even the most emotionally robust person to deal with!