Emotional abuse of DSC's, again...

[Asteria]

DSS (6) and DSD (8) have a very tricky narcissistic mother (as I have mentioned in a previous thread) who is really pulling at them emotionally and making them miserable when they visit us. This has fluctuated over the last few years but is getting worse again.
Last weekend DSD was near hysterical before bed all three nights - on saturday night we were seriously worried about her as she has a complete freak out about nothing and it took 3 hours to calm her. When DH tried to find out why she said "it is really tricky for me" and then later told me that she would "make mummy sad" if she told me what was wrong. DSD did say that her mother was really sad and missed them when they were with us. During a recent phonecall to their mother, DSS refused to talk to their mother and whilst we were trying to coax him she said "don't you want to tell me how much you miss me - don't you want to tell me how much you love me" (DSC's always use speakerphone after she insisted on her end so she could hear DH's calls) and then proceeded to berate DH for not getting DSS to talk to her. This is pretty usual shit - it is just a few months since she has been so openly nasty.

It now turns out that the DSC's stepfather (ex W's partner) is threatening them with violence - in his words "we run a tight ship" and by all accounts he would never actually hit DSC's, but they have seen his children being smacked so the threat is even more real. DSS freaks out if he makes the smallest mistake and has told me on numerous occasions that he as come "this close" to being smacked. DH has made it very clear to this man that smacking and threats of are unacceptable, but that has made no difference.

DH and I are so worried that SS will just say it isn't bad enough - despite the serious emotional issues that both DSC's have already, that are worsening - and we are worried that the SS route will just make the ugly beast worsen!

TBH OP that clarification makes him sound far from the blameless victim of circumstance.

Meh - apologies for the shite grammar! I'm working with a diddy iPhone screen!

I didn't say he was blameless - I'm also getting in a kerfuffle trying to put this into text. I know what I'm trying to say and it is coming out wrong if you are getting that idea Arsenic

X post again.

Ok so he's putting the work in? Fair play to him.

If he can get to the point of fully owning his own decisions (to be slack with contraception, to be deterred by family hostility from pursuing contact etc...) he'll probably find that inspires a lot of respect from others, even when he isn't explicitly discussing it all.

Then his most recent ex's unreasonable behaviour will become the main issue.

I'm also getting in a kerfuffle trying to put this into text.

Yes sorry, i know it's not easy.

I was 'typing' about my first marriage yesterday and it came out sounding like a series of headlines written by Jeremy Kyle. It's always the highest and lowest points that stand out, isn't it?

But there really is a lot of personal empowerment to be gained from facing up to your worst moments. It makes it easier to deal with the 'now'. And the DSC's DM does sound a horror.

Good luck with it

Fair comment about contraception - I also said that to him! He admitted that he should have been more careful, but when a teenage boy is told "don't worry, I'm on the pill" he believes it! That was why he waited 6 years into his relationship with his ex wife before he felt able to have another child.

Just cos I'm intrigued - how did he find his DD2 if her mum disappeared? Did she make contact again at some later date? Or did he have to track her down somehow?
This is a genuine question, honestly.

DD2 found him - the wonders of Facebook!

Clever girl! At least her mum told her his name then, that's something.
I have a relative (actually an in law) whose mother never told her who her father was. Don't know why, but it really affected said relative badly all her life, especially as her mother's second marriage was to a man of a different ethnic group, so she didn't look like any of her half-siblings either.

Families are so messed up!!

Anyway - back to the immediate matter of the formative years of DH's youngest DC's being destroyed by their emotionally abusive mother!

Does anyone have any ideas regarding taking the possibly unorthodox approach of calling the ex out and outlining the damage she is doing to the children in her attempts to control DH? Part of me thinks that, given how she has been in the past, she will shout and protest to DH but inevitably change her ways (subtly so as not to attract attention) so as not to look bad. To her it is all about how she looks as a parent rather than how she actually is. If DH does it in an "I think that we should look into therapy for the DCs because they are showing early signs of parental alienation and I would hate for it to become rooted and cause long term emotional problems for them" them she may just go for it - at the risk of looking like a monster if she doesn't.

Does anyone have any ideas regarding taking the possibly unorthodox approach of calling the ex out and outlining the damage she is doing to the children in her attempts to control DH?

In our case, using the direct approach has only resulted in the entrenched position of "my children don't need therapy" - not only reiterated to DH, but to the school (who recommended play therapy for DSS) the family GP (who suggested a CAHMS referral), and the social worker assigned to DSS case. She also cited in court that DHs desire to seek therapy for the DCs was abusive.

But, DH did send DSD a copy of the Warshaks DVD when she was last no contact with us - knowing full well that Ex would open it, and view the DVD, in order to find more material to support the alienation. He obligingly wrote a covering letter to DSD explaining what the DVD was, and how DSS had seen it too. Not sure if it made a difference, or not.

I know that her approach has changed since she applied to court and attended (court ordered) the SPIP course - she has, finally, realised that she can't rely on professionals and the family courts to automatically enforce her will on DH. So, whereas this time last year, she phoned/emailed DH a diatribe of abusive vitriol because he refused to sign over DSD investments into her (exW) sole name, this year, when the same circumstances arose with DSS investment, she has "accepted" DHs silence on the subject.

DH considered long and hard whether to apply to court for a Specific Issue Order regarding counselling/therapy for DSS - but, the professionals he spoke to made clear that unless DSS's mum was supportive, then it wouldn't be beneficial to him. She did, fairly soon after I'd moved in with DH, agree to a short set of counselling sessions for DSS after he became distressed about things his mum was saying about me and she eventually admitted that he'd "overheard" DSD and her slagging me off - the alternative was to agree that DSS must be lying.

The Counsellor gave up after three sessions as ex was openly coaching DSS while they were in the waiting room. The counsellor was incredibly apologetic to DH, and tried to highlight the damage being done to DSS to exW, but exW knew better.

ExW coaching the DSC would be our main concern not to push therapy as that would just confuse them more. There is a previous in that area - DSS was referred by his pre-school to a therapy group for aggressive behaviour. SS also had notes that DSD was referred for therapy for "attachment issues". exW claimed not to know about the latter and dismissed the former. At the time DH was unable to press further as she ignored any mention of it and he was living a considerable distance away.

If DH does it in an "I think that we should look into therapy for the DCs because they are showing early signs of parental alienation and I would hate for it to become rooted and cause long term emotional problems for them" them she may just go for it - at the risk of looking like a monster if she doesn't.

Why would she go along with anything containing the phrase 'parental alienation'?

'Showing signs of distress because of hostility between their parents' might be better?

'Showing signs of distress because of hostility between their parents' might be better?

Which neatly sets up the blame game; "I'm not the one who's hostile, it's all your fault". I agree, mentioning parental alienation is red rag to a bull, but the suggestion that she may be contributing to her DCs distress is likely to be equally as inflammatory.

One of the comments that sticks in my mind the most is when DH was trying to explain to his ex how distressed and upset the DSC were, and suggested some form of professional support for them - her response was simply that they were "fine when they were with her, so it must be his fault".
She was so focused on blaming DH that her DCs distress was unimportant to her. She didn't flinch or even react when her DCs distress was described to her by the SW, either, just reiterated that they were fine at home.
She has repeatedly insisted that the distress the DCs experience is easily solved by them not seeing DH. Resolving it while they maintain a relationship with him will never be on her agenda.

fine when they were with her, so it must be his fault
That is exactly what DH has had in the past - she blamed him for everything! Even when DSD was hurting exW's partners dog to the point that it bit her badly, she refused to admit that DSD was in any way distressed in her home. She also failed to take DSD to see a dr despite the bite being severe enough to still be very evident nearly a fortnight later when she visited us.

DH and I have been talking at length tonight about how we should move forwards with this. We have concluded that therapy would be counterproductive at the moment - exW would make it horrendous for everyone and it would make more problems for the DSC. We think that for now the best approach will be to remain constant, show as much love and security to the DSC and maintain a healthy line on what is acceptable behaviour - from the children AND the adults in this situation.
Thankfully we have their young age and their mother's selfish need for "me time" in our favour. She may have threatened to withhold access in the past, but she has the court order and her own selfishness to prevent her from actually doing it - for the time being at least. If we can maintain a strong contact well into their teens then we may have a chance.

I've just remembered - you said your next door neighbour has some experience in this area, both professionally and personally - would she be willing to act as a sort of surrogate grandma to your DSC? My DH never had any grandparents, they all died before he was born, but the old lady who lived next door was, to him, as good as a grandma, and he used to go to her whenever he was in trouble with his parents. I'm just thinking that, while you can't access therapy through the usual channels, it would still be beneficial for your DSC to have a relatively impartial (i.e. not a parent!) adult to talk to when they're feeling particularly torn/confused. I'm not suggesting she actually treat them - just be a listening ear for them, and maybe she can give them some gentle guidance on how to deal with the conflicting messages?

Just read this entire thread, you ladies are heroes and I am sure that every act of kindness you show your step-children is strengthening them.

mexicanspringtime thank you! I bloody well hope so

thumbwitch our neighbour is actually babysitting whilst I'm in hospital this week. DSC are fond of her and her partner so the foundations are there. My DS already uses their home as a stopping off point on the way home from school - he adores them! We are bloody lucky to have such lovely neighbours.

DSC are here this weekend. They have been acting up massively all day today and yesterday. I eventually sat them down (DH was out collecting my DS and the DSC had been sent to their rooms for trying to kill each other with a chair on the trampoline ) and asked why they were being quite so destructive (breaking things, trashing their rooms, fighting with each other) and they admitted to being told to "be as naughty as you like at daddy's house". DSD also said that her mother and stepfather have been saying "mean" things about them coming here and about DH, myself and my DS. Despite my rage I very calmly explained that what they had been told was very wrong. I used a playground analogy of saying mean things about friends who we were cross with to try an explain why mummy was saying it and also explained that they didn't have to feel sad about coming here just because mummy was so negative. I don't want to slate their mother (tempting though it is) so have gone down the route of "it wasn't fair to say that to you". I am absolutely livid with their bloody mother AND her partner for being so callous. They really are cruel. This after the partner bullying DSS about having a teddy - at 6.

It's so hard, isn't it, Asteria? DSC mum is openly vile about DH, I and our children. She has tried her best to really push her opinions on the children and tried drumming in to them that whatever she says is gospel and that DH is satan incarnate. When they get here it's so difficult to get them to open up and be themselves because of the drivel Mum has fed them about us all.

Some of the things she's said about us would make your toes curl and I'd love to call her on it but then I think I'd be playing right in to her hands. She'd only use it to her advantage with EA her children.

So sad to hear that, Asteria - and I hope that you've given the children a bit of understanding, although I also hope it doesn't come back and bite you. :(

Nothing wrong with having a teddy at 6 - how sad that anyone would think that. :(

Look on the bright side - at least they're still talking to you about what's going on, so they're not completely closed off from you.
There are a few things out there about combating parental alienation syndrome - your DSC might not be fully complicit in it yet, so it may be possible to stop it in its tracks, I don't know - this is one I was linked to by someone else for interest's sake www.breakthroughparenting.com/PAS.htm. It may have something of use in there for you/your DH, or it may not - but keep looking, if you have the chance.

Thank you for the link thumbwitch I will get DH to read it. I wish it was UK based though.
DH is quite an emotional person and as with any parent he finds it really tough to keep his frustration in line when the DSC are being monsters. I understand his anger at having to constantly moderate his interaction with his children to balance out the damage that their mother is doing. He can see that their bad behaviour stems from her indoctrination, but to be honest he still has a way to go before he is fully able to totally separate his frustration at her from his reaction to the behaviour she is creating.

DSD also said that her mother and stepfather have been saying "mean" things about them coming here and about DH, myself and my DS.

That's almost word for word what DSS said to DH one day when he was about 7 - he didn't like it when his mum said "mean" things about me and DD

It's one of the few times ex didn't completely wriggle out of responsibility - DH confronted her about it -saying that either DSS was lying, in which case, why was he trying to cause trouble between them, or DSS was telling the truth, and if so, why was she talking about me and DD at all?

Ex came up with a convoluted story DSS must have misunderstood a conversation he overheard between her and DSD, but she'd never be mean about WakeyCakey (She never did explain why she was talking about me in the first place!). DH managed to get her to agree to a set of counselling sessions for DSS on the back of that, but as I said up thread, she openly coached him, so they were worthless. Still, it was satisfying to know she'd squirmed - one of the few times she couldn't justify her disgraceful behaviour, even to herself!

DH's exW is the queen of wriggling out of things (like the rock she clearly sleeps under!) - she tells the most ludicrous lies, I would laugh if they weren't so damaging.
My lovely neighbour was saying the worst thing about dealing with a narc was that one had to almost become psychopathic to gain any ground. Having to constantly second guess her is exhausting, sadly I just think the worst and that is usually it!
We are making a diary of events - it helps us keep track so as not to get sucked into her gas lighting "no that didn't happen" ways. If the DSC come to us for answers in years to come then we have a way explaining what happened.