Emotional abuse of DSC's, again...

[Asteria]

DSS (6) and DSD (8) have a very tricky narcissistic mother (as I have mentioned in a previous thread) who is really pulling at them emotionally and making them miserable when they visit us. This has fluctuated over the last few years but is getting worse again.
Last weekend DSD was near hysterical before bed all three nights - on saturday night we were seriously worried about her as she has a complete freak out about nothing and it took 3 hours to calm her. When DH tried to find out why she said "it is really tricky for me" and then later told me that she would "make mummy sad" if she told me what was wrong. DSD did say that her mother was really sad and missed them when they were with us. During a recent phonecall to their mother, DSS refused to talk to their mother and whilst we were trying to coax him she said "don't you want to tell me how much you miss me - don't you want to tell me how much you love me" (DSC's always use speakerphone after she insisted on her end so she could hear DH's calls) and then proceeded to berate DH for not getting DSS to talk to her. This is pretty usual shit - it is just a few months since she has been so openly nasty.

It now turns out that the DSC's stepfather (ex W's partner) is threatening them with violence - in his words "we run a tight ship" and by all accounts he would never actually hit DSC's, but they have seen his children being smacked so the threat is even more real. DSS freaks out if he makes the smallest mistake and has told me on numerous occasions that he as come "this close" to being smacked. DH has made it very clear to this man that smacking and threats of are unacceptable, but that has made no difference.

DH and I are so worried that SS will just say it isn't bad enough - despite the serious emotional issues that both DSC's have already, that are worsening - and we are worried that the SS route will just make the ugly beast worsen!

That's awful Wakey. So very sad.

I feel for our part like it would have been easy to read the situation sometimes like things would be 'easier' for SD not to have us around. But I genuinely believe that it's our purpose to illustrate to SD an example of a functional household, where things are based on love and cuddles and talking and honesty, and where disrespect and shouting and hitting are not acceptable. If we don't show this calmly and in a repeatable manner SD will grow up like her mum thinking that behaviour is ok. She in turn will perpetrate it. So this DOES mean we will clash with mum as mum is telling her it's normal to shout and scream and tantrum even as an adult, even at people you love. I know that we present a safe happy place for SD and so even when OH was still under the abusive mind control of his ex and believing her that it would be better for him not to be involved I pushed him to realise that's not true, which we now see in evidence. It's all about building that trust and consistency.

I just think about what I wanted as a child. I wanted to have safe adults who I could believe in, that I knew confidently what their reaction would be to things and that I knew in my heart they would always love me no matter what. This basis will build a confident child. In fact research has shown that for any child if they have one adult in their life like this, it doesn't matter if they are a parent, grandparent, family friend, they will be psychologically more ok. I'm afraid if they don't that's when the exhibit the kinds of signs you are talking of Wakey. I know its hard for your OH but I just feel it's vital to keep trying no matter what. Little parts of the love you throw into the emotional pit get through. Its harder for us as the step parents in a way as we're not responsible and so I can see if a situation is just too abusive and it in effect then abusing you also you could need to pull back from that. It's different for dad as he IS responsible so he should carry on whatever.

For me in my situation I do it because SD shows me love. In the face of being told for years to hate me she just continues to show me unconditional love and so that's made me morally responsible for her little heart. It's made it worth dealing with a cow and I would crawl over hot coals for her, and she knows it, and I think that helps her be the strong little person she is. I will be completely honest if we didn't have this bond I simply wouldn't put myself through it and I wouldn't advise anyone else to. I hope your SS gets some help Wakey, kids deserve so much better don't they.

asteria because SS will only intervene if there is an immediate, significant risk to a DC. That is their job. They have too many cases of DCs who will die if they don't intervene to even begin to worry about emotional abuse cases.

Bloody hell Asteria :-( The eating thing is awful. It's a little different for us because it's not such open physical things, or at least from what we can define it's not. As I say SD is a quite brilliant actress, and if she works out what you are trying to find out, or what you want to hear, she will convincingly tell you that. I fear to say it may be we won't know many things until she is an adult, maybe even then.

One other thing we used was a mediation technique, there are various ones you can download etc. Because she is so happy in the day with us, it's only at night time that she will struggle as they come to the surface and she can't sleep, which only makes her more upset. The meditation has given her control of this, and in fact she enjoyed it so much she asked to use it in the day with dad a few times. I hope she will find it helpful at mums.

It disturbs me her feelings of worthlessness, helplessness. I worry about these things setting in and them talking those feelings to adulthood. I spend a lot of time trying to counter this, we spend a lot of time praising and being loving. We just are a loving family anyway, her dad is very demonstrative and has a huge amount of empathy and so we are lucky in this, but we do a lot of 'trust exercises' at the moment. We are letting her be fully in charge for example of road crossing, and don't fuss over her if she is going to help in the kitchen with carrying plates or cutting with knives. She is old enough she should be and in fact IS capable of doing these things but she needs to learn in her own mind she can and she must trust herself.

When I feel a happy thing I will make sure to take time to express it, and I use a lot of positive press. So we don't go for a long drive to grandma's, we go for 'an adventure'. We have the big car is 'the funbus'. I will say things like, daddy is such a kind man, he makes me feel happy. Daddy really looks after us. Or I'm so glad you're here, it really makes me smile when I see your face. We have such happy adventures together. Thanks for standing quietly when I had to sort that difficult thing in the shop, I know it was boring but you were completely brilliant and I really appreciate it.

I think at our core, not just kids, we all just want a cuddle and to hear we are special and make someone happy. It sounds like all these kids need hugs so much.

I don't doubt what you say Wakey. It's totally wrong of course because of course if these kids don't get the love these thoughts of self worthlessness and behaviour problems become a problem for society ultimately down the road. And truly it's the easy option to come to the house where the parent screams at the kid, openly hits them. (Not to say they shouldn't, of course they should). But the problem is that it's the kid where the parent is quietly hurting them, in ways that aren't so clear to see, mystery bruises and emotional abuse so that the child feels they're in the wrong so it truly never gets out and they are never told it's wrong. So the parent gets away with it. Or worse still then something happens and it's surprise all round from the neighbours and social services. I guess what I'm saying is it favours the lower IQ abuser being caught, the smart real sociopath can smile and wave it away, and they do.

I don't doubt for a second its a budget thing, they would help every child if they could. This is where I think we ended up saying to SD you have to talk to SOMEONE. We all talk to SOMEONE even adults, even if you call childline you talk to someone that's all that matters, or it all rattles round in your mind and makes you feel very bad.

I guess what I'm saying is it favours the lower IQ abuser being caught, the smart real sociopath can smile and wave it away, and they do.
The thing is - she really isn't smart at all! She is the volatile combination of low IQ and belligerent narcissist - the lies she tells are amazing and even when we are able to call her out with direct evidence she just ignores and takes another approach of attack or manipulation.

To a certain extent DH has also been a victim of the emotional abuse - he endured over a decade of her behaviour and when he finally called an end to it she ripped him to pieces through the divorce courts. I saw the papers and have never heard of such a vitriolic and underhand attack - his solicitor said that she had never experienced it at that level either. He can see what she is doing to the children but is so worn down by her that he has almost become resigned to having no control over it whatsoever outside of patching them up - especially after seeing how little the FC and SS can do.

She spills over into our relationship outside of the children too - be it attacking me directly or even sinking as low as to openly ridicule and attack my DS to the DSCs. They went to enormous pains to sabotage our wedding and more recently have refused to offer any flexibility whatsoever where our contact weekend clashes with me having surgery on my spine. This is for the second time too, even after we bent over backwards when she had a minor op!! I just find it amazing that a creature who to all intents and purposes is human, lacks all common empathy or humanity!!

asteria I've found it helps to think of her as unwell or suffering from some form of personality disorder and therefore she isn't capable of the empathy or humanity you expect. I have no expectations of DHs ex in terms of standards of behaviour, social conformity or even logic. I now just accept that whatever she throws our way is a result of the wiring in her brain - she believes in what she says/does, and it's not malicious or vicious.

I keep a private blog/diary to help cope with my feelings; it often contains phrases from Alice in Wonderland, which are a great analogy for some of the illogical and contradictory situations DHs ex creates.

I can relate to many of your experiences; my business has been sabotaged, and my DH did undergo counselling to help him come to terms with the abuse he suffered at the hands of his ex - it was something I actively supported to ensure that our own relationship was built on solid foundations.

We got married "secretly" some time ago - we recently renewed our vows in front of our friends, but timed it to ensure that DSS would not be exposed to his mums irrational rage. Sadly, neither of DHs DCs were present to share our day.

I really relate to the things both of you are describing, and that's a bit of a small relief in a way. It's hard to know what to do sometimes because people are just so aghast at the behaviour you just outpour a description and that's pretty much all that happens, they can't help with a suggestion as it's so not normal.

I completely agree with your comments about personality disorder. Everything you have described here is similar to what I've experienced. In her mind she is clearly the centre of the universe, and she simply doesn't understand if people don't rush to worship her, or if someone dare to say no on something. She views SD as an extension of her, and so the fact she views SD's dad contact as an inconvenience means she takes it as fact that SD views it that way also. In fact SD is very much like her father, and they are very close indeed and she needs him, she has behaviour problems if she doesn't see him for a few weeks.

I genuinely think his ex thinks she is parent of the year, in spite of her child never brushing her hair or teeth, wearing clothes which are far too big or small or full of holes, being late to everything, not having her homework done, constantly having nits, constantly being over-tired, hearing her screaming at her boyfriend in the house, trying to block her child seeing her own dad to the point she won't even comply with a court order, sobbing hysterically in front of her child, telling her child all these bizarre conspiracies. She honestly thinks she has reinvented parenting and is a victim of a terrible world plot against her, and the problem is with someone so convinced that they will pursue wrong behaviour with complete conviction, as she genuinely thinks what she is doing is morally right and the best thing for her child.

That's where we know we just will never win, because if she simply doesn't understand it's not ok to scream at people, and that her child comes first not her, what can you do with that. I have heard the same thing, her simply refusing to accept a fact placed right in front of her, dismissing it, and that lack of grip of reality you are just stuck with. We regard it as a sentence getting to the end of SD being a child and thus having to deal with this hideous twisted person, honestly that's how it is. Nothing positive comes from her she is just something we have to deal with that makes everyday happy situations hard and sad. My biggest sadness of all is that I can see she will push away her own child and that's pretty awful.

She honestly thinks she has reinvented parenting and is a victim of a terrible world plot against her, and the problem is with someone so convinced that they will pursue wrong behaviour with complete conviction, as she genuinely thinks what she is doing is morally right and the best thing for her child.

An absolutely perfect description! Evidenced by DHs ex when she was Court Ordered to attend the SPIP, and told the Magistrates she didn't agree that she needed it.
When you are dealing with someone who believes the "process" and "rules" are wrong, and don't apply to them, then no matter how many court orders, parenting courses, or support workers are put in place, the end result is that nothing changes.
DSS was seen by the Family GP and diagnosed with anxiety - but the GP wouldn't refer him to CAMHS because he said that DSS would only benefit if his mum supported it. The GP was not prepared to "waste resources" on DSS

We live next door to an amazing retired nurse. She has seen it all and we often spend evenings drinking and putting the world right. The one thing I have learnt from her is that damage limitation is the only way forward with people who have personality disorders. There is no way we will ever change DH's ex, but if we let we feel like she is winning then she is much easier to deal with - and far less vicious with the children as a consequence. This does mean that we have to compromise a lot - but the thing is, oven if we resist her outlandish requests, the outcome is usually the same! There is no point incurring wrath along the way.
It would be nice so turn around and say "No, you cannot behave this way, it is unacceptable" but the trouble is she is so deeply convinced that whatever she says or does is totally right and justified so we would be wasting our breath!

I was catching up with an old friend of mine recently and since we last saw each other she's qualified as a social worker, and begun work in the local Children's Services dept.
She said she's been horrified at how many of her colleagues close cases because they, in her words, " believe the mother without question or doubt".
She knows the issues we've had with the DSC and is fully aware that mothers are adept at concealing their own abuse of their children - she says that it's the "old school" social workers who haven't been trained in those aspects of Social Work.
The good news is that gradually, they'll retire and more recently qualified social workers should be more open to the possibility that DCs are being abused at the hands of their mothers.
Too late for our DSC, but maybe, eventually, the cycle will be broken?

I do hope so! DH had a Mckenzie Friend helping him when he took his ex to court - she is campaigning for more justice in the family courts. Everyone in there (her barrister included) knew that his ex was feeding the court a pack of (quite staggering) lies - but with no immediate physical evidence, she was able to stick her fingers up to everyone.
I just find it amazing that simply pushing a child out of her vagina qualifies a woman to call herself a great mother and abuse with total immunity.

Going back a way up the thread, you said that you've been saying "I'm sure your mum didn't mean it like that" or similar - and you've already said you think you need to stop this - I agree entirely. I think if she's displaying emotionally abusive and manipulative behaviour, you trying to excuse it, or seeming like you're "taking her side" as another adult, is likely to contribute to them shutting down when talking to all adults. It's possible they've said something to teachers at school and had the same reaction as well - and come to the sorry conclusion that the adults just all agree with each other. :(

I totally agree with you Thumbwitch. We are trying to either pass no comment on minor things and make it very clear that the bigger stuff is not right - but then we have to tread carefully and only call the behaviour into question rather than the person. We don't want to be constantly down on their mother as it will just make them feel they have to divide their loyalties and withdraw more. It is hard enough already without them feeling even more pulled between us.

We don't want to be constantly down on their mother as it will just make them feel they have to divide their loyalties and withdraw more.

It might be unavoidable even if you are positive about her. One of the "reasons" that DSS eventually rejected me is because I used to tell him that no matter what his mum said about his dad (when he was repeating it to us) his mum and dad used to love each other very much.

He knew subconsciously that was probably true, but it contradicted his mums behaviour so much, that he didn't want to be reminded of it as it created to many unanswered questions about his mum and her behaviour in his head.

How on earth can we prevent the alienation being pushed further though? I suppose being as warm and as loving as possible, whilst maintaining a firm line on acceptable behaviour will work out best for the DSC in the long run, but in the short term it will confuse them so much.

How on earth can we prevent the alienation being pushed further though?

We can't.

I know it sounds defeatist, but when a parent is set upon this particular course, either because they believe it is right, or because they hate their ex more then they love their DCs, then there is very little that can be done.

Accept the DCs will be damaged, be there for them (Karen Woodall describes it as waiting at the end of a dark tunnel for them to emerge) and keep well and healthy so you can be the positive influence in the DCs life when they are ready. But remember, they may never be.

I know it sounds defeatist, but when a parent is set upon this particular course, either because they believe it is right, or because they hate their ex more then they love their DCs, then there is very little that can be done.

That does sound pretty defeatist Wakey, yes.

That does sound pretty defeatist Wakey, yes.

Initially, I hated the advice being given to DH, but the more I read, the more I realised that all the experts in alienation and implacable hostility say a similar thing - which is that sometimes, the only course of action is for the alienated parent to step back and wait.

If it was contested amongst the various professionals, I'm sure I'd be holding on to any last shred of hope - but it's an accepted outcome in the field, unfortunately - despite being robustly challenged by well meaning by standers.

WakeyCakey I had a proper trawl through the Karen Woodall blog and will get DH to read through the cut and paste edit I have constructed for him. He finds it very difficult reading through vast swathes of information - especially when it provokes an emotional reaction. I think that we are heading into the alienated child area with the DSC, from a lot of the language they both use, so I am going to encourage DH to employ the empathic responses towards them. I don't expect that this will be easy for him as he is still holding a lot of bitterness and hurt. Hopefully I can help him by filling the gaps till he is fully emotionally capable.
It was rather sad reading the process of alienation from the child's point of view - I recognised so much of my own experiences and the way that I responded to my parents within it. At least I can have a truly empathic approach to the DSC as I have actually experienced what they are going through. Past conversations with DSD, who is clearly going through the stage of rejecting her father at the moment, have been tricky and I have been hesitant about saying too much on the subject - but she is aware that my parents divorced when I was her age.
One interesting note to make though - Karen Woodall mentions working with CAFCASS and them becoming more enlightened on the subject of parental alienation. When DH was in court he was advised against mentioning parental alienation as it would "piss off" the court and CAFCASS... I still don't understand why they are so negative?

Initially, I hated the advice being given to DH, but the more I read, the more I realised that all the experts in alienation and implacable hostility say a similar thing - which is that sometimes, the only course of action is for the alienated parent to step back and wait.

If it was contested amongst the various professionals, I'm sure I'd be holding on to any last shred of hope - but it's an accepted outcome in the field, unfortunately - despite being robustly challenged by well meaning by standers.

I imagine it is quite a stark prognosis to receive.

Possibly best left (where appropriate) to trained therapists who have fully and accurately assessed the whole family and can offer professional, ongoing therapeutic support?

OP there is nothing to stop you seeking family therapy alongside the court process. Maybe your DH would also find that easier to handle than printed information. Obviously if the SDC could also attend, it could be very positive for them to have that input. Is it a possibility?

Possibly best left (where appropriate) to trained therapists who have fully and accurately assessed the whole family and can offer professional, ongoing therapeutic support?

The nature of implacable hostility is that engagement in therapy, particularly for the child, is rarely possible.

Professional Advice to alienated parents is often given in the absence of the child - who will undoubtedly reject the parent further if therapy is engaged in against the wishes of the hostile parent.

As I've said up thread, limited NHS resources are not made available to DCs who are identified as needing the intervention if the hostile parent makes it clear that they will refuse to engage.

When DH was in court he was advised against mentioning parental alienation as it would "piss off" the court and CAFCASS... I still don't understand why they are so negative?

Because it's still a "new" phenomenon and it will take many years for it to be accepted by society as a whole.

Just like the community here on MN, different judges, magistrates and social workers are at different stages in the process of accepting this type of abuse.

But OP and her DH could seek therapy and get a trained view on their circumstances.

But OP and her DH could seek therapy and get a trained view on their circumstances.

I agree - although the cost may be a prohibiting factor.