Shite. DSD won't get to come with us at Christmas holidays. :-(

[ProbablyJustGas]

DH has asked his ex to consider letting us take DSD with us for a week to visit my family in America over the next New Year holidays, with DSD spending Christmas, Boxing Day, the 27th and the leadup to these holidays with exW. We would fly back from America in time for DSD to recover from jet lag and return to school on time. Although exW sounded warm to the idea at first tonight, she has since texted DH to say she's reconsidered and would rather not let DSD go at all.

I am so disappointed. I don't get the chance to visit my family that often, and they have really taken to DSD and she to them. She will be allowed to see them during other school vacation periods, so I will work with that, but my folks consider DSD their first grandkid, and they were really hoping to see her at the holidays too.

DH is very supportive of me, and has already said that if we have to, we'll try to spend some time over Christmas with DSD and then go visit my fam on our own, but .... argh. I understand that no matter how much love, affection and effort I give to this child, she's not mine. But it won't be the same. Shite. :(

Swed, surely you can see how when you said "the OP's DH [...] moved out from his (now ex) wife and child little over a year ago." other posters might naively have assumed that you thought that the OP's DH had moved out, and that you thought this had happened a little over a year ago?

If compassion for a mother is valid, how come similar compassion isn't equally relevant for a father ?

Typically, where most resident parents are mothers, and most non-resident parents are fathers, many men might already be considered to get something of a "raw deal" simply because they don't see their children as often as they'd like. For responsible, loving fathers, special occasions like birthdays, Father's Day and Christmas can be just as eagerly anticipated, with just as much emotional investment placed on them as a mother might also do.

So why does the mother's "need" trump the father's ? ...... and why should the mother's (or father's for that matter) need given greater weight than what's best overall for the child ? Whether or not - in this particular case - it's sensible, practical and/or achievable for a 6 year old to go to the US for this trip should be what all the adults concerned have to think about ...... and not whether they, as individuals, might feel "upset" or "sad" or whatever as a result of the child taking the trip. If there's genuine reason(s) why it's not a good idea for her to go then that's one thing, but a parent's personal angst shouldn't come into it.

In years of seeking out step family advice and support, I've come across this type of scenario again and again, and indeed, there does seem to be a school of thought which demands the mother's (usually) feelings be placed above all else. Heaven forbid she might be left "alone" at Christmas (though, if I've read correctly, this particular mother will be enjoying her daughter's company on the special days of Xmas Eve, Day & Boxing Day). However, if the father's left "alone" at Christmas, that doesn't matter. From a personal perspective, my DP has never seen his children on Xmas Day once in 12 years .... apart from the year his ex had a boyfriend and wanted to go away with him, which, I think tells you all you need to know about how she views the children as possessions/weapons. All pleas to take it in turns are immediately dismissed with a succinct no, no discussion, no explanation. (BTW, his ex has a large family so would never be literally alone). I can tell you now that my DP has been terribly upset as yet another year passes without him being able to share in the whole "magic" of Christmas aspect and of course that childish belief (in Santa coming down the chimney etc) has long since passed. So why should his feelings, and those of other men in a similar position be so quickly pooh-poohed in favour of the mother ? (who, in our case, and in many others I've read about, is playing games and using the occasion to inflict hurt).

catsmother - this thread is about a stepmother and a mother; the father hasn't appeared on it! Fathers have just the same rights as mothers. Stepmothers and stepfathers do not have the same rights (or responsibilities) as biological parents.

I was hoping you would come and post catsmother

The voice of reason

This thread begins "DH has asked his ex to consider letting us take DSD with us for a week".

The issue in hand ... the ex's refusal of this request ... is what matters, not the author of the thread.

If the OP's DH came onto the thread and stated, that yes, he's disappointed/saddened/angry/distraught/frustrated or whatever at not being "allowed" (because obviously a child belongs to the mother ) to spend a few days with his child over the festive season, would that suddenly alter your stance ? Would you then stop talking about "compassion" for the mother (for heaven's sake, no-one's died) and perhaps consider that some "compassion's" due for the father too ?

I should bloody well hope that the DH and not the SM is doing the talking. The disappointment expressed in the OP is that of the SM. She has no right to that disappointment.

The disappointment expressed in the OP is that of the SM. She has no right to that disappointment.

LOL! The ultimate in step-parent powerlessness - SM don't even have a right to our own emotions and feelings.

If achieving a harmonious blended family (like yours, Bonsoir) requires me to place expectations and restrictions on the emotions felt by the people I love, then I'll live with the chaos, I think.

Well, I'd disagree with that. If you're a committed stepmother - as the OP sounds to be - who's putting every effort into being kind, welcoming and unbiased to her SD (which, speaking as someone who's own child is also a stepchild, you'd hope their stepmother to be like) - then she's bound to be disappointed if she can't join the rest of them on this trip. I don't suppose the OP has a button she can press to switch her feelings on and off ..... and when you've invested a lot of time, effort and understanding into getting to know anyone, let alone a small child who'll be pretty dependent on you and for whom you feel some sense of responsibility for when they're in your home, you'd be rather hard hearted not to get to like them (hopefully), and to want to spend fun times with them.

However .... if we accept your assertion that stepmothers have no right to feel any disappointment in relation to their stepchildren (in that case, stepmothers should maintain a definite distance from their SCs, never doing anything for them, never interacting - just in case, shock horror, they form some sort of attachment ...... and can you just imagine the total furore should such a stance be mooted on most parts of the MN board ?), then can you not at least even consider, for a second, that tied up with this SM's own personal feelings, is almost certainly a significant sense of disappointment on her husband's behalf ? .... which is pretty natural in most relationships if you feel your partner is being done an injustice. If, like me, the OP has ever had to deal with an absolutely distraught man (repeatedly) because yet again contact has been obstructed in some way, then damn right she has every reason to feel a bit miffed (understatement) about the situation.

ARF @ She has no right to dissapointment

Bonsoir I'm sorry but that is utter bullshit.

Catsmother: you are wrong. Bio dads are just as important. Here is a post of mine from another thread, posted BEFORE your assertion that we don't treat bio dads the same as bio mums.

Add message | Report | Message poster Swed Fri 23-Mar-12 09:39:23
Chelen - I'm not a step-mother, no.

NotADisneyMum - I am a mother to 4 children. We've lived v happily in a step household for nigh on 10 years. I don't restrict and limit my DH's relationship with his DSSs but right from the beginning I was v v clear about certain things. For example, I told him he must never discipline my sons. It works v well apart from occasionally it's been frustrating (for me only) because it's exhausting parenting alone. But those feelings of frustration are preferable to a potential loss of trust and/or hostility between DH and my two elder sons. Their relationship is pure and uncomplicated and not confined to fufilling predefined roles. DH has spent more time living with them than their own dad, but he is not their dad, he will never be their dad. He plays tennis with them, he mends their bikes, he teaches them about the solar system, he helps them with their homework, he cooks for them, he pays their school fees but he does not go to parents' evening at school or do anything else that might be in any way hurtful to the boys' bio father, my ex husband. My ex husband doesn't come to parents' evening either by the way because he is v busy. I'm certain my sons view their stepdad as a v positive and enriching influence on their lives. We've been v careful to leave space for my ex to fulfil his role as dad, even when he doesn't fill that space.

The bio mother of the DSD in the OP may have family arrangements of her own that she was squeezing in to her half of that second week of Christmas hols. She may be pregnant and due around Christmas and not want her daughter to be absent at a delicate time. She may be ill. Her parents may be ill.

I think if you're a step family, you have to assume all the adults are acting in he best interests of the child and if one party objects to something you have to respect that and assume they have good reasons, even though they may not be known to you.

Huh ? .... think we're talking at cross purposes here Swed.

The gist of my admittedly rather long posts was that Bonsoir (and maybe others ? don't know, have skimmed thread) suggested that "compassion" should be shown towards mothers at Xmas time in regard to how they'd miss their child(ren) should they spend time with the father. I was trying to point out that if a mother's upset in that scenario is valid, then a father's "upset" should also be considered in exactly the same way. And that overriding everything, should - in an ideal world - be sensible consideration of what's best for the child ..... that one or other parent getting "upset" shouldn't stand in the way of something which would otherwise be beneficial to the child, and that that isn't a valid reason for refusing a suggestion on its own. That's all.

"I think if you're a step family, you have to assume all the adults are acting in he best interests of the child and if one party objects to something you have to respect that and assume they have good reasons, even though they may not be known to you."

This is very idealistic Swed. Thankfully, this is pretty much what was assumed between my ex and I in relation to arrangements for our child - but then neither of us played games, lied (both to each other or to our child), used our child as a weapon, or did anything else contentious. It's a whole different ball game however when dealing with a "difficult" ex who's shown, by their behaviour, time and time again, that they don't have the child's best interests at heart and will persue their own agenda no matter what causing all sorts of mayhem. To go back to my own situation, whenever my ex and I had cause to alter contact arrangements we showed each other the courtesy of actually discussing it with plenty of notice, and an open mind. Despite being the resident parent I'd never have dreamt of telling my ex that he couldn't see our child for x weeks and that "I don't have to explain myself to you - fuck off" ... which is what my partner has heard on countless occasions. Ditto, long "agreed" holidays being cancelled literally the day before - at a cost to us of 100s of pounds "because I said so, and no, I don't have to explain myself to you" etc etc. I absolutely refuse to accept that my SC's mother has always acted in their best interests - her behaviour, and two very damaged kids confirms that. Maybe I'd be less sceptical if she'd ever shown any sign of normal manners and explained her often seemingly cruel and barmy decisions/behaviour to DP, but she never has. To not share the "good reasons" for your objections/obstruction of contact time with the child's other parent is damned rude - in my opinion it's absolutely foul behaviour and treats the non resident parent with total contempt. The only reasons I can think of where a RP would be justified in being so rude/obstructive would be ones where the involvement of social services and/or the police are required - and that's certainly not been the case for us.

Catsmother - sorry. My speed reading is poor. THe DH sounds as though he's Accepted it: he said he'll spend time with the daughter over Xmas then thy can go to the US on their own. I don't honestly see the big problem for OP.

Anyway, must do work, must do work.

Back to my own case, if we'd "respected" DP's ex's "objections" and had assumed she had "good reasons", even though we didn't know what they were, then DP would NEVER have seen his children and would NOT have any sort of relationship with them. He has had to fight tooth and nail to get what he does has at great cost (literal and emotional).

If all NRPs accepted that notion Swed, then a great many of them wouldn't see their kids at all - ever. DP's ex used to insist she thought DP was a crap dad blah blah blah and that he didn't "deserve" to see them etc. A significant minority of RPs feel the same way unfortunately ..... are RPs affected like this just supposed to blithely give up on their kids because it's to be assumed "all adults" in a step situation are acting in the "best interests" of the child ?

Catsmother Agree it is idealistic. But it has worked well for me. But I think you have to at least start the process with good intentions and the assumptions outlined above. If you start questioning people's parenting decisions over often petty nonsense, the donward spiral is likely to be swift and steep with much pain, stress and ugliness for everyone involved. It is I much easier or everyone if you assume goodness.

Some people are beyond all reason. But most people are reasonable and do have their children's best interests at heart.

Even the most arch among us respond well to a little kindness.

Round of applause for Catsmother.
Exactly what I would have said but put so much better!

Catsmother u clearly are the voice of reason! Thank god u posted. Ive read most of this post with my head in my hands. My situations is fraught with ExW using DC as a weapon every time. Bonsoir is IMO wrong on her views as she believe punishing the father every time is the right course of action. Her situation may be a bad one that leads her to believe all dads are disneydads n not worth bothering with! If thats the case i feel for her. I'm minded to say that as our DSC are getting older they despair with their mother for stopping access and enforcing strange rules so as to hurt their dad. They clearly see what's she's doing and have said on many occasions they "don't like her" for it. One thing is apparent. When they get old enough they will vote with their feet. I know my DSC will end up living with us and I frankly can't wait. They rock my world they're awesome little people. I love them as if they were my own (i have no DCs) and am so chuffed they love me in return. My SM status doesn't change my love for them. In my world they come first every time. SMs have a rough ride as like anything, there are those out there that don't do right by the kids but there are many that clearly get it right. I hope OP takes from these comments that it's ok to feel sad that she won't get her holiday with her DSD but, and this is the most important but, time will throw up other situations and she will have years ahead to have other holidays that will include DSD so fret not. Put it down to experience and walk forward. Like I said before ur heart is in the right place and for that I 'tip my hat' to u. :)

"Bonsoir is IMO wrong on her views as she believe punishing the father every time is the right course of action. Her situation may be a bad one that leads her to believe all dads are disneydads n not worth bothering with!"

There is absolutely no way of drawing this conclusion from anything I have written. Where did this thread start become about fathers? It isn't.

Sorry but that's what I've drawn from it! U seem to favour the mother as more important to the father. In my book mums and dads are both as important to a child. Neither one is more important than the other. The best interests of the kids should paramount every time. I'm very black and white on that one.

You are so many millions miles off the mark - have you read the thread?

Yes and I don't agree with ur comments. U don't have to agree with mine. Fair and simple really.

Well said Catsmother!!

If the child were simply spending second half of the school holidays with Dad at home in the UK, would it be an issue for the mother?

I dare say it's the fact that Dad and OP want to take her to be with OP's family. And doing something nice together. That's what the mother cannot bear (if she's anything like my DH's ex). And whoever says that most people are reasonable and try to do the right thing by the child.... LOL!!
Sorry havent read ALL the thread but the mother is WAY out of order for refusing to "ALLOW" the Dad. That beggars belief...

Ladydeedy u've susinctly hit the nails on the head! I agree with u. It's the old "control" issue again and nothing to do with the child's best interests!