Mail on Sunday Magazine

[lottiejenkins]

I found this article today..........I thought it was very moving,,,, what a decision that lady made... dont think i could do it though!
www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/you/article.html?in_article_id=522925&in_page_id=1908

or is it that those that hold those opinions are actually the vegetables? .

just smack their heads against a wall? I think I'm hormonal....

its cos poeple think looks/money/material acheivements = human worth. Gawds, we get enough Xenia types seeeing no worth in what she calls the lower orders so people see the disabled as less than human.
No idea how to change it

but disability is not class specific. although I guess if you're loaded you can afford to hire the carers you need/pay for the appointments/the therapy/the adaptations/the specialist equipment you need.

And if you're well connected you can always write a book

I don;t know that you can change it. I think it's very deep rooted. Look at how many people on seeing a programme about a family with a disabled child will focus on the effect it 'must' be having on the NT siblings. They really don't understand that in a family the disabled kid is every bit as important as the non disabled siblings. (and the fact that some effects are good is also ignored).

I lost my first child to late miscarrage/stillbirth. Destraught and still in hospital I asked my DH to throw away the things for her. Wisely he boxed things up and hid them. Later I was glad they were not destroyed and there were tangible reminders hidden away. It was't that I didn't love her but that I could not bear her loss.
I see the rather bizarre act of throwing away Immies things not necessarily as callous but the act possibly of madened grief. Our experiences affect our interpretation of others acts we dont comprehend, so I could be wrong of course.

I wonder. I thought it was more a way of making sure they didn't change their mind. I think there has to be a difference between your sort of situation and one where someone has made a choice iyswim.

There is a post on Tania's blog in reaction to India and also indirectly this thread

behindthechild.blogspot.com/2008/03/breaking-point.html

Wow Tania is a really wonderful person. what respect and loyality she shows to the childs family. really amazing.
you know what is getting on my nerves is the amount of people who seem to be saying they know best. that this is the "good" way to deal with thia and how very dare anyone suggest otherwise.
I have had 13 years so far of caring. it will be my job efor as long as I can do it. and I hope with help that will be for the rest of my life.
So I will ignore the do gooders who think it is "brave" to give up and carry on being my dd's mum.

Ok, just seen 2shoes note to join the thread. i have read the initial link.

My opinion so far is that she couldn't cope with a severly disabled child. there is no shame in that.
All of us here know how difficult it is to care for children with varuing difficulties and i am sure there have been times when the thought may have crossed our minds...however fleetingly.
I certainly have, i am ashamed to admit it but there you go. I have said it.

I do not advocate the way in which she dealt with her decision to 'abandon' Immie but i imagine once she had reached that decision she maybe couldn't face her for a while.

Anyway, 2shoes has asked me for my input as an SW over a question of whether SS should have been involved with "the other children" so i am off to try and wade through teh thread to see if i can find what she means.

unless anyone wishes to update me a little quicker?

'omg, omg. shocked does not describe how I feel after reading that comment dgeorgea you have lost all my respect.
if you think dumping a baby because it doesn't fit in to your lifestyle fine.
you have a right to an opion and so do I.
as for flaming. For most people on this thread this is a subject very close to home. a lot of us have been in that place.'

2shoes, if I have lost your respect I regret that.

Yes my choice of words was harsh, she was basicly told the parts of the brain which deal with breathing and 'existing' was there, the rest was destroyed. While I don't agree with my choice of words it was what she was realy being told.

Imi does respond to stimuli, and I would not bet against most if not all the parents on here would have similar stories about their children.

Any decision concerning children to one degree or another is a lifestyle choice. This was not a mother who was coping who suddenly decided that having a disabled child was the wrong kind of accessory for her lifestyle choices and just got rid of it. Nor would I condone or try to defend any person who made a choice based on that scenario, but I don't believe that is what happened with Julia.

I do appreciate that this is very close to some of the members here, and do appologise if I caused offence. All I can realy say is that this is not how I view such children, but rather is one interpretation of what Julia was being told.

I can't understand how anyone who protects a child can be doing 'the wrong thing'. That's what Julia Holander has done, that's also what Tania is doing, protecting a child. What seems even better to me is that they can do it together, 2 mums for Imi. Juia's other two girls are now getting the time and energy that they need, time and energy which Julia would not have if she were looking after all 3 girls, posibly alone, so they are gaining too.

"But I do wonder if Ms Hollander would and whether her NT daughters wonder the same thing."

Needmorecoffee,

I don't know the answer to the last question. I would hope that there would be a fundamental difference. From all I've read it does seem Julia never truly bonded with Imi, I think that can be seen on how others have reported the way she speaks of Imi. I think it is fairly obvious she has had difficulty seing beyond the disability. With a child she has bonded to who knows.

Isn't that what people on this thread are objecting to in this particular case? It's a matter of sheer luck that Imi found her way to Tania, the mother simply 'dumped' her. The lauding of her "brave" decision to do so, after just five months, is what is so abhorrent.

Turquoise,

I don't know, I am accused of being un-understanding of members here, but you say it is because she 'abandoned' Imi, Yurt1 says it is because she has chosen to write a book on it.

To your first question, no. Julia has remained in Imi's life and those who have seen the two interact have spoken about the obvious love and connection that is there from Julia. At present Imi is in foster care so theoretically there is always the possibility that the time may come when Julia and her family may be willing to take on the full time care for Imi.

The example I gave was where families literally dumped children like Imi into institutions then no longer had any dealings with them.

Regardless of Immy's disabilities, regardless of whether he mother felt she could/couldn't care for her, regardless of your own feelings on disability and whether you could cope with a child with disability, that description is sickening and unforgiveable.

I will repeat, this is not my view of severely disabled children. It is an interpretation of what the mum was being told. And yes it is sickening and unforgiveable.

As Yurt says it is a view that seems to be held by some 'professionals'.

Yes my interpretation was taken to the extreme, but again look at the posts complaining about how Julia speaks about her own daughter.

I for one would not speak about my daughter as an animal, though might use the term 'children like her' but would never do so in negative terms. She was not coping and was definately having problems seeing beyond the disability and those talking to her at the time did not seem to be doing much to tackle these problems and indeed were probably adding to them.

Regardless, degeorgeo, Ms Hollander is still profitering from her child. How much of the profits from the book and articles will Imi see?

er no that's not what I said - the book is one thing - that I find odd.

My real objection is that Immie was dumped before Tania was on the scene. They threw all her stuff out before they'd even met Tania. Julia did not make the decision that Immie would be better off with Tania. She made the decision to leave her in hospital then (very luckily- and perhaps quite unusually, I don't know) Tania was brought in. What if Tania had been 'full' caring for another profoundly disabled child? What if there was no Tania?

The scenario Teresa describes has happened but through accident, not design. Certainly not through any design of Julia's.

I wonder whether she would have taken Immie back if there had been no Tania option? I doubt it tbh - because chukcing her stuff out made it so final. The book might have been harder to write then.

Here is India Kinghts column,,,,,,,,,
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/india_knight/article3511898.ece

good piece. I've commented but it's not there yet.

I'm getting sick of all this "immie is better off with Tania- Julia was brave to recognise that'. TANIA WASN"T THERE WHEN THEY WERE DRIVING HER STUFF TO THE DUMP

I feel sorry for Julia in that I think she's missed out big time. I feel sorry for her that she still seems to view her daughter as sub-human.

But like fio I'm disgusted that so many people out there do think that profoundly disabled children are less valid than "normal" ones.

much is made of the affect all this (keepping baby) would have on the sibling. I am very tempted to ask ds to post. he would put that right in its place.
a child like IMMY would not be a danger to other children so the only reason I can think is it made life "easier" I will ask ds for his take on it.

well I asked ds who is 16. I explained the situation(unbiased)
his answer was short and sweet
" it is obviously not the kid who has the brain problem"
I asked him how he thought the older child would feel in the future.
he said " hate for the parents"
I have cleaned this up and removed swearing as his disgust was very obvious.

Dgeorgea, I think Yurt's reply answers your question to me more clearly than I obviously managed to put it. I'll try again but I'm not very erudite.

It is the fact that she didn't care what happened to Immie at the time of abandonment (I call leaving her in hospital, obliterating her from their lives abandonment regardless of Tania and what came later) because clearly she did, and still does, view Immie as less than human. It is that continuing view, being reinforced by this book and the media applause that is so utterly sickening.

I feel uncomfortable on this thread and will butt out now, but this story (or more particularly, the general reaction to JH as brave) has really disturbed me.

Good India Knight article, thank God.