Please help me to help my ds.. I don't know what's wrong!

[essbee]

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Hi there you :)
Having met your DS, I know from what I have seen that he communicates well, is polite (in my minor experience of him) and very funny and sweet!
I also know of the many issues you have had with him and your upsetting relationship breakdown.
The being ignored is not all that unusual IMHO with any kids but esp boys, who knows why it just sometimes is.
Much of what you describe sounds like attention seeking behaviour, some kind of childish affirmation,good or bad perhaps?
Knowing you a little I think you are a tremendous person, you have an aura of goodness, sorry that prob sounds like pavlova waffle...
If your instinct leads you to think that it is something more, then do ask someone for a referral to a child psych or behavioural expert for some confirmation, to set your mind at ease. As a mum you know best!
Love
Piff

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if it makes you feel better I'm a bit drunk LOL
Good luck essbee xx

If he's having problems at school too then it may be worth getting the Ed.Psych involved - even if only to put your mind at rest. I'm presuming that he'll have a different teacher when he goes back to school but what did his last teacher say he/she thought the problem (if any) might be?

I have to agree with the others that maybe he is testing to see how you react to his misbehaviour and that no matter how bad he is you wont leave him or love him any less. I am sure that he has been affected in some way by what happened between you, his father and himself before. I would seek help from the Ed phyc, maybe he needs that helping hand to get him out of the cycle he has found himself in? I wish i could be of more help honey. I hope all sorts itself out for you both soon.

Love Debbie xxxx

essbee, I just don't know the answer to this one, as I have never met your son. I think if you have a gut feeling that something is not quite right, you should go with that. It could be that OK your son's behaviour is not quite 'normal' but is not far enough away from 'normal' to merit a diagnosis/label (whatever you want to call it). TBH I think that's the case with both of my sons at times.

Taking the impulsive, not concentrating, flitting from one thing to another behaviour: my oldest son did this, nothing kept his concentration for long at nursery and the first few years of school. To give an example, at age 6 he used to persistently wander around the classroom when everyone was meant to be working. It was a recognised problem and he needed extra support from the school. His concentration improved as he got older. Learning to read well helped, as that meant he could get immersed in books, follow instructions on his gameboy, etc. So after the age of 7 his concentration, VERY slowly began to improve. Now aged 10 years, lack of concentrtion is not an issue at school or home, though he's still not that motivated where work is concerned. Still that's more a boy thing.

As for not listening to instructions and completely ignoring you: my oldest son did this, but the real master of this is my youngest son. It was a problem at his nursery and for a while really worried the staff there. They also told me his extreme liveliness was 'beyond the normal spectrum'. They began to talk to him, face to face, looking him in the eye. It helped. But even so, I was really worried that my son persistantly refused to answer simple questions I asked him. ie he would never tell me his age (4). Totally ignored me. But recently he turned 5 and now will proclaim his age loud and clear. Told me he didn't like being 4 (the youngest in his class). I still am not entirely sure he is totally 'normal' but so far the school feel he is 'normal'.

Two things to bear in mind.

Regarding my oldest son, his school's SENCO and the other teachers said that it was obvious that my oldest son was choosing to behave badly when he did. At other times he could behave well. The fact that he was choosing meant he did not have a problem. I think it's a bit more complicated than that, but if you speak to an Ed psych you can go through this. You say your son is ok for some of the time - and piffle obviously thinks so too :)

Secondly, any modification of behaviour for my sons has taken ages - years. I really believe that my oldest son simply grew out certain behavior - being willing and able to concentrate is partly IMO a question of maturity.

anyway that's my 2p's worth. I think you need some advice from people who have children with some sort of recognised behaviour problem - hope you get some good answers here.

I have to agree that as his Mum should seek help if you think something isn't quite right. My ds who is nearly 7 is ADHD/AS and did the wandering around the classroom thing at 4 and 5 - and a whole lot more severe behaviour - and then was diagnosed that same year.

His behaviour does go from good to bad in the blink of an eye and like your ds, can be as sweet and polite to other people when he feels like it...infact almost old fashioned polite (he will shake a man's hand, and he used to kiss the back of a woman's hand) I've said before that I am sure some of my friends think I make the bad behaviour up, but they haven't seen him in action!

If ignoring was an Olympic event, he would win gold...he is excellent at it. However, my NT nephew is also pretty good too, and agree it is more a boy thing.

Have you ever tried keeping him to a routine? Would he just pick up a fork and throw it cos he is bored or is it more like he wants a reaction out of you and attention from other people?

I am not saying he is ADHD or AS at all, but there does seem to be similarities. My ds is currently on medication and sees a psychologist and soon will be seeing a psychiatrist because of his violent behaviour toward me (he attacked me 3 times in the last 2 weeks). My ds's self esteem is virtually non-existent and this in itself is a problem. I am sure things will be alot better when we build up his self esteem...at least I hope so.
There is a questionnaire which I did with his consultant which diagnosed AS, and although it is just a guideline, they do use it to help with the diagnosis. If you are interested, I will find out what it is called.

Good luck with this - with all the history, you have a lot on your plate (similar story to me and ds), but with the right help, I am sure you will be able to help him be happy. x

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Not had time to read all the threads but I would be concerned but not be in a hurry to label your son. My ds has autism and he would definately scrape the table (one of his favourite activities) BUT of course this is just one little thing and doesn't point to autism of course. To me it does sound like your ds is most likely attention seeking. My friend's boy who is 3.9 behaves really badly. Will deliberately break things if out in a cafe for instance because he is jealous of his twin brothers who arrived 9 months ago. I was quite shocked when I saw his behaviour. But I knew the difference between him being deliberatley bad and my ds who genuinely doesn't seem to have a clue that he has done aything wrong. He is 5 BTW and flooded the bathroom this morning because he was playing with the taps. Didn't even seem to notice!

What did the hospital say to you about the reaction to the booster? Are these behaviour changes expected? How awful for you both.

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All sounds quite complicated with break up last year, sister with ADD etc but I think you should look for some help. I'm far from convinced from what you've said that its anything diagnosable, although possibly, but maybe some counselling, careful observation of his behaviour to detect patterns, triggers etc would help. Do ask for some help, if nothing else it sounds like YOU need support. GP any good?

Hi, essbee - have been away this weekend, just got back and will do my best to describe the kind of things your DS did when you were here. (Don't know how helpful it will be - this sort of thing can be very subjective!) Have to say too that I agree with Piffle, he can be v sweet and is very intelligent and articulate. The following are specific drastically unhelpful behaviours - I don't know how these compare with normal just-boy behaviour, only that if my boys behaved in these ways at a similar age they could be reasoned with and diverted and essbee's DS just will not - maybe some of it is actually standard boy behaviour but this is what seemed unusual to me.

OTOH, before I get into the slightly alarming activities, we walked for 10 minutes to a local restaurant and he behaved impeccably on the way there, walked quietly, held hands to cross roads etc and was no trouble at all! (Until we got there, when he started trying to carve the table as essbee describes, and we had to remove all the cutlery from within his reach.)

watching TV with my DS2 and his friend (both 11) he tried to order them to change channel and when they didn't threw a wooden stool at them (and then cried when DS2 came out of the room to complain about the stool and said they were being horrible to him). (Before throwing the stool he threw a remote; and he also removed the Sky card from the digibox and started bending it, although he did put it back when DS2 told him to.)

DS2 twice took him over to the primary school playground with a football, he went eagerly enough but when they got there he just stood and refused to actually play, but when DS2 got fed up with trying to make him join and brought him back be cried again. DS2 is quite used to playing with boys that age, he had a little gang of them at after-school club, and he in particular found essbee's DS very very hard to relate to because of the way he ignores. DS1 (who is 16) found the ignoring quite amusing at the Summer Party, and developed the habit of saying "hello, name" to him repeatedly until he answered. To begin with essbee's DS would refuse to look at him and DS1 had to say it 6 or 7 times to get a response (not shyness, just deliberate refusal to answer) but by the end of the weekend he would look DS1 in the eye and say hello straight away.

in the car on a longish trip he spent nearly all his time poking his sister, pretending he was about to poke his sister, trying to wind her up verbally, kicking the back of essbee's seat and dictating who was allowed to eat which snack. He also dropped his bottle of water on the floor when he was asked to share it, and when it became apparent that nobody could then reach to pick it up again he demanded that the car stop immediately, and went on (and on and on and on) demanding, even though we were on a road where stopping wasn't possible. essbee tries whenever possible to start journeys very early in the morning so that both children will go to sleep ASAP and I could see why! (On the return journey I rearranged the seats so that he was in the very back by himself and couldn't reach anybody's seat to kick or poke; essbee removed his shoes too; he threw a couple of relatively harmless missiles at me when I was driving but after we put some music on quite loudly so that he couldn't needle his sister verbally things settled down quite satisfactorily - it was quite funny...)

The ignoring behaviour is done very deliberately and persistently, rather than just "I want to carry on with what I'm doing". He also spends quite a bit of time trying to upset his sister verbally, she has got very good at carrying on regardless but if he goes on long enough (which he does) she will eventually react.

At the Summer Party though, he spent ages taking the packet of photos of essbee's skydive round to show everybody, and was obviously very proud of her for doing it. I get the impression that he has been affected both by his illness and by what has happened to his family; he is definitely quite angry a lot of the time and will take that out on whoever is in the vicinity. I think it would be very helpful both for him and for essbee if he can be seen by an ed psych or child psych to establish whether he he has started behaving as he does as a way of having some control over what happens to him or whether he has actually got a behavioural disorder...HTH, essbee! You are doing a great job in difficult circs. XXX

blimey, that was long, sorry!

My 2pworth He's always been a "challenge" ever since I first met him when he was ? 2.5? Since then he's had a sister arrive when he was 3.5, ill at 4, his sister was then ill not long afterwards and again gained attention, then once he'd turned 5 I guess things maybe started going wrong at home, by 5.5 family life had all gone pearshaped, by 6 his father had left unwillingly and the atmosphere was, um, acrimonious to say the least... I startd typing this and then realised what a LOT of things have changed in his once secure little life. Compared to my DS1 (year younger) who had a brother arrive at 2, moved house at 3.. that's about it really. I've begun to wonder if it is about attention and confidence.

We've often joked how essbees's son should be hired out as a safety tester when people have children as he can scan a room and identify and exploit 5 weakspots in under 5 minutes. He'll then find the next 5 whilst you're proofing the room against the first batch and move on to another room. I have found that he does listen though - on occasions I've said to him "do you think if you do X that people will want you to come and play?" and whilst he's not seemed to register it then, he's brought the subject up with Essbee later at home.

A lot of his "naughtier" behaviour (for want of a better word) does seem to come about when attention is diverted elsewhere. 5 minutes spent washing up = vaseline used as hairgel, attention given to his sister at her birthday party = fun with the hose in the garden (my ds1 was involved with this) and some other very minor things I can't rememebr now... at his own party he was (iirc) impeccably behaved I think and also when I've picked him up from his after school club he's behaved perfectly in the car and afterwards. I'm sure there are other examples too.

I think he does have problems but I don't think there's anything wrong with him per se. I wonder if he's got stuck onto a spiral and needs lifting out of it. Any one of the things that's happpened over the last 3 years is enough to have affected a child's behaviour and having one on top of the other means he's had no chance to recover, find a new balance in his life and move on. Does that make sense?

Agree with Davros. If you were to look into something other than attention seeking - having read all of these posts- perhaps you should look at ADD, demand avoidance syndrome (itself quite a controversial diagnosis- someone in East Anglia is the expert on that), and maybe oppositional defiance disorder (is that its name?- something like that) or even of course EBD.

However it could be due to his rocky few years. Having a younger brother REALLY affected ds1 - for a long time. Initially he was quite clearly depressed. I'm not sure he's fully accepted him yet. Until about a year ago he used to shudder if ds2 even touched him. He doesn't do that anymore but he will move away form him if he comes close- will very occasionally play with him (or at least laugh with him).

How is he at doing 2 things at once. If engrossed in something ds1 cannot hear what is said to him- he's very mono-chanelled in everything. Thats tends to be a feature of autism, but is also quite common in NT men I find :o

I do think you need to sort out some help for him (and you!). Maybe a referral to a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist would be something to consider as he\she would be able to consider both developmental and/or emotional aspects.

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esbee, I don't think you've failed him. I think you've done your very best to make sure he doesn't have to live with an abusive father. That's got to be a major step on the road to making him happy.

Please try not to beat yourself up about this.
Haven't really got any useful advice to give, but really feel for you, and couldn't bear to think of you sitting there crying feeling bad.

Thinking of you essbee, I wish I could offer some constructive advice but I don't feel qualified. Please don't cry though, you're doing a great job in difficult circumstances, as other people have said. And you will sort this out, I'm sure. Sorry if this sounds platitudinous.

Oh, essbee, please don't feel you've failed him, you are doing a fantastic job with him, and the way his sister deals with him I find really cheering. She doesn't let him get her down and you mustn't either - you will sort him out and things will get better. There is a very nice little boy in there! Chin up.

I don't know your son essbee but just wanted to add that you're doing a great job with both of your children and you seem so full of energy you couldn;t possibly be giving off anything other than positive vibes to your kids.

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essbee, hugs. You obviously care so much. Don't feel guilty. Whatever ups and downs your ds has had, by leaving your dh you are building a stable, peaceful future for him. You are the one who is making that stability a reality for him.

I guess you've already talked to the SENCO at school? I think you should fix an appointment to see them asap once term begins. I think you need more support. The support from our school has been a lifesaver for me.

I've read through janh and soupdragon's messages. I get some of that type of behaviour from my sons at certain times. They are definitely more naughty when they sense my attention is not on them - and remembet my oldest is a mighty 10 years now.. If they had been at the summer camp, general over excitiment, plus lack of sleep (I think they would have found sleeping in a tent so fun they would have slept very badly) plus me chatting to lots of mumsnetters (as I naturally would have done) and not concentrating on them, could easily have tipped them over the edge. TBH this was one reason I didn't go.

They also are more naughty with me than with anyone else..... To give an example. Two weeks ago I took both sons to church. There was no sunday school so they were with me. They were not happy to be in church. The congregation contains many teachers and parents they know. At school, when they have a church assembly they line up, they don't fidgit, they are quiet. I have seen them behave impeccably time and time again. But on this sunday, with me, my 10 year old lay down horizontrally on the church pew, wouldn't join in at all. Kept saying he was bored and kept talk. His brother was intent on climbing under the pew, climbing over me, talking to the people nearby, banging toys around and both boys kept up a playfigthing, teasing game - lots of prods, pokes, pinches and kicks - not vicious but really, really distracting. I couldn't stop them.

This sunday, we went again. DS1 was in the choir (his first time), respendant in cassock, at the front of the church, sitting next to adults. He was a totally different boy. Joined in, didn't put a foot out of place. He really enjoyed it too, he said afterwards. Ds2 was with me. Lots of noise and fidgiting. Grabbed all the nearby cushions and tried to make a tower he could sit on, ran down the length of the aisle during the sermon. I took him out of the church, we went back in, he did the same - totally defiant.

I don't know where this is leading - I'm rambling a bit, but IME, as a mother I get it hard. I get the very worst of their behaviour. But it's something they can switch on and off.

However I get the impression that your son is also feelng very unhappy at times. I can't say that unhappiness is at the root of my sons' behaviour. It doesn't appear so anyway. They are for the most part, cheerfully, smilingly naughty and often quite distractable. So I do think my experience is different to yours. For what it's worth, I really think you should emphasise this aspect to the SENCO or Ed psych when you talk to them.

essbee, I see that most of the posts are trying to convince you that this is a normal child who has been affected by a huge number of upheavals in his short life. To me, his behaviour sounds very much like my DS2, who has ADHD. Esp Janh's description.

Mine was doing the wandering around the classroom thing (which progressed to wandering OUT of the classroom & around a field!). He also has a huge problem with the social side of things. He can MAKE friends but can't keep them & his classmates find him weird. OTOH he can be polite to adults in an almost 18th century way!

At primary school they made him referee of a football game. He took the ball away because the other children weren't playing properly & eventually had to be forcibly removed from the pitch! At 4 he approached a huge gang of teenage louts in a park & told them off for littering...

He can sit for hours focused on a computer game, but can't concentrate in a lesson at school..

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, essbee, but it does ring bells with me. Sorry.