Quick thread - need advice - SALT at 3pm

[lougle]

DD2 had SALT assessment in June. result: General speech/language at/around average. Doesn't initiate conversation and didn't respond to non verbal cues, but school say she's ok, so it's not affecting her.
I complained by email, said concerns weren't with general language (I.e. she can name a girl if shown a picture, etc).

Now, SALT coming today to reassess and observe. She deals with SCD/ASD type stuff.

I've been invited to discuss her findings at 3pm (school finishes 3'30), so under 30 minutes to talk.

Can you lovelies think of all the areas I should highlight?

e.g. Mrs X, ELSA told DD2 she wouldn't see her today because she had a meeting. DD2 smiled with her tongue pushed behind her bottom lip, nodding as Mrs X was telling her. I know Mrs X would think she's fine with it. However, ar breakfast DD2 told me that she was only ok with going to school today because she has Mrs X this afternoon.

TIA

Sounds plausible. It was the fact my DS said would probably look in the other persons box that caught the attention. Because he was clearly showing he actually had no idea what that person would do as much as not understanding that the person didn't realise it had moved iyswim?

Then Lougle, I'm worried that the person tested focused to much on her answer rather than her processing.

She didn't pass the SAlly-Anne test. She didn't even attempt it. The language and semantics got in the way.

She needs a Sally-Anne test without the language requirements.

WELL to be fair, it was me who tried the actual S-A test last year, but the SALT acknowledged that the test she did with the girl and bird was the S-A test in another form.

Lougle - there's 16 (I think it's that many) sally Anne tests called the ToM battery tests. All similar themed. The S-A test is the original one done when ToM was first investigated as related to autism.

Sounds like the bird one is a battery test.

Sorry a quick google just corrected me that they are called ToM task batteries.

Lougle do you know there are different ToM tests? Sally-Anne is first order, dd2 would pass it. But there are second order and third order tests which show difficulty with higher order ToM but ToM nonetheless.

In dd2's ADOS (by which time the dx was a foregone conclusion) Paed asked specialist SALT in passing 'was there any ToM difficulty evident?' Specialist SALT said 'yes I asked dd2 whether she felt her elder sister ever got angry with her, but she just kept complaining about her sister'

Now that's not a raft of evidence, just a snippet that fitted in with everything else. I think once a picture is built the significance of one 'test' on its own becomes less. Building the picture took us over 4 years.

Just wondering if you could enrol your dd2 in a couple of out -of-school clubs to get perspectives of others in your dd2's social interaction? Ethically this is highly dubious, of course. Just wondering what your next strategy should be.

I do think your dd does better in reciprocal conversation than mine - a bit less tangential - but the only difference it makes is to hide her difficulties better.

Ds did the Sally Anne test, I think, is that where the character has a false belief?

www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/liddlenettle.pdf the appendix has some higher level ToM tasks on it that may help. I'm going to do them with DS tomorrow and see what he says!!!!!

Yes claw. It's the one where they have to think as sally and work out where she would think the marble was - or where she'd look for it.

Fab, than you all, will look tomorrow.

Ooh thanks youarewinning, I don't think it was the sally test exactly then, he did ERRNI it incorporates theory of mind as the central character has a false belief.

He was then scored on initial story telling, story telling recall, comprehension, mean length of utterance

waiting for more strawberry icecream is very ds1.

Lougle I am sat here going through ds's SALT reports and trying to see if there is anything that could help you to get your ds's needs identified.

Has a SALT ever observed your ds in the classroom? when I say observed I don't mean for 5 minutes.

I will say that when ds was observed it really showed his functional ability.

He was observed during a literacy lesson (storyboard). All other children joined in the discussion and raised their hands contributing ideas, ds didn't.

When back at the tables, ds spoke a great deal, but did not engage with the task until the TA came over and asked him directly who his character would be he replied 'sponge bob', he was encouraged to use his imagination and think of another. Took a great deal of prompting, before replying 'castle' (naming the picture the girl next to him had started to draw, to add her character to)

After lots more prompting by TA to think of characters associated with a castle, he named 'princess' (again copying what the girl sat next to him had added to her castle by this time)

TA then asked him to name another he replied 'king guard'. TA asked did he mean king or a knight. He looked puzzled by the word 'knight' (thinking night) and replied 'guard'. The TA stayed with him, to talk through what to do next and what to write.

He then drew a picture which he named 'king guard' and wrote underneath 'he has good smarts'. At the end of the lesson, that is all the work that ds had done.

TA then shook a tambourine for children to stop and put hands on heads to show they were listening, ds did not attend.

Yet he had been discharged by school SALT after scoring above average in all formal assessment (90th centile, 84th, 75th etc) about a month before. School reported 'no difficulties' and he was doing totally fine!

Just because others might not see what you see, doesn't mean you've got it wrong.

It's actually scary when you can predict your child's answers!

I don't have the LFT book yet but garbled together a scenario for the ice cream. I asked DS what 'Jessica' could do when no more strawberry. As I predicted he suggested going to another shop!

I filmed him and would like to show you - how do I get films from iPad on here?

Claw- she observed DD2 joining a group session where they shared a dry biscuit. She said DD2 sat down confidently and engaged with another girl, although she didn't know what dd2 actually said to her.

The SALT said that DD2 noticed her frowning when she didn't understand something and clarified (last SALT said she didn't respond to non verbal cues)

youarewinning, you'd need to upload them to youtube/flickr etc., then provide a link to it.

Thanks lougle - I'll give you tube a go.

fingers crossed this works!

Lougle, ds can sit at a table with other children. School regarded this as ds 'joining in' and having 'friends'.

EP also observed ds in the class room during literacy and noted he gave her a big smile and big hug and he was a delightful, gentle, polite and considerate boy, who has a clear idea of what he wants, but does not impose this on others.

She noted when he put his hand up to give an answer his answer did not relate to the key word. He was observed to initiate a number of positive interactions with certain children, but did not follow this through in order to maintain a conversation.

Back at his desk he appeared friendly and considerate towards his partner, allowing him to leaf through the assigned book in order to select the page to work on, even reading and spelling out words for him. Despite his seemingly cooperative behaviour, it was evident that he did not want to work on the same page as his partner, despite her suggestion that it would work best, he smiled but declined politely.

His procrastination and delaying tactics of helping his partner, meant that ds completed no work, as he would not be swayed from his own agenda.

Now school would sing ds's praises for being considerate and kind (in fact they were sure he didn't have ASD at all, because children with ASD cannot appear kind or considerate )

My point of giving you all these examples is that sometimes it can be extremely difficult for others to notice these behaviours, particularly if you child doesn't act in a 'typical' way or show 'typical' signs and has learnt how to stay under the radar, hide it and not attract attention. I believe your dd just hasn't been assessed/observed by the right person

DS will sit on a table with other children and initiate a conversation. It's scripted. I could write it in advance.

But anyone who observed him would think he was engaging well.

The plan, is to move his 'scripted' conversation wider, to cover more subjects. But it will probably always be scripted in that it will have to follow a serious of logic rules i.e. 'If they say this, then ds say that, but if they say the other then ds say this, if they say neither or something different then ds say this other thing, to get you back to options one or two to allow the conversation to get to the next level of ds' script'.

Youarewinning, it works!

Ds would answer the same about ice cream. We have language for thinking another is

On Saturday Ahmed when to the a puppet show. Ahmed was excited. Ahmed went there with his mum. Ahmed's mum bought the tickets. They went and found their seats. There were lots of other people there too. Everyone laughed at the animal puppets.

1. Tell me what happened in the story. Ds 'The boy, I don't know his name went to the cinema, no I mean puppet show. They got 2 tickets, when they found their seats they realised there were lots of people there and they didn't like it'

1. Where are Ahmed and his mum. Ds 'The puppet show, what do you mean, where'

1. Who went with his mum. Ds 'I forgot his name'

1. Who is in the puppet show. Ds 'elephant and giraffe' (it comes with a picture)

1. When did Ahmed go to the puppet show. Ds 'I forgot'

1. Finish this - Ahmed felt very.....' ds 'I forgot'

1. Do they like the puppet show ds 'yes'

why do they like the puppet show ds 'I don't know, what kind of a question is that. That's dumb'

1. How do you know they like it ds 'I told you I don't know, its stupid' (getting angry)

Oh lougle, I'm just catchin up. How frustrating!

FWIW, no one at dd2's school considers her to have issues. She has just plummeted from top of the class and way ahead in maths, to struggling and needing extra support, and school think this is ok. She is likely to do the same in literacy when they formally test her next week. I could weep. We have long expected this day and tried to head it off, but have been ignored by the school and had our observations dismissed. They haven't even had the decency to acknowledge we might have a point now that our predictions are playing out in reality...

I have another meeting scheduled with dd2's teacher next week, but I doubt we'll get anywhere. I am resigned to topping up at home for now (don't have the energy to be arguing with people who a)cannot see what is in front of their face as b) refuse to acknowledge it even when it is pointed out to them, given ds' starts his time in the system next week too)

I'll try that one claw!

Exactly like star said I could have scripted the answer my DS gave - in fact I had predicted above yesterday. I think one of the things with children who have ASD is that you can almost predict what they'll say once you know their unique language patterns. Although my DS not yet dxed.

This morning was another classic

DS asked me to get him some cereal as I was making a coffee. I said he's 9 so could make his own now and gave him a bowl.
Guess the reply"..............? ,!

Ds would reply he would wait until id made my coffee! What did your ds reply?