Senco said my suggested punishment , for ds1, could be 'emotional abuse'.

[Oblomov]

Ds1(nearly 10). Aspergers.
Trouble in the summer, he spent money on internet.
Rude and shows me little respect, answering me back etc.

He is seeing the school counsellor, who I am not that impressed with.

He had a squint, and wore glasses 24/7 for 5 years. Then, this summer, he was told he only need to wear them for close up work. Not 24/7.
He lied to his teacher telling her he didn't need to wear his glasses anymore, at all. Even though I sent in a note, saying, close up work, which he didn't give to her.
He wasn't wearing them at all.I found out. Happened again.
I told him, if he couldn't be trusted to wear them, for close up work, he would have to go back to wearing them 24/7 again.

So yesterday I found out he hadn't worn them for 3 days.

I told him he would have to wear them 24/7. As agreed. He cried and pleaded. I said no. I will talk to Dad. I left the room. He ran after me, crying and pleading. No I said.

Then he pleaded and pleaded and I lost my cool. I really shouted. "Enough I said, you will wear them, because I have said so. That's is the end of it".

(He is very vain, hates wearing glasses and was the only boy who wore glasses in his year. He has been teased about it.)

"I knew you would do this. Shout at me. The counsellor said you would. She told me that you are unfair and unjust to me. "

That pushed me over the edge. Now I've got the counsellor undermining my parenting.

He is a martyr. Thinks that I am too tough on him. Whatever he has told the counsellor. He thinks she has said that she believes him, she is validating his feelings that I treat him unfairly.

She may not have said that. But that is what he THINKS.

Dh came home.

Ds is very vain recently. and has grown his hair longer. All the boys now flick their fringes, regularly and think this is cool.

Dh says , I told you that I wouldn't put up with you being rude to mummy. The way you speak to her is not ok. You don't treat her nicely, or with respect.

You have now been seeing the counsellor for 6 weeks, and it isn't getting any better. I told you that if this continued, that I would cut your hair. Cut the long fringe off. Because I know you love it. You don't seem to care about losing tv or dvd's, but you do care about your hair. But I told you that I would. Shave your head ( we always used to get the clippers out and shave dh, ds1 and ds2, on a long setting, an inch long).

I threatened this to you, shaving your head. And you've been rude to mummy again.
Dh said, ' if you are not careful, I really am going to shave you head boy. You need to think about this.

Ds1 was upset in school. Not himself, said teacher. He told her that daddy had threatened to shave his head.
Senco called me in.
Saying that if we did, he would never forgive us. And that we would have nowhere left to go, with punishments.

She said "it could be considered as emotional abuse"

I do hear what she is saying, about him hating it so much, he would never forgive. And I do appreciate the bit of, if we did do it, we would have nowhere left to go.

But I took offence, or didn't like her comment about it being 'emotional abuse'

Or do you think she is right?

But I've already tried them. 3 times and they were completely ineffective.
Plus, when I was given them, I was told I was not depressed.
I have assessed many times. Twice recently. And told I was not depressed.
So how would AD's help?

OK, I understand. In that case, you have to take a deep breath and go back to the GP and say you aren't coping and need a re-referral to CAMHS. If your son was seen there in the last six months, you shouldn't have to wait so long.

I know you feel you have exhausted them, but staff change and you may be referred to someone more helpful this time. With my DS1, we had to go back to CAMHS several times before we finally got someone who could help him. DS1 was discharged more than once and we knew we'd have to take him back. It was exhausting to have to keep going back and asking for second opinions, etc., but it got us what we needed eventually.

Their lack of money should not be your problem. Make a nuisance of yourself. Enlist the help of PALS if you get fobbed off again.

ADs tend to help regulate mood when people are under severe stress.
There are many different types and some work for some people and not for others and at different doses etc. They often take a lot of fiddling with to work. They don't work for everyone nor every situation but essentially they do dampen feelings of despair in most situations regardless of why those feelings have arisen. Clearly people who have just suffered bereavement or the break up of a relationship are not ill, but many offer and take ADs.

It may be that you are eating well, sleeping well etc but the way you are writing about your son does not suggest you are in the best mental state to be honest. Particularly the sort of negative trapped despairing blaming stuff... this is not to say the situation isn't independently dreadful beyond belief but I am hearing hopelessness and despair. When you are assessed for depression etc are you actively saying 'I see no way out' and saying he is making your diabetes worse etc? Or like my friend do you paint a picture that's more optimistic than you truly feel?

I will be honest here and say I don't particularly see a lot of depression as an illness until it is extremely severe and even then not always... and I say this as someone who has been there and worn the t-shirt. It's like rage without the enthusiasm, anguish, hopelessness, seeing no way out, feeling like you are drowning in the stuff of your own life... in my experience there are really very few people who arrive at that point just because of some strange chemical shenanigans in their brain. Most people have the life stories/trauma/complicated circumstances/months and years of unrelenting stress to go with it. We just happen to live in a time where we arbitrarily term some people's distress understandable and others as illness often based on very limited information and assessment so unless you actively say I feel my world is going to shit and I can't cope or see any hope anymore no one is going to say you are depressed.

It's all words anyway. One way or another you need a way out of this... and somehow the strength to do it. I'm not actually saying ADs are the answer... but just that there is always an answer and right now you can't see it because you are depleted.

I don't know if the gp is the answer, but I have been told many times that things wouldn't happen, but did because I pushed for it. Not saying you haven't already done that. My gp has written to various people on my behalf and its moved things along.

Also recently I realised ds pead could not see something obvious to me - because I had never told her. I am a reasonably clever person but she could not read my mind. Being totally transparent helped her see the in tire picture

Also no one here is a expert but we have all been in a hard place. Lots of us are still in a hard place and will be for a long time to come. People here are talking from experience of what's worked for them.

What can we do that's going to help you? People want to help. That's why we stick around on here. To be helped and share what works

Thank you for your posts.
I have done something.
I have ordered the explosive child.
Printed off the explosive child spread-sheets in the meantime.
And ordered the aspergers childrens toolkit.
Am looking at the Dawn Huebner stuff. But didn't know which to order first. Any advice?

Yes keep posting, it's a lonely place to be but we do understand

Sorry if this is late to the discussion op.
I really feel for you.

When my ASD ds1 aged 11 hits me etc I do try and channel the 'he doesn't know what to do and he does love me' thoughts because I believe them, he'd be totally lost without me and his dad, we facilitate his life and he is very bonded to us. However, he rejects us every day, often several times and deliberately (learned patterns) winds us up-I think it's very compulsive with him.

It has helped removing any heat from us .. it's so wearing with shouting. I don't shout at the kids I teach and I can't believe I did shout at my own kids. It wore us and the other kids out and achieved nothing.
Punishment also does nothing. The only thing I will do is not take him somewhere if I feel I can't trust he'll behave - it's not fair on the other people there.

Ridiculous as it sounds, I just have to not take it personally, he tantrums if he has to eat near me or walk down the street on his own with me, he says really offensive things to me - but he is compelled to do this and all I can do is try and help him find another way, give him options. Unpicking what he dislikes about something often presents the solution. Talking about how he feels when he says awful stuff helps because I can ask him if he's feeling whatever and then push him towards a distraction activity instead.

We do talk with him a lot about how he loves us so don't hurt us. I have made a list of stuff he can do instead that he likes eg have a bath, trampoline, play binweevils and he has started to look at it in the midst of a tantrum because he doesn't like having them either. Finding like minded people for him to hang out with at the NAS youth club has helped his self esteem too - they take their low self esteem out on us to and my ds1 feels so different that he has really liked meeting other kids with ASD.

Sorry if all that's been said already.
I hope you're ok.

Really sorry to hear you’re in such a hard place. You’ve had lots of good advice, just wanted to say you sound like a very loving Mum doing your best.

From my own experience… to be honest, I never found punishments worked for getting my DS to do what I wanted anyway. I could punish him for doing a bad thing, but not for not-doing-good-stuff if you see what I mean! The two things that did (sometimes) work were: thinking up ways to make it easier for him to do what I wanted, and giving him little rewards.

I like Explosive Child too and hope it helps. And whatever you do I’m hoping you find a way through all this.

I haven't read the whole thread but I agree with your SENCo and actually i think you have to stop threatening him with these extremes and explain stuff to him. He doesn't know why he has to wear glasses. If he was told if you don't wear them for clse up he might have to wear thm all the time and rewarded when he wears them for say Literacy and maths. The hair thing is unfair. He might scream. Are you honestly going to hold him down? It's great that your husband is supportive but you sound as rigid and black and white in thinking as your aspie son. Consistency is great when matched with reasonableness.

Thank heavens for the Senco.

Now read whole thread. Was a bit harsh but am currently working with a child who is very similar to your son and utterly obnoxious to mum. Their relationship is zero so it pressed a few buttons for me as the situation is deeply frustrating and, like your senco, often wonder whether some of what happens counts as emotional abuse.

He's clearly can't express his emotions except by being awful to you. He does well at school as does the pupil I work with but perhaps it explodes a bit at home because he can't see your point of view and, sorry, I think you have a bit of a blindness about his. I think you need some support. Parenting an aspie is bloody hard and I've been pretty crap at it myself from time to time so sending you good vibes for an improvement.

You sound ready to break actually

Hi OP

My initial post wasn't overly helpful to you - I reacted to your reacting.

I have been at near rock bottom (for completely different life reasons to yours) and I'm sorry you are staring into the abyss.

I've only just started on the SN journey and don't know if this is going to be helpful - we don't' have a firm diagnosis yet but there is no denying DS is not an NT child - but you describe your school as similar to mine. I have talked to other mums in our area who confirm that our school is shit when it comes to SN and yesterday I spoke to DS's old teacher who was amazing as was the whole school with recognising SN and taking matters into their own hands to help as much as they could...and her point-blank opinion is that if you are getting no-where with your school don't even waste your time, energy and other precious reserves on them because no tribunal in the world is going to get them to change their attitude even if they are forced to change their service for a child.

Can you find a school that is on board? Is changing school a possibility? It seems to me that school being supportive and pro-active could be a massive help to you all and one less "arena" you have to battle in.

I can't change schools. He only has 1 more year there, after this yr(yr5).
Ds2 has just started there.
I put his name down, to 2 different schools , 2 years ago. I was 15th in line. Now 10th.
How can I move?

Presumably if he had a statement you could name a school and get priority but whether there is much point going through this and facing the disruption before applying to secondary is debatable.

good luck with everything op xxx

Medical and social needs priority admissions criteria. Not all schools have it but when they do, it usually comes just before or after sibling preference.

Example

I don’t know about the rest of the school but your SENCO sounds pretty good. It must have been a horrible thing to hear but she did give you an honest wake-up call about how much damage it would do to your DS if you did cut his hair. And even though it hurt you’ve been a total hero and listened to her.

And I know what your son said about the counsellor was really bad but I’d put money the counsellor didn’t really say all of that! It sounds as if she is taking his feelings very seriously, at a time when it’s hard for you to accept his feelings because his way of expressing them is so aggressive and you’re so exhausted and worn down and worried about him. I am sure he appreciates being listened to and taken seriously. That will help him to put his feelings and wishes into better words.

It may be easier for a counsellor to accept the painful feelings behind his angry clumsy words. For years I was the only child in my primary school year who wore glasses. There nothing my Mum could have done about it, I needed the glasses and I was younger than your DS and very compliant, so I wore them, but I was also struggling badly to fit in socially. I can’t tell you how wretched those glasses made me feel. I don’t like to think about it too much, even now nearly 50 years later. Sometimes he must feel as helpless and desperate as you do.

The SENCO and the counsellor are not undermining your relationship with your son, sounds to me as if they are both trying to help you maintain a good relationship with him.

Oh Oblomov, what a dreadful time you are having. It must be very difficult to find something that will have an effect on your DS that matters to him. Aside from punishments, is there anything he would love as a reward? That he could work towards by following a target at home - I will try to speak politely to adults - or similar? Or maybe you have already tried this?

Just going back to the glasses, I wonder how much it matters if he doesn't wear them regularly on small stuff? The optician told me not to use my reading glasses unless I really had to (and not to go up a strength) as my eyes would get lazier. But maybe it's different for children?

I would make sure anything of importance is communicated to the school by you/your DH directly so that they know exactly what should be happening with him. I would also arrange for regular meetings/phone calls to check on how he is getting on and how you can all work together to help him.
Would it be possible to discuss the situation with him - get him to help to find something that would work to improve things, like a reward for being polite to you, etc?

Any possibility that he could have contacts? Any chance that "if you show us that you can wear your glasses when you need them then we could get contact lenses before you go to secondary school” would work? Or is that impossible or beyond his abilities?

I think it is worth noting that the NHS Map of Medicine care path recommends statementing for ASD. With regard to ASD:

"•needs should be documented in a statement of special educational needs (SEN):
•the local education authority should provide for the needs identified in this statement
•the child’s progress can be reviewed through an individual education plan
•approaches that focus on social functioning should be introduced as an on-going intervention strategy from early years to adulthood

•inclusion of children with ASD in mainstream schools:
?some children cope with good support
?some studies have found that social isolation, loneliness, and bullying are commonplace for pupils with ASD who attend mainstream schools"

Also look at the DfE stats of how many children with different diagnoses have statements or are on SA+. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/225699/SFR30-2013_Text.pdf

The vast majority of DC diagnosed with ASD have a statement. This does not happen automatically and in most cases and schools rarely apply themselves. LAs and schools will try it on but ultimately they will fail.

Focus on what DS needs. He needs a statement. If his needs are met, the pressure on you will reduce. The best way to help yourself is to help him. Don't run yourself ragged trying to make good the failures of others.

To me, realising that I didn't like DS1, was hitting rock bottom. He couldn't repair the miscommunication that was then part of our relationship. I couldn't expect him to meet me half-way. I had to do it. It is difficult with 'invisible' disabilities. I would always ask myself whether I would feel justified in feeling angry and blaming him if he, say, had not yet toilet trained even though his peers had.