Senco said my suggested punishment , for ds1, could be 'emotional abuse'.

[Oblomov]

Ds1(nearly 10). Aspergers.
Trouble in the summer, he spent money on internet.
Rude and shows me little respect, answering me back etc.

He is seeing the school counsellor, who I am not that impressed with.

He had a squint, and wore glasses 24/7 for 5 years. Then, this summer, he was told he only need to wear them for close up work. Not 24/7.
He lied to his teacher telling her he didn't need to wear his glasses anymore, at all. Even though I sent in a note, saying, close up work, which he didn't give to her.
He wasn't wearing them at all.I found out. Happened again.
I told him, if he couldn't be trusted to wear them, for close up work, he would have to go back to wearing them 24/7 again.

So yesterday I found out he hadn't worn them for 3 days.

I told him he would have to wear them 24/7. As agreed. He cried and pleaded. I said no. I will talk to Dad. I left the room. He ran after me, crying and pleading. No I said.

Then he pleaded and pleaded and I lost my cool. I really shouted. "Enough I said, you will wear them, because I have said so. That's is the end of it".

(He is very vain, hates wearing glasses and was the only boy who wore glasses in his year. He has been teased about it.)

"I knew you would do this. Shout at me. The counsellor said you would. She told me that you are unfair and unjust to me. "

That pushed me over the edge. Now I've got the counsellor undermining my parenting.

He is a martyr. Thinks that I am too tough on him. Whatever he has told the counsellor. He thinks she has said that she believes him, she is validating his feelings that I treat him unfairly.

She may not have said that. But that is what he THINKS.

Dh came home.

Ds is very vain recently. and has grown his hair longer. All the boys now flick their fringes, regularly and think this is cool.

Dh says , I told you that I wouldn't put up with you being rude to mummy. The way you speak to her is not ok. You don't treat her nicely, or with respect.

You have now been seeing the counsellor for 6 weeks, and it isn't getting any better. I told you that if this continued, that I would cut your hair. Cut the long fringe off. Because I know you love it. You don't seem to care about losing tv or dvd's, but you do care about your hair. But I told you that I would. Shave your head ( we always used to get the clippers out and shave dh, ds1 and ds2, on a long setting, an inch long).

I threatened this to you, shaving your head. And you've been rude to mummy again.
Dh said, ' if you are not careful, I really am going to shave you head boy. You need to think about this.

Ds1 was upset in school. Not himself, said teacher. He told her that daddy had threatened to shave his head.
Senco called me in.
Saying that if we did, he would never forgive us. And that we would have nowhere left to go, with punishments.

She said "it could be considered as emotional abuse"

I do hear what she is saying, about him hating it so much, he would never forgive. And I do appreciate the bit of, if we did do it, we would have nowhere left to go.

But I took offence, or didn't like her comment about it being 'emotional abuse'

Or do you think she is right?

Sorry that you're having such a shit time.

I haven't seen your other thread with helpful links from posters, but do try to look at them, it all [things with your DS] doesn't have to be this hard.

If you adapt your mindset, things will be much easier, I agree that you are being combatative and that will never make things anything other than hard.

I read your post in shock.

Like many other posters, I am very concerned that you don't see how your attitude towards your son could be.

For him to remember to wear his glasses at some points but not others will be very difficult for him. He needs an adult to tell him 'Now is the time you need your glasses', and to be praised when he does remember, not punished when he doesn't.

His 'rudeness' was in retaliation to your over the top response to his not wearing his glasses, and yet your DH came in and threatened even more punishment. I feel very sorry for your DS.

I'm wondering if, in any of the many parenting courses you've attended, you learnt to explain and discuss things calmly with your children, rather than simply punishing them?

You poor thing

The trouble is, (or rather some of the trouble) as someone else has intimated, what constitutes "close work?" I'm imagining my class at the moment: working at exercise books at their tables, tick. Working at a laptop, tick. Out at PE or gym in the hall, cross. But what about sitting in the carpet, working from the Interactive White Board and using their individual whiteboards and markers? Or watching a video clip for topic or science? Or reading from a PowerPoint?

And this is why you need to find methods of dealing with him which don't involve a battle of wills. I refrained from saying it will make you ill, when I replied, earlier. It's clearly not doing you any good :(

I've just read your latest post, and I'm sorry that your diabetes is bad, but you say in that post that DS1 is the only source of stress in your life, and that he makes it worse. I should think that he is aware you feel like this, and feels pretty rotten himself.
Is there any way you can spend time just with him, and rediscover the things that you love about him? I bet there are some wonderful things about your son that you are not seeing at the moment, because you're overwhelmed by everything else.
I'm sure things will get better if you could find a way to talk to him, and engage with him, so that he feels more able to talk to you about things that are bothering him, without them getting to this stage.

And he is the only source of stress in my life. He makes my diabetes unmanageable.

Really? How can your son be to blame for making your diabetes unmanageable?

And the diabetes itself is a source of stress, surely? Not just your son?

Do you really dislike the school counsellor? Because the best thing you can do is work with her.

You are heaping a great deal on the shoulders of a nine year old with SN.

Oblomov I'm sorry life's really crap right now, but your son honestly doesn't need the only thing he cares about destroying, by the people who should care about what that would do to him, and he isn't whats pushing you to your limits, his 'crimes' aren't actually very big at all in the big scheme of things.
What would you do if he did something really wrong?

He needs to be helped to understand what's wrong with what he's done and not done, and what the actual consequences of his actions are, not subjected to revenge punishments.

What's pushing you to your limits sounds like a lot of very miserable frightening health problems and stress, topped of by being unable to control anything, but probably feeling responsible for everything, and at the end of your tether, which is why over severe, and yes emotionally abusive, ideas seem reasonable and when everyone's said in unison no, senco's right here, you've argued why she and everyone else is wrong.

If you've done four parenting courses but can't see this would be emotionally abusive, then something's blinding you to it. Please trust the people telling you this, no one here has a reason to lie to you do they?

When DS1, who is 10 next week, is really pushing us to our limits (and trust me, he can - quite a lot of us here have DCs who can present with some very challenging behaviour when the wind's blowing the wrong way - sometimes literally) we usually step back and remind ourselves that he's just a little boy. And a frightened one, at that.

I think one of the key things is to ask 'Why' a child is doing the things they do. If you can answer the 'why' question, what to do about it usually follows.

So, in the case of DS and his glasses, the reason why could be that he feels embarrassed, in which case, maybe a new, stylish pair would help, and the teacher could definitely be brought on board to do some work on 'cool people who wear glasses'. If the reason is that he gets teased, that is certainly something school can deal with. If it's because he lacks the ability to decide when he should wear them, and so simply doesn't get round to putting them on, then he needs some prompts.

I think children do well when they can do well, and your DS can't be any different to that. He needs to be understood, and to have his needs met.

Could you maybe think that your ds is in reality half his age? I do this with my boy as he IS like a three year old in many ways. Talking, reasoning like he is six isn't right for him as inside his big six year body is a little scared toddler.

Every day is hard work, but it's never intentional. He's just a scared confused little kid. Maybe try to see him at his weeks spot? That helps me to keep calm and when I explain to him like he is three he understands.

It really is hard. There is no easy answer. You just find what works for you. With my ds he performs better when he's happy so I avoid confrontation.

Everyone wants to help you here I'm sure as you sound exhausted

I do the same as 2boysnamedR. I can see that DS struggles with some situations, and at those times, he behaves in the way a four year old would do (he's 10).

Imagining him as a four year old really helps, especially at school, where he is expected to get along with and do the same things as the other ten year olds. No wonder he struggles at times.

I can see where you are coming from with the glasses...but, I think you need to sit down with him and come up with a lust of what counts as close work, share that with the teacher...print it and laminate it if need be so they have something to check when a new activity is started.

Remind him that if he doesn't wear his glasses when he's supposed to that he will have to go back to wearing them all the time, not as a punishment, not just because you said so, but because the consequences of not wearing them is that his eyes will be damaged.

Logical, natural consequences and a way of checking whether they can be off or need to be on at that present moment in time.

But, his hair? I know you're stressed and are clearly going through a hard time, but I'm pretty sure if you weren't you'd realise how horrific an idea that is.

My DS has AS and couldn't care less about his hair, he'd still be traumatised by having it forceably cut as a punishment.

Also - if he isn't doing something he should at school - that's down to school. You can't stress / micro manage school. Have a face to face meeting with the senco. Say how important the glasses are. Then ask for a home contact book. Start small. If the glasses are the issue of the week - did he wear them when you asked him too? If not work on the school " I'm sorry the home contact book isn't working can we have a two minute catch up on the glasses at the end of the day for a week?"

I think maybe it's just the last straw? But you can't fight it all in one go. You can normalise it. Can use normal parenting techniques. It's unique. He's unique.

Another sn mum said to me on Monday "I did xyz and it filled off the edges" I get that. My ds is square peg in a round world. I can file off his edges but he will never be a circle.

The first step ( and at ten I know you know this) is say "it's ok" it's ok he is never going to be like other kids. It just so for many reasons can not ever be so. But it can be ok. Just find that button. The one to get him to come round to you because he wants to. Not easy I know but worth the try. Maybe trying to pleasechim to get him on side can't be worse than where you are now?

Sorry I mean can't normalise and can't use the normal parenting techniques

Like tabulahrasa, I see where you're coming from with the glasses. If he can't reliably put them on/take them off independently, he'll have to go back to wearing them all the time. And since the chances of him being a)motivated and b)able to do so and c)not losing them are 0.1%, it's fair enough to give him the logical consequence (not punishment) of glasses.

Once he's kept them on reliably for a set time, you can negotiate taking them off for (say) break and lunchtime. If the teacher backs you up, reminds him, laminated cards and the rest and that all goes well, then he can try removing them for PE. And so on

Now, hair. I do see what you're getting at re parents being 'in charge' of hairstyles, and schools not permitting trendy fringes anyway. I don't know what age the 'hairstyle as a human right' thing kicks off. There was a London school which banned boys having braided hair, I think they feared a gang fashion thing. But a year 7 child took them to court and won.

Anyway, as mentioned already, the AS fringe is a well-known coping mechanism- looks cool and lets you hide / avoid eye contact. If he's heavily relying on it at school, it means he's badly struggling there. So chopping the hair will further increase his stress levels, which will make him even more oppositional, and so is likely to be counter-productive

At the moment, you've got totally stuck with behaviour management, and he's spiralling worse and worse. And it's nicely driving a wedge between you& his dad (aka bad guys) and school (aka good guys) while he gets more and more unhappy and difficult (aka martyr).

Unfortunately, the SN are not going anywhere. And your health is not good enough to have the situation stay as it is. So something needs to change. The 'best' change would be if you guys and school could start presenting him with a united front (can be done, even if, behind closed doors, you're anything but united: think well-managed divorced couple)

I don't know where in the country you are, but if you and someone from school could go together on this or something similar, you might start to make progress. Some places have good CAMHS services which do similar. The explosive child book is as good as Polter says, if not better. 123 magic is very good as a supplement to it, and some areas actually run 123Magic training for their schools.

The basic underlying problem with the current approach is that punishment is simply not effective in impulsive, oppositional ASD type children anyway. The reason it 'works' on NT dc is not the punishment itself, it's the fear of it. They remember that the parent has threatened them, and been angry with them. They feel anxious because of that. They then do the 'right' thing because it keeps those two nasty internal states at bay, replacing them with nice states.

Like this, "I could kick off and throw my food. But that will cause problems so I'll do something else. I'm eating my dinner nicely, and so mummy looks happy [fear of mum's anger gone]. I'm eating my dinner nicely, and so my pudding isn't going in the bin [fear of icecream deprivation gone]"

A dc like my ds (and I suspect yours too) just can't hold on to a mental process of that complexity. Even if yours could, the immediate rewards of challenging behaviour are simply too great to compete.

Giving in to his strong, oppositional, impulsive urges; triggering the reassuringly predictable mummy-freakout response; relieving the build-up of stress with a big noisy row; making mum too tired to enforce homework; terrorising siblings so they won't hassle him... and that's just for starters. Given his anxiety is always at 80%+, threats of punishment simply push it up to 95%, at which point his ability for any functional communication has gone altogether, and he isn't safe to be in the same room as anyone else in the family.

I really feel for you.

DD wouldn't wear her glasses for a while and it is the most stressful thing ever.

I get ya x

Agree with what others have said re inappropriate punishment. I also know what I feels like to lose perspective, as I'm sure many others on this thread do too. It's so hard. I have constant rudeness too. Think 2boys is absolutely right when she says to imagine your DS half his age. When my 9yo DS with AS has been violent towards me he seems older and bigger than he really is, and certainly more so than he is emotionally. After a day when DS has been violent and rude, and I feel exhausted and angry, I have to remind myself of his vulnerability. Thus may seem weird but watching him sleep helps regain that sense that he is little, vulnerable and that I must protect him and be his biggest supporter, despite what I've been through that day. But it's so hard and you have my sympathy..

Just one more thing. If school were to suggest a CAF and/or a referral to social services, please jump up and grab it with both hands. There's no way on earth they'd volunteer to take a disabled child with significant challenging behaviours into (ruinously expensive) specialist foster care or (even more expensive) independent residential school.

So if the LA were aware that poor health/ despair/ lack of obvious options is driving you towards a safeguarding investigation (expensive process in itself, even if case then closed), they might well offer a little bit of cheap assistance now. It sounds like you're getting zero respite hours currently, which isn't right, given your health. And yes, I know you do have a DH, but for many women, that doesn't mean you actually get any time off.

Your previous posts were crammed with good ideas and sensible suggestions, and in these you sound very different: some distance beyond the end of your tether, and unable to see that you've now gone way past your coping limit. And I'm not saying that in a judgey way: been there, done that, thankfully it was noticed quickly, before I'd wrecked ds head (or mine) too badly. I was being firmly booted back from the brink by a couple of RL people. And I'm still having the counselling and happy pills to stop me going back there, cos it was horrible.

It's possible your ds is also getting some square peg/ round hole mainstream-school stress, and that later, you may need to find the energy for Tribunal. But right now you need some time off, some effective behaviour strategies, and a united front with school.

I feel for you so much...and for DS...is it possible he's getting picked on about his glasses again? Can you ask his teacher to remind him to put them on and take them off again?

I have a 5y year old who needs them for close work and it's a royal pain getting her to remember....5 of course is different to 10 but maybe you're overestimating his self management skills? Personally I'd be talking to his teacher in person to ensure nobody is poking fun at him and also that he wears them when he's writing or reading etc. It's not much out of her day to say "X, glasses on please" is it?

Oh and please don't cut his hair. it's something which gives him confidence by the sound of it.